The 40KWH Battery Topic

[Oostenrijker]

i got it. Well in 1-2 years a lot of nice EVs will hit the second hand market so you will have lots of options to choose from with CCS/Battery cooling technology and probably not much more than a leaf 64. The Leaf is certainly a comfortable car but I really like the Niro too with the 64 Kwh Battery. And in terms of comfort nothing beats the Citroen e-C4 / eC4-X with the hydraulic dampers, soft floaty ride, and cushiony memory foam seats with a massager. I am eyeing all the cars in the market to get them cheap second hand in 2-3 years.

BTW yesterday I test drove the Tesla model 3 and i just cant have that. Hard ride, feel every bump on the road and hard seats that press your bum and back. Sitting in it for more than a few minutes was torture.

I get why people drive Tesla's, and that's not because they are the most sophisticated cars: it's just because it's one of the most efficient EV out there, with their own sophisticated charging network. But I'm not sure if I would like to have to deal with the touch screen all the time.

Tesla doesn't support Android Auto for example, and it might sound strange? But I find Android Auto super convenient. All the planning I do on my phone, and I create shortcuts of the routes I wanna follow.

Something like that wouldn't be possible with the build in navigation of any car. But I like my Nissan Leaf, and I better keep it for a few years. Else I would lose to much money. Although I'm a little but worried about the weak cell's in my 40kWh battery, that I discovered around 18.9% Leafspy SoC.

https://youtu.be/vxeb_6-Zd_E?si=IBq0t30r-02Ze64w

So next time I'm going drive a long journey, I might wanna try put some more stress on the battery. Because I'm always driving conservative, so I only noticed something weirdly. The one my battery was around 40% I guess, and I used the full power to speed up to 100km/h.

Then my SoC dropped by 5% or 10% and after I let go of the pedal, I all of a sudden gained back most of the percentage I lost.

 

[aneesh84]

Something like that wouldn't be possible with the build in navigation of any car. But I like my Nissan Leaf, and I better keep it for a few years. Else I would lose to much money. Although I'm a little but worried about the weak cell's in my 40kWh battery, that I discovered around 18.9% Leafspy SoC.

https://youtu.be/vxeb_6-Zd_E?si=IBq0t30r-02Ze64w

So next time I'm going drive a long journey, I might wanna try put some more stress on the battery. Because I'm always driving conservative, so I only noticed something weirdly. The one my battery was around 40% I guess, and I used the full power to speed up to 100km/h.

Then my SoC dropped by 5% or 10% and after I let go of the pedal, I all of a sudden gained back most of the percentage I lost.

You dont seem to be accelerating too hard while the SOC is dropping. Can you post a leafspy screenshot to show the cell voltages.

If you have a weak cell you can get it replaced in warranty.

I bought a high milage nissan leaf 2018 with a replaced new battery but it is out of warranty. When I got it the SOH was 99%. So i took the risk. Anyways I asked in my local electrical repair shop, they charge 450 Euros for opening the battery pack and 300 euro for each module that needs replacing. So I took the risk in case in future one of the module turns up defective. But we never fast charge the car, and this was supposed to be a second car for my wife to go to office. So with its current use, I am hopeful it will last 2 decades. However since we got it 3 months ago, it gets used all the time. We have already done 8000 Kms just around town driving.

For long trips I am holding on to my super comfortable diesel Citroen C5 2005 with Hydropneumatic Suspension and lovely sofa like seats. They dont make cars like these anymore. It will have to serve me 3-4 years till i can buy a cheap long range and comfortable EV. Tesla is certainly making good progress in the Efficiency, and Range Department. However I cant understand why they cant put good suspensions and comfortable seats and some simple buttons. My perfect car will probably have to be another Citroen since they are the only company who truly understand comfort(Other than Mercedes but they are way pricy). But i am patient to wait a couple of years!

 

[Oostenrijker]

Something like that wouldn't be possible with the build in navigation of any car. But I like my Nissan Leaf, and I better keep it for a few years. Else I would lose to much money. Although I'm a little but worried about the weak cell's in my 40kWh battery, that I discovered around 18.9% Leafspy SoC.

https://youtu.be/vxeb_6-Zd_E?si=IBq0t30r-02Ze64w

So next time I'm going drive a long journey, I might wanna try put some more stress on the battery. Because I'm always driving conservative, so I only noticed something weirdly. The one my battery was around 40% I guess, and I used the full power to speed up to 100km/h.

Then my SoC dropped by 5% or 10% and after I let go of the pedal, I all of a sudden gained back most of the percentage I lost.

You dont seem to be accelerating too hard while the SOC is dropping. Can you post a leafspy screenshot to show the cell voltages.

If you have a weak cell you can get it replaced in warranty.

I bought a high milage nissan leaf 2018 with a replaced new battery but it is out of warranty. When I got it the SOH was 99%. So i took the risk. Anyways I asked in my local electrical repair shop, they charge 450 Euros for opening the battery pack and 300 euro for each module that needs replacing. So I took the risk in case in future one of the module turns up defective. But we never fast charge the car, and this was supposed to be a second car for my wife to go to office. So with its current use, I am hopeful it will last 2 decades. However since we got it 3 months ago, it gets used all the time. We have already done 8000 Kms just around town driving.

For long trips I am holding on to my super comfortable diesel Citroen C5 2005 with Hydropneumatic Suspension and lovely sofa like seats. They dont make cars like these anymore. It will have to serve me 3-4 years till i can buy a cheap long range and comfortable EV. Tesla is certainly making good progress in the Efficiency, and Range Department. However I cant understand why they cant put good suspensions and comfortable seats and some simple buttons. My perfect car will probably have to be another Citroen since they are the only company who truly understand comfort(Other than Mercedes but they are way pricy). But i am patient to wait a couple of years!

I have like 14 weak cell's within my battery pack: I posted it, in my own topic.



But it only shows at a low SoC: and only when I was accelerating hard, around 30/40 SoC I had the quick drop in percentages, like I seen on YouTube. Above 40/50% SoC the weak cell's get balanced out okayish.

I have this plan I mind: go on Autobahn, and drive like a German: then go to the Lidl CHAdeMO quick charger, and charge it back up. If it get worse, then atleast the dealership has to deal with it. When I keep babying it, then it might only start getting worse after the warranty expired.

The battery warranty from Nissan is one thing: used cars are also sold with 1 year warranty, so then they would have to deal with it anyway.

 

[aneesh84]

Is this Leafspy screenshot at rest or while accelerating?

While accelerating hard it is normal for cells to get imbalanced. Since my battery is new, I will try the same at low SOC to see what i get.

How manky kms has it done? Has the battery temperature reached the red zone frequently?

 

[Stanton]

I have like 14 weak cell's within my battery pack: I posted it, in my own topic.

While there is one particularly bad cell, the wider dip is not uncommon at low SOC. Need to see a similar graph for high SOC and then we can compare.

 

[Oostenrijker]

I have like 14 weak cell's within my battery pack: I posted it, in my own topic.

While there is one particularly bad cell, the wider dip is not uncommon at low SOC. Need to see a similar graph for high SOC and then we can compare.

I did some test driving: sometimes while giving full gas, and reaching the top speed of this car. I saw it jump up up like 200mV. But afterwards it would quickly balance things.

But in general, there wasn't anything very worrying. Although I learned some more things about my car: in ECO mode, the car has more regeneratie braking. And I find the normal drive mode, to quickly to accelerate.



But this the graph at 30% I didn't go lower then this, and the car showed 19%

Is this Leafspy screenshot at rest or while accelerating?

While accelerating hard it is normal for cells to get imbalanced. Since my battery is new, I will try the same at low SOC to see what i get.

How manky kms has it done? Has the battery temperature reached the red zone frequently?

Currently at 181.000km's, whereas I added 10.000km and never driving in the red zone. Although I was close by, when I was coming back from Austria. I had to do 4 QC's and the temperature on that point was quite high.

All screenshots are while standing still: I try not to use the phone, while driving. So I just had Leafspy on to monitor things.

I have another roadtrip to Austria planned: when the battery decides to give up, then it might happen during long journeys. My only hope is, that it happens while I have warranty. If the battery would die, then the car is economically totalllos. Considering a battery is like € 10.000 atleast.

 

[aneesh84]

Those are cells from the rear stack. Due to heating probably during Rapid charges and fast driving they have become a little weaker. Thats why you see the symptoms.

But at 181000 Kms, isnt the warranty over?

 

[Oostenrijker]

Those are cells from the rear stack. Due to heating probably during Rapid charges and fast driving they have become a little weaker. Thats why you see the symptoms.

But at 181000 Kms, isnt the warranty over?

Battery warranty yes: used car warranty no! I even paid an extra € 500 for it. So let's say in the worst case scenario, the battery decides to die? And its within this used car warranty, which is until April 2024.

When I bought it: the dealership said, it was a risk for them as well selling the car to me. So if there is an issue with the battery, they still have to provide me warranty.

And the sales person really pressed on my heart, to just get this used car warranty. Although by law, you already have the warranty. But paying extra, means they ain't going argue so much.

But I will likely hit 20k in a year: so I really think, if there is anything wrong with the car. It would likely start showing already within the first year of ownership. I plan to keep this car for 3 to 5 years, but I'm really interested into getting a 59kWh.

 

[aneesh84]

Those are cells from the rear stack. Due to heating probably during Rapid charges and fast driving they have become a little weaker. Thats why you see the symptoms.

But at 181000 Kms, isnt the warranty over?

Battery warranty yes: used car warranty no! I even paid an extra € 500 for it. So let's say in the worst case scenario, the battery decides to die? And its within this used car warranty, which is until April 2024.

When I bought it: the dealership said, it was a risk for them as well selling the car to me. So if there is an issue with the battery, they still have to provide me warranty.

And the sales person really pressed on my heart, to just get this used car warranty. Although by law, you already have the warranty. But paying extra, means they ain't going argue so much.

But I will likely hit 20k in a year: so I really think, if there is anything wrong with the car. It would likely start showing already within the first year of ownership. I plan to keep this car for 3 to 5 years, but I'm really interested into getting a 59kWh.

You have quite a tired battery with the rear stack generally more degraded which is common if the battery has gone through more heat cycles. However unless there is an isolation fault, the car can keep running for several thousands or even more than hundred thousand kilometers with a slightly lower range.

If you abuse the battery, it may still not die, but may degrade faster. I doubt that the used car warranty will cover general degradation or high mV delta below 10%. But even if one of the modules fail due to an isolation fault, your car is not a total loss. That module can be replaced for about 1000 Euros.

 

[Oostenrijker]

Those are cells from the rear stack. Due to heating probably during Rapid charges and fast driving they have become a little weaker. Thats why you see the symptoms.

But at 181000 Kms, isnt the warranty over?

Battery warranty yes: used car warranty no! I even paid an extra € 500 for it. So let's say in the worst case scenario, the battery decides to die? And its within this used car warranty, which is until April 2024.

When I bought it: the dealership said, it was a risk for them as well selling the car to me. So if there is an issue with the battery, they still have to provide me warranty.

And the sales person really pressed on my heart, to just get this used car warranty. Although by law, you already have the warranty. But paying extra, means they ain't going argue so much.

But I will likely hit 20k in a year: so I really think, if there is anything wrong with the car. It would likely start showing already within the first year of ownership. I plan to keep this car for 3 to 5 years, but I'm really interested into getting a 59kWh.

You have quite a tired battery with the rear stack generally more degraded which is common if the battery has gone through more heat cycles. However unless there is an isolation fault, the car can keep running for several thousands or even more than hundred thousand kilometers with a slightly lower range.

If you abuse the battery, it may still not die, but may degrade faster. I doubt that the used car warranty will cover general degradation or high mV delta below 10%. But even if one of the modules fail due to an isolation fault, your car is not a total loss. That module can be replaced for about 1000 Euros.

I don't plan to abuse the battery: but just keep driving, the way I always drive. That includes going on roadtrips, which includes multiple QC sessions in a row. And although I might include one QC which speed is limited at 20kW, I still need to do three of them.

And I have already had some unexplainable issues while charging: twice at the same city in Lindau, my AC charging abruptly stopped at the fast charging stations. So after I took it to another AC charger at a fast charging station, an half hour later the same thing happened.

While I could blame the fast charging stations, and having the theory the electricity network simply might not be able to handle both AC and DC charging simultaneously. I do however think, it might have been something related to my car.



These DTC I saw, after I used Leafspy. But I erased them, as I thought nothing to be wrong. But I have seen these before....

( actually I think those are caused by the ODB2 dongle perhaps )
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=25335

And I had a few times, public chargers not working: it started charging, and after that it directly stopped. While it could be the public charger detective, I do have the feeling it could be my car instead perhaps.

 

[knightmb]

And I had a few times, public chargers not working: it started charging, and after that it directly stopped. While it could be the public charger detective, I do have the feeling it could be my car instead perhaps.

If you are not seeing errors in LeafSpy when this happens and your QC port looks clean, 99% of the time it's the QC station, my experience.

 

[Oostenrijker]

And I had a few times, public chargers not working: it started charging, and after that it directly stopped. While it could be the public charger detective, I do have the feeling it could be my car instead perhaps.

If you are not seeing errors in LeafSpy when this happens and your QC port looks clean, 99% of the time it's the QC station, my experience.

I didn't use CHAdeMO but Type 2, and the second fast charging station didn't even have CHAdeMO. They argue that for EV's which use CHAdeMO, they can still use the type 2.

However 30 mins after I plugged in, the charging stopped abruptly. Just the same how it had happened at Kaufland, but that was a ABB charging station. Where I was using the Type 2 and not CHAdeMO.

But no, it didn't throw any code. The only time I had an EV Warning light emitted, was after trying to use an defective Shell Recharge Fast Charger. And surprisingly after that, my car wouldn't charge from the public charger. After an hour I came back, discovered it didn't charge and changed the socket from the charging pool.

That helped, but when I had the same issue the second time: both sockets from the charging pool didn't work. I even had them reset it, but nothing worked. In the end I went to another public charger, which worked.

 

[knightmb]

It that case, it probably was the station then. Sorry about the mix up, but an L2 that doesn't work with the Leaf is very rare as the OBC can work with anything from 120 VAC to 240VAC both single and three-phase power L2 units. Other than something actually wrong with the Leaf, you can search these forums, usually when it doesn't work, it's the L2 station. If the Leaf can't use L2, then it becomes apparent as trying different units all fail on the Leaf, you know it's the Leaf that has the issue then.

I didn't use CHAdeMO but Type 2, and the second fast charging station didn't even have CHAdeMO. They argue that for EV's which use CHAdeMO, they can still use the type 2.

However 30 mins after I plugged in, the charging stopped abruptly. Just the same how it had happened at Kaufland, but that was a ABB charging station. Where I was using the Type 2 and not CHAdeMO.

But no, it didn't throw any code. The only time I had an EV Warning light emitted, was after trying to use an defective Shell Recharge Fast Charger. And surprisingly after that, my car wouldn't charge from the public charger. After an hour I came back, discovered it didn't charge and changed the socket from the charging pool.

That helped, but when I had the same issue the second time: both sockets from the charging pool didn't work. I even had them reset it, but nothing worked. In the end I went to another public charger, which worked.

 

[Oostenrijker]

Ah well, I think actually I need to take the risk and run the battery even deeper down as I did. At higher SoC's nothing is really wrong. But my conclusion has been, I can only safely run the battery down to about 20% raw SoC.



This is how a perfectly health 40kWh battery would look like at 0% dash SoC, and one difference you can see is my HX number is already below 70% although I still don't understand it's meaning.

Mine however, although haven lesser QC's then in the example above: is showing multiple weak cell's, around 20% and I managed to discover it at 17.9% sometime ago.

https://youtu.be/-xlyhtNkDE4?si=cZt5eqM-jthciNet

So although I do agree, when staying above 20% SoC, I should be fine: I do think however the battery might be at its end of life. The YouTube video above, is from AutoWeek. They do battery degradation tests, and this one is from a Renault ZOE with slight more km's then my Leaf.

The interesting thing about what the expert had to say: around 20% the voltage difference between cells would rise so much, that in the car it would drop quickly down to 0% precisely what I experienced.

And my argument to the dealership aka who sold me an hight mileage Nissan Leaf, while saying the battery was still fine. But just had some degradation, but still had all 12 bars. So it couldn't be that bad.

So I have expressed my worries, but also stated: I paid for a Leaf with 32.5kWh ( as measured by Leafspy ) but I can only use 26kWh safely. Which means I could still go 50km's with the last 6kWh, but because of the weak cell's it isn't safe to do so.

In oktober the recall going be done: I plan to drop the car with an low as possible SoC, and my plan would be ending with a low as possible SoC around the dealership. If if throws an error code, than the car is just around the corner and they can pick it up. I have read, by running the heater you could even deplete it without driving.

So I'm convinced something is wrong with the battery, but in order to show it: I will have to drive it even more empty, preferably up to 9.9% as seen in the screenshot above. Because above 20% I haven't seen the weak cell's message yet.

Lucky the dealer is only about 50km drive, so when I leave with 30% I should actually still make it. But ABRP says I would arrive with 5% and my observation been, that around 10% I start seeing the effect of the weak cell's.

 

[Learjet]

with the weak cell, one day you will throw a code and go into turtle mode. Then Nissan will repair the battery pack. This is what happen to me after several months with a weak cell.

 

[aneesh84]

with the weak cell, one day you will throw a code and go into turtle mode. Then Nissan will repair the battery pack. This is what happen to me after several months with a weak cell.

Weak cells will diminish the range and you will see sharp drop in battery percentage at the lower end but the car will continue to function. The error codes will only appear if one of the modules develop an isolation fault , that is the high voltage side leaks into the body of the module. You will get the error "Service EV System, Unable to restart after power off". In that case the affected module needs replacement.

The OPs car is out of Nissan's warrenty and is close to running out of the Used Car warranty, and thats why he is trying to make sure he gets the replacements before the warranty runs out.

 

[Learjet]

with the weak cell, one day you will throw a code and go into turtle mode. Then Nissan will repair the battery pack. This is what happen to me after several months with a weak cell.

Weak cells will diminish the range and you will see sharp drop in battery percentage at the lower end but the car will continue to function. The error codes will only appear if one of the modules develop an isolation fault , that is the high voltage side leaks into the body of the module. You will get the error "Service EV System, Unable to restart after power off". In that case the affected module needs replacement.

The OPs car is out of Nissan's warrenty and is close to running out of the Used Car warranty, and thats why he is trying to make sure he gets the replacements before the warranty runs out.

That was not my experience, the car didn't continue to function properly and there was no isolation fault.

A 502 mV low cell at low SOC generated two codes and turtle mode/Service EV message. I was able to restart the car. Also, saw erratic SOC indications below 40%

The codes from Leafspy were:

• P3180 EV/HEV HV Battery System
  P33E6 HV Battery Cell Controller

 

[Oostenrijker]

with the weak cell, one day you will throw a code and go into turtle mode. Then Nissan will repair the battery pack. This is what happen to me after several months with a weak cell.

Weak cells will diminish the range and you will see sharp drop in battery percentage at the lower end but the car will continue to function. The error codes will only appear if one of the modules develop an isolation fault , that is the high voltage side leaks into the body of the module. You will get the error "Service EV System, Unable to restart after power off". In that case the affected module needs replacement.

The OPs car is out of Nissan's warrenty and is close to running out of the Used Car warranty, and thats why he is trying to make sure he gets the replacements before the warranty runs out.

That was not my experience, the car didn't continue to function properly and there was no isolation fault.

A 502 mV low cell at low SOC generated two codes and turtle mode/Service EV message. I was able to restart the car. Also, saw erratic SOC indications below 40%

The codes from Leafspy were:

• P3180 EV/HEV HV Battery System
  P33E6 HV Battery Cell Controller

My plan now is to drive the battery as empty as possible, while using Leafspy. Because I no way the dealership is taking me seriously: they said, their battery test only would say if the battery is good or not good.

I told them however, Leafspy is giving factual information. This information is simply reported by the car. However they don't recognise any third party apps. So me telling them I have a lot of weak cell's in the battery pack, was basically answered with that they don't look at Leafspy data.

Actually I expected something like this already: they got my money already. So now I just need to go a step further, because they still have to deal with it. When it would really cause any errors. But I'm pressuring them....

I told them: I would sign up my car, for a YouTube program that do extensive accu degradation tests. And explained them, their name is on the license plate holder. So I have used many arguments already: also that they can't expect, a consumer to be able to judge the state of the battery as an expert.

Also considering they don't allow long test driving: so I would never have found it out anyway, also not with Leafspy. Because it only shows below 20% raw SoC.

The annoying thing actually is: they haven't said or done anything, to take my worry away. And considering my trust in them, is already damaged. I would expect them to put more effort into, keeping the customer satisfied.

My plan is to drive to the city where the dealership is, and drive around the public chargers. Because if it wouldn't produce any DTC, then I will just have to drive to the public charger. But when the dreaded EV Warning Light pop-up, then I can ran the Nissan mobility service to rescue me and drop the car at the dealership.

The OPs car is out of Nissan's warrenty and is close to running out of the Used Car warranty, and thats why he is trying to make sure he gets the replacements before the warranty runs out.

Ofcourse that's the reason: I wouldn't have thought of doing something like this with an ICE, but the battery of a 40kWh Leaf is about € 10.000 and I guess the dealership actually might be able to get their money from Nissan anyway.

They could argue to Nissan, that the weak cell's where already there before the warranty expired. However as with many things, they are just to lazy to deal with it when it was still a leasing vehicle. Just as the star chips my Leaf had..... they could have fixed those, before selling.

But no matter if battery warranty from Nissan is expired: by law, it doesn't matter. Because used car warranty, will cover it anyway. And also, they told me the state of the battery was still good, but I think it isn't. So I want to deep deeper into it.

 

[Learjet]

hard acceleration at low SOC with a weak cell may trigger a DTC

 

[Oostenrijker]

hard acceleration at low SOC with a weak cell may trigger a DTC

Good to know, because my instincts tell me to drive slow.

My plan is now as follows: I'm going drive about 80km, while recording Leafspy. Then when I'm going be around 20% dash SoC. I will start to drive a bit faster: that's why I going detour to get on the German Autobahn.

And in the end, I will drive around in a neighborhood: close to the dealership. When the DTC is there, they will have to help me. Telling them the results of Leafspy, without any DTC basically didn't help.