The 62kWh Battery Topic

[cwerdna]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/NissanLeafOwners/posts/6811538335610764?comment_id=6836819419749322 is probably the worst Plus I've heard of. He's down 2 capacity bars. It seems he has a '19 SV Plus in Arizona which it seems he bought used w/lots of miles on it already. At https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1355492645373124&set=p.1355492645373124&type=3, he posts LeafSpy SOH of 74.75%.

On March 1, 2023, he posted https://www.facebook.com/groups/NissanLeafOwners/posts/6160673847363886/ showing it at 81.34%.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It's a standard 3 stops for the 580 miles. You can technically do it in 2, but it's likely slower. Skokie to World's largest truck stop. Then to Bevington IA, finally a top up in Bethany MO.

Sadly my adult children denied me the seat in the Leaf and they did the run while the wife and I took the Rogue.

The impression you are cultivating is based on erroneous assumptions that heat is the prime degrading factor as it is NOT. It is SOC management. On long trips, your SOC is high when you leave your home and basically nowhere else. Charging on the road, you get to what? 85, 90% maybe (if that high) and you are there for what... 30 mins? 40 mins before you are back to the 60's?

On your next trip, track your SOC minute by minute. I know that "sounds" hard but its not. Simply track starting/ending SOC with driving time. You will find your average SOC to be quite reasonable despite the charging sessions.

I find it weird to see that many will choose to believe others when they have completely discounted Nissan's rather extensive testing concerning battery temperatures. But then again, like "any" messaging campaign, we more readily accept the majority opinion over a highly controlled scientific study due solely to exposure. IOW; a single study has no chance against a large number or fallacies...

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Dave

Good call out. My statement was meant to be taken in jest, but sentiment is sometimes lost in the written word.

Good idea about soc on our next trek. For SOC l, when going west, first charge is usually to 90%-92% , 2nd stop is to 80-90% depending on meal length and final stop to 70-80% based on time of year.

Going east has not followed a consistent pattern.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Dave

Good call out. My statement was meant to be taken in jest, but sentiment is sometimes lost in the written word.

Good idea about soc on our next trek. For SOC l, when going west, first charge is usually to 90%-92% , 2nd stop is to 80-90% depending on meal length and final stop to 70-80% based on time of year.

Going east has not followed a consistent pattern.

#1 on the LEAF Spy Wishlist; Average SOC tabulated "by the minute" between charge sessions.

 

[knightmb]

I finally surpassed my 2013 Leaf in Mileage. For reference, when I traded in my 2013, it had 75,679 miles with a battery SoH of 72.11%. It served me well all those years never asking for anything more than tires and windshield wiper fluid. I did upgrade to a 12V LiFePO4 battery in early 2015, so I still have that same 12V battery today in my 2020 Leaf (no way I was going to part with it during the trade-in) that continues to serve me well and trouble-free. My latest trip today was +400 miles, only needed one charging stop to complete it. As you can see from the screenshot, my 2020 battery is holding a respectable 90.29% SoH @ 75,772 miles. :mrgreen:

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Your battery looks great. I tend to believe road trips are good for battery health.

 

[knightmb]

Your battery looks great. I tend to believe road trips are good for battery health.

I does seem to help (just my experience) as I do a lot of those every week (hence the high mileage for such a short time of ownership) You can see that after 400 miles in which a QC was done in the middle (charged to 90% by accident because I was eating lunch & don't like watching the EA app), landed on the battery reaching just shy of 100F temperature at the end of the trip. Granted, when I started the trip, the battery was roughly 70F due to a cold night before the trip started in the morning. When I drive from my home to Knoxville, it's roughly a +200 mile trip, uphill the entire way. I'm lucky to get 3.8 m/kWh moving at 70 mph the entire trip non-stop (unless traffic). So it takes leaving my home with a 100% SoC to arrive with some buffer in Knoxville after a +3.5 hour drive due to the +7,700 ft elevation climb :shock:
The drive back is all downhill so the same trip back, I get 4.5 m/kWh doing the same speed of 70 mph. That only takes my Leaf needing about a 80% SoC to make the trip with some buffer for detours or unknowns along the way for the same +200 miles back.

 

[Learjet]

Here is my update, the cells with the lower voltage were replaced...overall range is still great.

Click For Full-Size Image.

 

[Andrey]

Sorry if it was answered in those 135 pages of this topic - but is there an definite conclusion if it fine from SOH perspective to charge 62kwh battery to 100% given that Nissan only makes 56kwh of it available? Of course I'm losing all/part of regen while SOC drops to 90% and using brake pads/disks instead.

 

[knightmb]

Sorry if it was answered in those 135 pages of this topic - but is there an definite conclusion if it fine from SOH perspective to charge 62kwh battery to 100% given that Nissan only makes 56kwh of it available? Of course I'm losing all/part of regen while SOC drops to 90% and using brake pads/disks instead.

Depends on the year model. When mine was new, it would max out at around 56.5 kWH for a full charge, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. I QC frequently and also charge to 100% frequently, but never both at the same time. I also don't let my Leaf sit at 100% SoC for long unless I plan on using it right away (like a road trip), otherwise, I keep it between 75% and 85% most of the time. The newer models still seem to be 62 kWh battery packs, even though Nissan advertises them as 60 kWh :? but they also charge to higher capacity as I've seen many LeafSpy screenshots of the newer packs being +59 kWh @ 100% SoC. Battery technology moves forward, but I have no idea if my 100% SoC is as detrimental to long life as 100% SoC on the newer Leaf models. :x

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Sorry if it was answered in those 135 pages of this topic - but is there an definite conclusion if it fine from SOH perspective to charge 62kwh battery to 100% given that Nissan only makes 56kwh of it available? Of course I'm losing all/part of regen while SOC drops to 90% and using brake pads/disks instead.

Depends on the year model. When mine was new, it would max out at around 56.5 kWH for a full charge, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. I QC frequently and also charge to 100% frequently, but never both at the same time. I also don't let my Leaf sit at 100% SoC for long unless I plan on using it right away (like a road trip), otherwise, I keep it between 75% and 85% most of the time. The newer models still seem to be 62 kWh battery packs, even though Nissan advertises them as 60 kWh :? but they also charge to higher capacity as I've seen many LeafSpy screenshots of the newer packs being +59 kWh @ 100% SoC. Battery technology moves forward, but I have no idea if my 100% SoC is as detrimental to long life as 100% SoC on the newer Leaf models. :x

Rest assured, it IS detrimental. Will it affect you? Depends on what you want out of the car.

A recent article of several Teslas checked after 5 years of ownership and the "winner" one with 135,000 miles at 95% SOC.

Owner states that charge limit is set to 80% all the time except for road trips. Likely higher than necessary considering the many options Tesla provides but still a lot of miles in 5 years so very well could be what he needed daily.

As LEAFers we have a "somewhat" larger challenge managing SOC since we can only use timers but in the short time I've been on TOU, it has really been "nearly" a nothing thing. I have 2 timers, one is basically the "commute" timer and only plug in every other day (charges 1½ hours and then my "weekend" timer I use for my 3 days off. Its a 3 hour timer. SOC runs from 30 to 70%

Has all this "work" been worth it?

Too early to tell. I am just under 50,000 miles coming up on 4 years in a few weeks which will likely be around the time of my 3rd crossing below 92% SOC.

To give you an idea of "linearity" I project my mileage to 80% SOC and it has ranged from as low as 56,000 miles to well over 100,000 miles as it sits today. Next adjustment ~Jan 9th

 

[knightmb]

Rest assured, it IS detrimental. Will it affect you? Depends on what you want out of the car.

I'm sure it is technically, but my 2020 is leaps and bounds over my 2013 doing the same thing I already do in the same climate, same area, etc. I was never nice to my 2013, but I find it harder to be "mean" to my 2020 because of the increased range. Now that I've surpassed the mileage of my 2013, I'm waiting for my 2020 to have some major drop in capacity, but so far so good. Either my use case for the Leaf is the most ideal in the world or I just got lucky the day my battery was put together at the factory.

A recent article of several Teslas checked after 5 years of ownership and the "winner" one with 135,000 miles at 95% SOC.

Owner states that charge limit is set to 80% all the time except for road trips. Likely higher than necessary considering the many options Tesla provides but still a lot of miles in 5 years so very well could be what he needed daily.

I am glad (even if it wasn't a Leaf) that there are good case studies out there for the battery technology. As the owner of many vehicles, both small and large over the decades and being the only one to do *all* the maintenance on them (for the family anyway), driving an EV is such a difference to just forget about all the routine stuff.

As LEAFers we have a "somewhat" larger challenge managing SOC since we can only use timers but in the short time I've been on TOU, it has really been "nearly" a nothing thing. I have 2 timers, one is basically the "commute" timer and only plug in every other day (charges 1½ hours and then my "weekend" timer I use for my 3 days off. Its a 3 hour timer. SOC runs from 30 to 70%

Has all this "work" been worth it?

That's really the ultimate question Leaf owners face. Some take all the extra steps to take care of the battery while others (like me), seem to completely torture the battery and somehow not face a dead battery in only a short time. :?

Too early to tell. I am just under 50,000 miles coming up on 4 years in a few weeks which will likely be around the time of my 3rd crossing below 92% SOC.

To give you an idea of "linearity" I project my mileage to 80% SOC and it has ranged from as low as 56,000 miles to well over 100,000 miles as it sits today. Next adjustment ~Jan 9th

My goal is to keep driving my Leaf without much thought for the battery until such time the SoH matches my old 2013 and see how far I got on mileage before something bad happened. Hopefully a car crash or battery fire isn't the end of mine as I really enjoy driving it. :mrgreen:

 

[Andrey]

It's 2020 model, with 8 QC and <200 L1/L2. SOH is about 95.5% now. I usually stop charging at 95% since charging speed drops for last 5%. Then I drive it to 5% by GOM (which is much more precise in gen2), which is about 15% by LeafSpy. Mileage ~13k.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

95% after 3 years is amazing.

My 2019 SV+ new would charge to 59.1kWh most of the time, though sometimes would stop short around 57kWh. Coming from an 11 bar 2013, the feeling of having over 200 freeway miles was initially incredible. With some rim and inflation adjustments, 4 1/2 years later range doesn't feel that different yet in spite of the 90% SOH (and 93% on our 2019 S+...except for the winter tires).

My 2013 lost a bar after 5 years and 2 months. Hoping to much better then that on my 2019s.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

95% after 3 years is amazing.

My 2019 SV+ new would charge to 59.1kWh most of the time, though sometimes would stop short around 57kWh. Coming from an 11 bar 2013, the feeling of having over 200 freeway miles was initially incredible. With some rim and inflation adjustments, 4 1/2 years later range doesn't feel that different yet in spite of the 90% SOH (and 93% on our 2019 S+...except for the winter tires).

My 2013 lost a bar after 5 years and 2 months. Hoping to much better then that on my 2019s.

Amazing? No. Unusual? Yes

For some reason, some cars don't have the fast decline for the first year or two but all (so far) eventually catch up to the pack. Mine was more typical losing over 7% the first year, essentially less than one percent since. I will hit 4 years in a few weeks.

On Nov 16, 2021 I was at 92.09 SOH
On October 10, 2022, I was at 90.01 SOH.
Today I am at 92.19 SOH

Some claim its Nissan failing to track daily capacity (something I think most manufacturers cheat on a bit anyway) while I think its Nissan manipulating a hidden top reserve. Why?
""
Added protection against the Hooman practices resulting from emotionally based "facts"

Realization that the additional range isn't really needed.

 

[Andrey]

95% after 3 years is amazing.

Amazing? No. Unusual? Yes

It did not have much miles and charges, 13k and 8qc / 170l1/l2. Was driven 10k of it in Colorado, now in CA.

Do you usually charge to 100% or less?

 

[BillAinCT]

It's just my opinion or sense that gen 2 SOH adjustments are done to forecast SOH past the warranty date. My SOH recently went up .55%. Which was where I was 6 months ago and keeps my projection well past 14 years for 60%. I find it hard to believe my battery suddenly got better. Time, use, and heat degrade lithium based batteries. I don't see any way possible my battery improved over time. Especially since my last 4 FC's in that period were all at 72kW to 60kW for 30+ minutes. One time adding 3 temp bars. 2022 SL+ (10/21 build) 16.3k miles @ 95% SOH.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The Gen 1 and 1.5 Leafs obviously weren't programmed to keep enough SOH passed the warranty end date, but they also exhibited improvements after DC Fast Charges. The improvements were usually temporary, but they (seemed to have) happened.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Amazing? No. Unusual? Yes

It did not have much miles and charges, 13k and 8qc / 170l1/l2. Was driven 10k of it in Colorado, now in CA.

Do you usually charge to 100% or less?

In a few weeks, it will be 4 years of ownership. I have 31 full charges under my belt. 2 for experimental purposes, the rest were for extended (anything over 150 miles) road trips. Trips to Seattle area and back generally 140ish miles depending on destination I charge to 80-85%.

There are EXTENSIVE studies with compelling conclusive evidence that a higher number of shallower charge sessions will lengthen the life of "any" Lithium based chemistry.

So...charge every day
Live in the middle of the SOC range.

That is your "day to day" mantra.

If you need it, then do it. But as you can see; unless you are taking long trips out of town every weekend, its simply not needed frequently.

Since the Plus has only been on the streets 4 years, it will take quite a bit of time before their trend starts to veer up from the 40 kwh packs and that will happen.

What should also happen is a distinct line between people who charge to 100% a few times a week and the people who only restore the charge they use when charging daily. I expect it to be a 5 to 1 ratio.

Unfortunately due to many newer EVers hitting social media, the general consensus is that Nissan removed the 80% charge level because they have "solved the Lithium problem" and that 100% charging is not only ok but recommended. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

[oxothuk]

When I first got my Leaf I took some trouble to mange the SOC, trying to stay in the 30-80% range. But for the past year or more I've just been waiting until the SOC drops below 40% and then charging to 100% - usually about twice a week. The car never stays at 100% for very long, and our garage moderates temperature extremes.

With frequent charges to 100% I've been able to watch for any degradation trend, as shown by a drop in the number of GIDs at full charge. Over the past 18 months there has not been any noticeable loss of capacity; full charge consistently range from 695-710 GIDs. So I don't think the BMS is just lying to us to save warranty costs.