Tell me if a Leaf could work for my situation...

[hingisfan]

(If this is in the totally wrong section, please direct me!)

Hi guys, just discovered this forum a few days ago and love all the info on here. Just wondering if owners can offer their advice on if they think a Leaf would work for me....I'll try and provide as many details as I can. Thanks!

My wife and I live 30km north of Kingston, Ontario, Canada. We have an 8 month old and will probably have one more child in the next 1-3 years. We park our cars in the driveway, but we have a 2 car garage that I could put the Leaf in, if that is a much better option. I have room on my panel to install a level 2 station.

We currently have a 2002 Nissan Altima which my wife drives with the baby, or we all drive in if together. We also have a 2009 Saturn Astra that I drive to work, and drive when I do errands, gym, etc, in Kingston when on my own. Planning to replace the Altima when it dies or has a major issue, but it's been a great car (original owner) and little problems with now over 235,000km on it. If it died tomorrow I would buy a Prius V to replace it. I would be looking to replace the Saturn with the Leaf, hoping to get at least $7,000 trade-in or private sale for the Saturn.

My work is 45km each way, I can level 1 charge at work, and I work 12 hour shifts (14 shifts in a 4 week period). Assuming I would be at least close to 100% again after my 12.5 hours at work. Drive to work is single lane highways, low traffic, 80km speed limit dropping down to 40km speed limit when passing through 4 villages on the way. I usually cruise around 100km/h. Roads are in good shape, not a whole lot of big hills, but I would not say totally flat either. Temperatures here can hit over 30C during a summer heatwave, and under -25C during a winter cold snap. Drive into Kingston is similar, drive mostly at 90-100km/h, with a few slower zones. Kingston is a city of about 140,000 and traffic can be heavy at times, but not bad.

I have test driven a 2012 Leaf twice, and loved it both times. Quiet, smooth, spacious. Wasn't crazy on the lighter interior, but the pics I see of the black 2013 interior look amazing. Also love the faster charge time on the 2013, and of course the price drop. CDN pricing has yet to be announced, but we are usually a bit higher than USA. In Canada, we can get an $8,500 rebate (post-tax), and it is taken right off at the dealership. Tax here is 13%. I would be open to both leasing or owning outright. I don't see BEVs taking huge strides in the next 3 years, but on the other hand if my range were down 20-30% after 3 years, I would probably rather hand it back to Nissan and re-lease a newer model. I would want a 2013 SV. I currently put about 27,000km a year on the Saturn. I am usually the type of person to buy a car new and then keep it for 10-15 years. I am not anti-Volt, but if you compare 2013 MSRPs, the Volt is over $10,000 more expensive, which makes it unrealistic for me at this point.

I have room on my panel to install level 2 here at the house, and electricity would cost me about 13.5 cents/kWh, assuming I could charge 80% of the time at off-peak. My Saturn averages 8.3L/100km. Gas here is currently $1.25/L

My main concerns are....
1. Will I have enough range on a cold winter day, say 5-6 years down the road when I have 160,000km on the car with the original batteries, lots of accessories going, winter tires, and I need a range of 100km to go into town, do some errands, and get back home without charging.

2. Should I just keep what I have until I NEED a new car. The Saturn only has 60,000km on it and it runs great. Should I just drive it for the next 6-8 years until it's ready to die and then look at what options are on the market? (I know this is a tough question to answer, if the Saturn were near death I would not hesitate to buy a Leaf)

I appreciate any advice or thoughts.

Thanks guys!

 

[MrIanB]

I think as long as you charge for some time at work, not the whole 12 hours you are ok. Nissan is releasing a battery warranty this spring and you should be ok long term.

Best of luck and let us know the outcome.

Ian Zb

 

[davewill]

My main concerns are....
1. Will I have enough range on a cold winter day, say 5-6 years down the road when I have 160,000km on the car with the original batteries, lots of accessories going, winter tires, and I need a range of 100km to go into town, do some errands, and get back home without charging.

2. Should I just keep what I have until I NEED a new car. The Saturn only has 60,000km on it and it runs great. Should I just drive it for the next 6-8 years until it's ready to die and then look at what options are on the market? (I know this is a tough question to answer, if the Saturn were near death I would not hesitate to buy a Leaf)

I appreciate any advice or thoughts.

Thanks guys!

In the case of number one, I don't think so. 100km(60mi) in frigid weather is on the edge even with a new battery, no heat, and the stock LRR tires. With snow tires, the heat blasting, and a battery 5-6 years old that will have degraded, you won't have a prayer. However your commute scenario should be no sweat.

 

[GRA]

My main concerns are....
1. Will I have enough range on a cold winter day, say 5-6 years down the road when I have 160,000km on the car with the original batteries, lots of accessories going, winter tires, and I need a range of 100km to go into town, do some errands, and get back home without charging.

2. Should I just keep what I have until I NEED a new car. The Saturn only has 60,000km on it and it runs great. Should I just drive it for the next 6-8 years until it's ready to die and then look at what options are on the market? (I know this is a tough question to answer, if the Saturn were near death I would not hesitate to buy a Leaf)

I appreciate any advice or thoughts.

Thanks guys!

In the case of number one, I don't think so. 100km(60mi) in frigid weather is on the edge even with a new battery, no heat, and the stock LRR tires. With snow tires, the heat blasting, and a battery 5-6 years old that will have degraded, you won't have a prayer. However your commute scenario should be no sweat.

Agreed on #1. I'd say go with #2. The car works, has no issues, is reasonably efficient, and by the time it dies there will be something that can meet your 100kM in winter needs for a reasonable price. Alternatively, you could get a Volt now. It will make your commute one-way most if not all the year on the battery and will be fully charged by the end of your shift for the trip home, there's no need to install a 240V circuit and L2 unless your really want one so the cost is a bit closer to the Leaf, and it will give you your 100kM winter range and more, albeit you'll be burning gas for half or two thirds of it. But you'll be able to use the heater freely, and in your climate, especially with small children, that's pretty important.

Economically, replacing your Saturn with anything makes no sense unless you can get massive subsidies, so the only reason to change is for ideological reasons. Only you can decide what that's worth, but I'd definitely not recommend the Leaf given your overall requirements. Now, if you'll always use the Prius V that you are thinking about buying for the trips to Kingston, then a Leaf would be fine for your commute.

 

[evnow]

My main concerns are....
1. Will I have enough range on a cold winter day, say 5-6 years down the road when I have 160,000km on the car with the original batteries, lots of accessories going, winter tires, and I need a range of 100km to go into town, do some errands, and get back home without charging.

2. Should I just keep what I have until I NEED a new car. The Saturn only has 60,000km on it and it runs great. Should I just drive it for the next 6-8 years until it's ready to die and then look at what options are on the market? (I know this is a tough question to answer, if the Saturn were near death I would not hesitate to buy a Leaf)

#1 - lease, don't buy. So, you don't have to worry about what happens 5 years down the road.

#2 - depends on your financial situation. See how much opearting Saturn costs now - compare to a leased Leaf. If you feel the delta is worthwhile to drive a new EV, lease the Leaf.

 

[Reddy]

Excellent! Finally, a real well thought out summary and questions! Way to go. Here's more reading:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11505&hilit=cold
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11506#p265550
As others have said, 100km won't be easy (even without heat) at very low temps, maybe not even possible when you get to -20C. There will absolutely be a few days each year where driving the Leaf might even be suicidal. If you have another car and are willing to skip those cold days in the Leaf, then you have a chance. However, with guaranteed work charging on L1, it should be possible. Remember, the automatic battery warmer will consume power below -4C (I think) and you will lose range just sitting at work unless plugged in.

Good luck on your decision. It's an excellent car, but not every tool can do every job.

 

[adric22]

I would be skeptical of making that trip reliably, particularly during the Canadian winter. Not only that, but you are going to be STUCK there at work until the car recharges which is going to take quite some time on L1. So if there is some emergency, you will have to find other transportation.

I hate to say it, but perhaps you should look at a Volt. On most days you will be able to make the trip to work completely in EV mode. You can fully recharge at work, and again drive most of the way home on EV power. But you wouldn't have to worry about being stuck at work, or worry about if you can keep making the trip after battery degradation. And let me tell you, putting that many miles (or KM) on a car every day will result in battery degradation in just about any EV. The only one that can really handle those kinds of demands would be the Tesla because you would not be fully cycling the battery twice per day.

I'm not saying that the Leaf can't do this trip. I'm just saying I think the combination of distance and temperature make it risky. A Volt would give you much more security.

 

[Luft]

45 km isn't very far. On a new battery pack I believe you will have no problem making it even if you run the heater in very cold weather:

New battery pack has 21 KWh of usable power at 100% charge. At -25c you will lose about 4.4 KWh of power leaving you with 16.6 KWh of power.
If you travel at 98 km/hour you will get about 6 km per KWh. That means you will use about 7.5 KWh leaving you with about 9 KWh. However, at -25C you will need to run the heater. The heater can consume a lot. Let's say it uses 4 KW for an hour. This will leave you with 5 KWh or about one fuel bar remaining when you arrive at work.

If you travel slow enough for the 45 km to require an hour you will probably not use the above predicted 4.4 KWh of power to actually move your LEAF. (I'm trying to be ultra conservative.)

If you then charge for 12 hours at work you should have about 15 KWh of additional power or almost a full battery and should be able to make it home with no problems.

Okay now in five to six years your battery will have degraded. We really don't know how much but maybe enough that you won't be able to run in the super cold with the heater blasting. In warmer weather it should be no problem.

So if I were you I'd get the LEAF but drive the Prius when it gets too cold but then that's just me.

EDIT: I didn't include the power that the battery heater will no doubt consume. I don't have that data so it may be a total deal breaker in super cold weather. If most days are not that severe the LEAF will probably be a very good option especially if you have a second car for the days when it would not work.

 

[abasile]

Remember, the automatic battery warmer will consume power below -4C (I think) and you will lose range just sitting at work unless plugged in.

No, IIRC, that's -4F, not -4C.

 

[kubel]

I would say keep the Saturn for another year or two until the DC J1772 combo starts getting designed into EVs, then jump onboard. If you don't want to wait, a 2013 LEAF would work in your situation. I drive about 55-miles daily and charge on 120V at work. An 80% charge is enough to get me to work, and trickle charging throughout the day while at work is enough to get me back home. Below 15F, I have to charge to 100% or else I will be forced to sacrifice heat for range (something I refuse to do). I don't drive faster than 60MPH most of the time. If you got a 2013, the new more efficient heater should squeeze out a few more miles of range than my 2012.

 

[cwerdna]

I would say keep the Saturn for another year or two until the DC J1772 combo starts getting designed into EVs, then jump onboard.

I'm confused. You're suggesting the OP wait for Frankenplug cars to appear? Why?

Frankenplug car list isn't looking very good (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=247516#p247516" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. I doubt the situation would look much better in Canada.

The Frankenplug station count sure isn't very high in the US: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11679&p=269542" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[jswilson]

Hingisfan:

I'm just north of you in Ottawa and have a 2012 Leaf - I got it on January 22, 2013 when the high temperature for the day was -25 degrees celsius! I have a 64 km round-trip commute and no charging available at work. I haven't had any issues in terms of range, but I have cut it very close a few times, and have had to charge to 100% throughout this winter. It's definitely the heater that affects range the most for us. Now that it's a little warmer (-1 degrees celsius today) I am seeing at least a 30% increase in range.

So, getting back to your question, I would never attempt to cover 100 kms on one charge in Eastern Ontario, Canada in January or February. Use your old car for those days, or make sure that you can charge during the day somewhere, even if it is to get 20 km extra in range.

This being said, we have only driven our old car 3 times in the 5-6 weeks that we've had the Leaf, and only once for our work commute. I've actaully have had to go out and turn it on for 15 mins to make sure the battery didn't get drained :lol:

 

[hingisfan]

Thanks for the info Scott, nice to hear from someone close by!

The 100km trip with no charge I was referring to wouldn't be a necessary trip, just trying to wrap my head around how often range might come into play for me. I could work around a trip into Kingston on my off days if it was a crappy day and I had a lot of running around to do. If I was just going into town to go to the gym and maybe 1-2 errands, I don't think I would be over 70km. But then again, if it's a really cold day the battery heater will be on while I'm at the gym for 2 hours, so it coudl be really tight.

With an 8 month old child and probably another one in the next 1-2 years, I don't really want to have to get up at 530am (when I work dayshift), check the weather, decide if it's a Leaf day or not, change carseats over from one car to the other, make sure all the kid stuff is in the right car, and then head into work. If I can make the trip to work even on the worst of days, then I think I could make the Leaf work for me. Although, I would still be worried about 6 years down the road on a crappy day, especially if I need to run better tires for the winter. I recently put Goodyear Triple Treads on the Saturn and I lost over 8% of my gas mileage, compared to the GY Eagle LS's that came on it.

It's a tough call I guess....I'll have to give it some more thought. Also, when the wife goes back to work, I won't have that 2nd car sitting in the driveway as an option, so the Leaf would need to work for my work commute, and at least a 70km trip with no charging.

 

[hingisfan]

Hingisfan:

I'm just north of you in Ottawa and have a 2012 Leaf - I got it on January 22, 2013 when the high temperature for the day was -25 degrees celsius! I have a 64 km round-trip commute and no charging available at work. I haven't had any issues in terms of range, but I have cut it very close a few times, and have had to charge to 100% throughout this winter. It's definitely the heater that affects range the most for us. Now that it's a little warmer (-1 degrees celsius today) I am seeing at least a 30% increase in range.

So, getting back to your question, I would never attempt to cover 100 kms on one charge in Eastern Ontario, Canada in January or February. Use your old car for those days, or make sure that you can charge during the day somewhere, even if it is to get 20 km extra in range.

This being said, we have only driven our old car 3 times in the 5-6 weeks that we've had the Leaf, and only once for our work commute. I've actaully have had to go out and turn it on for 15 mins to make sure the battery didn't get drained :lol:

Hey Scott, just wondering since your 64km trip is about the same as what I want the Leaf to do for me, what are you going to do in a few years when you have less range on your Leaf and it's a -25C day? Or did you lease your Leaf so it won't be an issue? Or do you always have a backup ICE car for days like that?

Thanks!

 

[jswilson]

Hingisfan:

I leased for 48 months.

However, I should say that over the past 5 weeks, we've had at least 5 days when it's been very, very cold (lower than -20 celsius as a day time high), and I never made it home with less than two bars on the range meter. On one ocassion I actually kept driving around my neighbourhood to try and "turtle" the Leaf, but only managed to get the "very low battery" warning after 16 kms of additional driving - I ran out of patience and it was dinner time . So that brought me to over 80 kms. And this is worst case scenario cold weather. Of course - you make a good point: what will this be like in a few years time? How much battery degradation will there be? I am pretty confident that given our climate here it won't be more than 20-25 percent in the 4 year period that I have the car.

You mentioned the battery heater and drains on the battery when it's parked. I worried about that too, but I couldn't see or even perceive any reductions in battery levels after leaving the car outside for 8 hours in the parking lot at -20 celsius. In fact, the first Leaf owner in Canada (who is also from Ottawa) recently blogged about leaving the Leaf at an airport long-term parking lot for 2 days at temps below - 20 celsius, with little impact.

On your comment on the backup car, we have an ICE, but just because we haven't gotten around to selling it... In your case though, I think it makes sense to have the backup for very cold and snowy days - you wouldn't want to run out of juice on a cold Janaury evening north of Kingston on highway 10! Of course, depending on your wife's commute, could she take the Leaf on those days? (assuming their commute is shorter)

 

[hingisfan]

Thanks Scott, your numbers are actually quite encouraging to me. What kind of drive do you have? Speed? Traffic?

Also, curious why you didn't want to wait for the 2013? What model 2012 did you get? Good deal on your lease? Full $8500 incentive taken right off the deal? Did you buy charge station from Nissan or get it somewhere else?

The 20-25% range loss after 3-4 years would concern me as well, and would be the reason I would seriously consider leasing over buying.

Thanks again for your help, any more info you can give me over the coming weeks/months is much appreciated!

My name is Mark by the way, and we live about 5km east of Sydenham. My work commute is to Napanee.

 

[GRA]

You might want to read the first post on this topic as well:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8332&hilit=vancouver+km+cold" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although it's on Vancouver Island so warmer than what you'll be dealing with, he does give details of a number of winter trips with a variety of loads and conditions.

HTH with your decision.

 

[Nubo]

...

 

[Luft]

I can understand about not wanting to have to decide if it's too cold to make the trip in the LEAF at 5:30 am. Does you wife have to drive as far to get to work? If her drive is significantly shorter you might have to just let her drive the LEAF during the months when it might get too cold to make your trip advisable. Of course there is that battery heating thing. I have a 2011 LEAF so I don't know how much power that would suck out off the battery if parked at work in really cold weather. You wouldn't want you wife coming out to find that she didn't have the power to make a return trip.

Maybe someone on the forum who has a 2012 LEAF with the battery heater can give us a feeling for how much power it would use?

Thanks for the info Scott, nice to hear from someone close by!

The 100km trip with no charge I was referring to wouldn't be a necessary trip, just trying to wrap my head around how often range might come into play for me. I could work around a trip into Kingston on my off days if it was a crappy day and I had a lot of running around to do. If I was just going into town to go to the gym and maybe 1-2 errands, I don't think I would be over 70km. But then again, if it's a really cold day the battery heater will be on while I'm at the gym for 2 hours, so it coudl be really tight.

With an 8 month old child and probably another one in the next 1-2 years, I don't really want to have to get up at 530am (when I work dayshift), check the weather, decide if it's a Leaf day or not, change carseats over from one car to the other, make sure all the kid stuff is in the right car, and then head into work. If I can make the trip to work even on the worst of days, then I think I could make the Leaf work for me. Although, I would still be worried about 6 years down the road on a crappy day, especially if I need to run better tires for the winter. I recently put Goodyear Triple Treads on the Saturn and I lost over 8% of my gas mileage, compared to the GY Eagle LS's that came on it.

It's a tough call I guess....I'll have to give it some more thought. Also, when the wife goes back to work, I won't have that 2nd car sitting in the driveway as an option, so the Leaf would need to work for my work commute, and at least a 70km trip with no charging.

 

[hingisfan]

Her commute would likely be shorter one way, but likely no charging available, so actually longer trip as I can charge level 1 at work.

My off day errands and such I could work around a really cold day.