SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

[walterbays]

With a lot of spreadsheet work you can figure out how the different rate plans will work for you with different scenarios of usage. E.g. what if we buy a PHEV to replace the ICE? E.g., what if we double our solar panels?

From SDG&E you can download a CSV file of your net meter data in 15 minute increments going back more than a year so you can map your net usage to TOU periods. From NREL you can estimate solar production by day and hour for your specific geographic location and PV installation parameters. http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php I used this to estimate seasonal and daily variations but normalized the total to our actual total production. From SDG&E you *could* get TOU data for your EV sub-meter but they give it in XML format and I didn't want to write an XML parser so I just copied totals by TOU period from the past year of bills.

 

[electricfuture]

SDG&E have increased their EV-TOU and EV-TOU2 summer peak rate from $0.27 to $0.48 in the last year. That is a 78% increase! The other rates have only increase about a penny. BLINK is charging $.49 per kWh, so if you need to charge during peak time it really doesn't matter if you charge at home or at a public charging station.

The good news is that if you have solar they will be buying your excess power at $0.48 when the panels produce the most power and you can charge your car on super off peak at $0.17 per KWh.

 

[electricfuture]

I discussed the rate schedule with April - she makes the rate tables. In my case TOU2 is the way to go. It was noted that although they "pay back" at $.48 during peak hours for excess generation to the grid during the summer months, this drops to $.21 in the winter months. Yes that is right - a $.27 peak time rate difference between summer and winter.

I pointed out that the online EV rate tables (TOU and TOU2) do not show "super off peak" rates. She said this was an oversite and would be revised to include this. I also pointed out that the time of day for the various rates is not shown on the tables or on the utilitiy bill. She said she would add this critical information to the tables. She has no control over the utility bills.

 

[Randy]

I would recommend that you use this SDG&E web page to see the total electric rates...

http://www.sdge.com/total-electric-rates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The tiered rates are there (DR), as well as the EV TOU rates....Feb. 1 is the latest update....

Here is the link for the EV-TOU2 tariff that includes the TOU information...

http://regarchive.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/ELEC_ELEC-SCHEDS_EV-TOU-2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveEV]

Here is the link for the EV-TOU2 tariff that includes the TOU information...

http://regarchive.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/ELEC_ELEC-SCHEDS_EV-TOU-2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't realize that the EV-TOU peak rates excluded holidays - I guess that's different than the experimental rates that didn't have any days that didn't include on-peak hours.

 

[Randy]

Yes, the standard EV rates have always excluded holidays.

Don't forget, the shift to the summer season is a little more than 1 week away (May 1 to October 31)...You can access the links above to see what the prices will be (the Feb. 1 update is the latest so far, but as future adjustments are made you'll be able to find them on the page above as well).

Hopefully everyone on these rates is using their car timer to charge after midnight for the best price...

 

[walterbays]

Hopefully everyone on these rates is using their car timer to charge after midnight for the best price...

Of course!

Though still after 4 years of driving and countless threads of discussion I still haven't concluded which is better, start timer (begin at 12:00am) or end timer (finish by 5:00am). Start timer gives the battery time to cool off before I begin driving. End timer gives less time to cool but the battery spends less time sitting at 100% SOC. I've been using end timer because 1) it seems that the Nissan battery degrades like crazy no matter what you do to it, so why even try to baby it? And 2) end timer is more friendly to utility grids since they don't have every car in the county all starting to charge at the stroke of midnight. In fact I'm surprised that utilities haven't come up with some rate incentive for drivers to stagger their start times, as will probably be needed if/when EV's comprise a significant portion of cars on the road.

 

[DaveEV]

I believe that using the latest end-time on your end-timer is best for your battery. Not only does it let the battery cool off more before charging to a higher SOC, but you get less time spent at high SOC. Not to mention the random start times which should help the grid, too.

gbshaun who lives near me stopped charging to 80% on timer after losing his first bar and started charging to 100% as soon as he got home. We lost our first bars within 2 weeks of each other, but now he's already lost his 3rd bar and has about 3 Ah less than me, so since changing charging habits, he started losing capacity a lot faster than me.

 

[RegGuheert]

I just took a look at these rates out of curiosity since I do not have TOU rates here. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Simply put, your electricity rates are extremely high. In the wintertime, there is very little TOU involved, but you pay AT LEAST $0.18/kWh. In the summertime, you can charge your vehicle at $0.17/kWh, but most of your loads are using electricity at $0.22/kWh or even $0.48/kWh. Uggh!

The only saving grace I can see in the entire arrangement is that you have a $0.30/kWh difference between On-Peak and Super Off-Peak in the summertime. That allows you to install enough PV for all of your electricity needs and have it pay for itself very quickly. This effectively lowers your electricity rates to, or even below, the national average.

But for anyone without PV, the fuel costs for an EV are going to be quite a bit higher than elsewhere, making it difficult to pay for the additional cost of the vehicle.

By comparison, my electricity rates are in the process of ramping up to $0.12/kWh for the first 300 kWh each month and then $0.09/kWh thereafter. (I have no idea why they reward consumption this way. I suppose it is the same as have a larger fixed fee for most customers.)

I guess I can see a real market for the Enphase AC Battery TOU customers. (Is that everyone?) I think I'd be installing those (when available) as well as putting my water heater, etc. on timers to eliminate all electricity consumption from noon to 6:00PM. After all that you are STILL paying more than $0.17/kWh PLUS the cost of the timers and AC batteries.

 

[electricfuture]

Thanks Randy for the link to the table. I could not find it when I searched SDG&E's site. This is the type of table that should be on your monthly bill. Just add 2 columns on the right - one for kWh used and the second for your cost at that rate. Also the description column should have the time of day for each so you know when they they are in effect. Just that simple and the billing would be transparent - unlike the current table. Hope you can help get this changed - I have tried 3 times to no avail.

I talk to the net-metering rep today and learned that yes indeed they plan on increasing the minimum net zero payment current about $5 per month to possibly twice that. However, she explained that if you sign up before the change you will be "Grandfathered" in at the old rate.

So for EV TOU-2 you can be credited as much as $.48 per kWh during summer peak and $.21 during winter peak for excess generation. However, at the end of the 12 month "true up" from the time you energized the PV anything beyond zero will be refunded at the "wholesale rate' of $.04 per kWh. So you are really saving up credits during summer peak generation to offset your winter costs. She said though that you could roll the credit forward at the actual purchase rate rather than cashing out at the wholesale rate.

 

[Randy]

I just took a look at these rates out of curiosity since I do not have TOU rates here. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Simply put, your electricity rates are extremely high. In the wintertime, there is very little TOU involved, but you pay AT LEAST $0.18/kWh. In the summertime, you can charge your vehicle at $0.17/kWh, but most of your loads are using electricity at $0.22/kWh or even $0.48/kWh. Uggh!

The only saving grace I can see in the entire arrangement is that you have a $0.30/kWh difference between On-Peak and Super Off-Peak in the summertime. That allows you to install enough PV for all of your electricity needs and have it pay for itself very quickly. This effectively lowers your electricity rates to, or even below, the national average.

But for anyone without PV, the fuel costs for an EV are going to be quite a bit higher than elsewhere, making it difficult to pay for the additional cost of the vehicle.

By comparison, my electricity rates are in the process of ramping up to $0.12/kWh for the first 300 kWh each month and then $0.09/kWh thereafter. (I have no idea why they reward consumption this way. I suppose it is the same as have a larger fixed fee for most customers.)

I guess I can see a real market for the Enphase AC Battery TOU customers. (Is that everyone?) I think I'd be installing those (when available) as well as putting my water heater, etc. on timers to eliminate all electricity consumption from noon to 6:00PM. After all that you are STILL paying more than $0.17/kWh PLUS the cost of the timers and AC batteries.

Reg,
It's a very interesting situation. Rates per kWh are definitely higher here, but average bills are lower than other parts of the US because of the temperate weather and low average use. As you probably know, the fixed costs have to be collected to run the grid no matter what, so the price per kWh reflects that with the lower average usage. If we all used triple the kWh per month due to the weather, it would be cheaper per unit but bills would be higher.

I installed solar last summer and have learned a lot about how things work with the PV system itself and the TOU rates with NEM. I can help answer any questions people might have about that...

 

[Sondy132001]

You can switch to an EV rate such as EV-TOU2 by going to the EV page on the SDG&E website: http://www.sdge.com/ev" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and then click on the "Change to EV rate" on the left side and fill out the form...

It is true that you are credited with the retail TOU price for energy generated during the day and then you will be billed at the TOU price for energy consumed in the various time periods. A true up occurs each year, so from month to month you can carry surpluses or deficits over.

At the end of the annual true up period, your account will be settled up. If you use more than you generate, an amount will be due. if you end up with excess generation, then you will be paid back at a wholesale rate. So it is to your advantage to not over generate too much.

Gas is usually billed separately, so excess generation cannot be applied to gas purchases.

I installed solar recently and am finding that the EV-TOU2 rate works very well for me. There is a triple-whammy (tm) financial multiplication effect of generating during the day on peak during the summer and charging cars at night during super off peak that is very nice....And while there is a financial benefit to the customer for doing that, there is also a benefit to the utility and other ratepayers because charging cars late at night avoids additional infrastructure investment (so everyone saves longterm)...

Thanks for this information I just signed up for the TOU-2 and now I will work on getting my EVSE upgrade ! Again thanks !

 

[davewill]

I just had an interesting experience that shows the utility of EVTOU2. I had applied last September and it seemed like I had been accepted. In actuality they had rejected me because they were confused about my former participation in the EV Study, but they never sent a rejection notice. Being oblivious I didn't notice I was still on DR until yesterday. So I called and asked about it, and SDG&E decided it was their fault, switched me over as of last October and redid the billing from last October to now. So I got a nice side-by-side comparison of what the changeover did for me.

The accounting on the bill is pretty screwy, but I was finally able to follow it and it appears to be correct. For those who are interested even though this was almost all winter rates I still saw significant improvement.

Reversed Charges

Service Type	Billing Period	Original Amount ($)	Corrected Amount ($)	Amount Not Requiring Correction ($)
Electric	Oct 06, 2014 - Nov 04, 2014	149.08	 35.49	0.00
Electric	Nov 04, 2014 - Dec 07, 2014	158.26	128.91	0.00
Electric	Dec 07, 2014 - Jan 07, 2015	275.56	186.81	0.00
Electric	Jan 07, 2015 - Feb 05, 2015	226.11	152.57	0.00
Electric	Feb 05, 2015 - Mar 09, 2015	125.89	 98.59	0.00
Electric	Mar 09, 2015 - Apr 07, 2015	-15.31	-27.49	0.00
Electric	Apr 07, 2015 - May 07, 2015	 22.03	  5.10	0.00
Total Charges									$941.62  $579.98  $0.00

This is charging my RAV4EV and our Prius Plugin during Super-Off peak, and not running any unnecessary appliances during peak. We have not tried to delay clothes or dish washing until after midnight, just waiting until after six. My true-up is in July, and I don't think I'll quite make it down to zero by then, but I'll be close. I think I'll definitely manage to zero out next year.

 

[smkettner]

The only saving grace I can see in the entire arrangement is that you have a $0.30/kWh difference between On-Peak and Super Off-Peak in the summertime. That allows you to install enough PV for all of your electricity needs and have it pay for itself very quickly. This effectively lowers your electricity rates to, or even below, the national average.

SCE is similar. This month I net used 300 kWh and have a credit bill for $13
This really turns the table on these crazy rates.

What is never talked about with net metering is that solar provides power mostly at on-peak times. Only through TOU rates does the net metering customer get credit for providing the on-peak power.

 

[Valdemar]

The only saving grace I can see in the entire arrangement is that you have a $0.30/kWh difference between On-Peak and Super Off-Peak in the summertime. That allows you to install enough PV for all of your electricity needs and have it pay for itself very quickly. This effectively lowers your electricity rates to, or even below, the national average.

SCE is similar. This month I net used 300 kWh and have a credit bill for $13
This really turns the table on these crazy rates.

What is never talked about with net metering is that solar provides power mostly at on-peak times. Only through TOU rates does the net metering customer get credit for providing the on-peak power.

If you're lucky to have a South or South-West facing solar array considering SCE defines on-peak as 2-8 in the afternoon.

 

[electricfuture]

It's a very interesting situation. Rates per kWh are definitely higher here, but average bills are lower than other parts of the US because of the temperate weather and low average use. As you probably know, the fixed costs have to be collected to run the grid no matter what, so the price per kWh reflects that with the lower average usage. If we all used triple the kWh per month due to the weather, it would be cheaper per unit but bills would be higher.

Because we are living in a very mild climate the "fixed cost" to operate are significantly lower than most utilities. SDG&E true operating costs would be very difficult to obtain as this is an easy way to show less taxable profitability by merely inflating operating cost. Most likely if SDG&E reports "average utility operating cost" they will not be audited as there would be no "red flag" even though reality indicates they should be less. Moreover, SDG&E customers have an "average" utility bill compared to the rest of the country. This is another way they can avoid scrutiny from Federal regulators.

Secondly the "wholesale" price paid for excess generation is only $0.04. Where can you buy peak period power (mid day) for that rate??? I can't think of anywhere. So excess PV generation is very profitable for SDG&E - buy at $0.04 and sell in excess of $0.40 at mid day when solar power contributes to the grid. You can say "but their buying my power at the higher rate". No they are crediting you at the hire rate. At true up you are happy to have a zero balance or a little positive. It virtually didn't cost SDG&E anything to do this.

Anyway this will be a mute point in a few months as SDG&E is in the process of reducing NET metering rates advantages by 75% as soon as October. If you are already in or submit your request before then you will be "grandfathered' in at the current rates.

 

[Randy]

It's a very interesting situation. Rates per kWh are definitely higher here, but average bills are lower than other parts of the US because of the temperate weather and low average use. As you probably know, the fixed costs have to be collected to run the grid no matter what, so the price per kWh reflects that with the lower average usage. If we all used triple the kWh per month due to the weather, it would be cheaper per unit but bills would be higher.

Because we are living in a very mild climate the "fixed cost" to operate are significantly lower than most utilities. SDG&E true operating costs would be very difficult to obtain as this is an easy way to show less taxable profitability by merely inflating operating cost. Most likely if SDG&E reports "average utility operating cost" they will not be audited as there would be no "red flag" even though reality indicates they should be less. Moreover, SDG&E customers have an "average" utility bill compared to the rest of the country. This is another way they can avoid scrutiny from Federal regulators.

Secondly the "wholesale" price paid for excess generation is only $0.04. Where can you buy peak period power (mid day) for that rate??? I can't think of anywhere. So excess PV generation is very profitable for SDG&E - buy at $0.04 and sell in excess of $0.40 at mid day when solar power contributes to the grid. You can say "but their buying my power at the higher rate". No they are crediting you at the hire rate. At true up you are happy to have a zero balance or a little positive. It virtually didn't cost SDG&E anything to do this.

Anyway this will be a mute point in a few months as SDG&E is in the process of reducing NET metering rates advantages by 75% as soon as October. If you are already in or submit your request before then you will be "grandfathered' in at the current rates.

What I meant by "fixed costs" has to do with the money necessary to build and maintain the grid itself. The point that I was trying to make is that our customers use less on average than areas that have extreme weather. In fact, the average customer here uses about 500 kWh per month, which isn't a lot as compared to some parts of the country. So the money that it costs to build and maintain the grid is reflected in the per kwh price and since there are fewer kwh to spread that out to, the average price tends to be higher as compared to areas where the average customer usage is 2,000 kWh per month.

As far as your use of the phrase "Grandfathered", be aware that it refers to your NEM status and being able to sell surplus energy back to the grid at the prevailing retail price (as an undergenerator for the year). TOU periods may change, rates may change, but your grandfathered status means than you'll be able to sell your surplus back to the grid. The CPUC has an open proceeding called NEM 2.0 that is not yet finished, and that will dictate what rules the next generation of PV customers will see. I'm in the business, and as much as I've been trying to follow NEM 2.0, I don't yet see that there will be a 75% drop in rate advantages. It is still a work in progress as far as I can see. NEM 2.0 is expected to apply to newly installed PV systems around the end of 2016...I hope that info helps...

 

[electricfuture]

Thanks Randy. I did see a reported number reducing the rate but that was apparently speculative. An SDG&E employee at the Balboa Park "Garden Party" event advised me that SDG&E is trying to accelerate the rate change to October.

As far as building grid extensions are these charged to Mello-Roos like other services for new housing areas?

I am sure you understand my frustration, as you too are a customer. We have the highest rates in the country 4 of the last 5 years (now second) - during the Great Recession, and further rate increases are scheduled. This is from the Nov. 4, 2014 U-T paper:

SDG&E profits for the third quarter rose 22 percent to $157 million from $129 million.

To me electricity and water are necessities in life and should not be a "for profit" business or at least not for excessive profit.

My PV Solar should be installed in a few months and I am already looking forward to eventually getting a Tesla battery pack thanks to SDG&E's projected excessive rates.

 

[ttweed]

The proposed change to net-metering policy has finally got me considering installation of a PV system in order to be grandfathered into NEM before the cap is reached in 2016. In researching what the current and possible future SDG&E policy is/might be regarding residential solar, I happened onto this site:
http://votesolar.org/2015/08/13/ca-utilities-want-to-replace-net-metering-with-what/

In a nutshell, this says that what SDG&E proposes for the future is:
•requiring future solar customers to choose from one of two options: either a buy all-credit all arrangement where all solar generation is conveyed to the utility for a fraction of the retail rate, or a new rate that will include a monthly system access fee of about $21/month for residential customers and $69/month for small commercial customers, and a shockingly high monthly demand charge of $9/kW,
•requiring solar customers to pay new interconnection costs of $280,
•like PG&E, changing the netting period, i.e. how long solar customers can carry bill credits forward, from yearly to monthly, and
•ending virtual net metering, requiring instead the buy all-credit all arrangement at a fraction of the retail rate.

Is this correct, Randy? It sounds odious for the future of solar, to say the least. I signed the petition linked on that page to protect net-metering and solar development going forward.

From revisiting this thread, it seems to me that the obvious choice, if I do install a PV system, is to elect the TOU2 rate schedule. Is that what will work the best? Is it still working well for you, drees and Randy? I'm a little confused by the DR-SES tariff option discussion.

We use about 650 kWhs/month, or about 7800/year, half of which is for the EV charging at night on super off-peak. I am considering installing a 5,23 kW system to offset 100% of my usage and have a bid for $19,500 installed, which works out to $3.75/watt. The Fed tax credit will reduce that investment to around $14,000, which seems like a no-brainer to me for 20 years of electricity, but what will happen in the future is still an unknown.

Thx,
TT

 

[DaveEV]

From revisiting this thread, it seems to me that the obvious choice, if I do install a PV system, is to elect the TOU2 rate schedule. Is that what will work the best? Is it still working well for you, drees and Randy?

So far, EV-TOU2 is working great for me. 3.3 kW DC system, generates about 5000 kWh / year. Net usage still around 4000 kWh / year (so about 9000 kWh total / year), LEAF is about 2500-2800 kWh of that 4000 kWh.

I paid about $400 to SDG&E over the last year for that 4000 kWh, but that would have cost me at least $800 if I didn't have solar, not to mention the other 5000 kWh I self-consumed - a lot of which would have been billed at 50c / kWh.

I estimate that if I add another 1500 kWh / year of solar generation (about 1 kW DC), I'd be paying just the minimum billing about to SDG&E.