SDG&E EV study rate increase

[davekern]

Has anyone seen their latest SDG&E EV rates for those of us that were in the EV study? All my TOU rates tripled to quadrupled overnight. They have been relatively constant for 3 years and then they pull this. The normal rates didn't do that. I called and they said that they get approval from the state and that is what they came up with. That is totally different than what they have been telling us the last three years. I was told the study would continue until the end of the year. Great. Now they say that doesn't apply to rates. To me, that is the only reason to be in the study!

Disappointing. It will be great to see those thieves out of business in a generation thanks to new technology like solar and affordable battery storage. Sad I won't see much of it. Hopefully their demise...

 

[derkraut]

I'm TOU with SDG&E; and my rates went up very little--maybe about 4% or so. Maybe you're comparing summer rates with winter rates? At any rate, we use very little electricity @ our house. We have the separate meter for the Leaf. We average around 3 cents per mile for electricity on the Leaf over the past 12 months.

 

[kieranmullen]

Can you combine TOU will solar to make more money during the day?

 

[smkettner]

Can you combine TOU will solar to make more money during the day?

I do with SCE

 

[walterbays]

Has anyone seen their latest SDG&E EV rates for those of us that were in the EV study? All my TOU rates tripled to quadrupled overnight.

I hope this is a billing error that will be corrected. Else SDG&E fumbled rather badly in a number of ways.

Recall they held meetings in Aug. 2013 to talk about new rates that would be going into effect in Jan. 2014. Feedback at the meeting I attended was pretty strong that if the super off-peak discount were greatly weakened then most of us would drop off the EV rates onto DR and would probably charge less during off-peak hours. Then in Sep. 2013 SDG&E announced that the experimental EV Project rates would be extended through the end of 2014 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=323444#p323444 and we would have plenty of time before the change to select our rate plan. Now without any notice they've changed some - apparently not all - of us to much more expensive rates.

As my car ages and its battery degrades I have to charge during the day more often, but still I have been charging 86% off-peak, 75% super-off-peak. That equates to $0.16/kWh overall on my EV Project summer rate schedule. With the rates on my current SDG&E bill that has gone to $0.28/kWh.

By comparison, should I terminate my EV TOU second meter and charge with the house on DR baseline rates it's $0.13/kWh, or in tier 2 $0.16/kWh, tier 3 $0.27/kWh. And that's with all the convenience of charging whenever I feel like it, day or night, including the utility's worst fear - plugging in to recharge the moment I arrive back home.

Even worse for the grid, my marginal cost of daytime QC at eVgo is about $0.26/kWh. So whether I need the charge or not, my average cost is lower if I draw 50 kW demand during peak grid load rather than charging at home. And if I do need the charge, then the cost of getting it at eVgo is about half that of getting it at home with peak TOU rates.

 

[DaveEV]

I'm curious as to what the old/new rates are for those who say their rates have "tripled" as I'm not seeing that here as of my last bill a couple weeks ago.

Can you combine TOU will solar to make more money during the day?

Yes, you can use a whole-house TOU rate with SDG&E such as the DR-SES rate. Or you could use whole-house EV-TOU2.

The Winter EV-TOU2 rates are actually cheaper no matter how you slice it compared to DR-SES.
The Summer rates are a bit more complicated.

Biggest differences between the two plans:

DR-SES peak rates only apply to weekdays. Weekends/holidays are charged at off-peak rates.

EV-TOU super-off-peak rate is significantly cheaper at $0.16 / kWh in the Summer compared to the DR-SES off-peak rate of $0.19 / kWh. TOU rates apply weekends/holidays.

It's really hard to tell whether EV-TOU or DR-SES would be better on a single-meter system if you have solar. DR-SES gets you an extra hour of prime generation time as peak starts at 11am instead of 12pm. But you lose out on weekends and holidays when your system is probably generating a lot electricity. I estimate that in general, the extra 2 days of peak TOU rates will in general more than offset the loss of an hour 7 days a week so in general, the EV-TOU2 whole house rate should be better than DR-SES if you have enough solar PV to make a TOU rate worth while, though I think the difference will be minimal.

What's really needed is a way to run your historic data through different rate structures for the last year so you can make an educated decision. The only way I know of to do this now is to use Bidgely, but it's a bit of a pain. (actually, now that I've done it it appears that I should switch from my current setup of DR + EV-TOU meter to whole house EV-TOU2 - doing so would have dropped my annual bill from ~$680 last 12 months to $490).

 

[walterbays]

I'm curious as to what the old/new rates are for those who say their rates have "tripled" as I'm not seeing that here as of my last bill a couple weeks ago.

Mine are up a time-of-use weighted average of 80%. Winter increase would be up only 18%. (edit: "triple" may refer to summer peak rates, especially for those who were on the lowest differential experimental rate)

Summer
Peak          Off-peak    Super
.53265      .33366       .13641

Winter
Peak          Off-peak    Super
.29733      .19702       .09571

 

[ranss12]

With rates that high, how can solar PV not be the best investment you can make? I only pay about 11.5 cents/kwh round the clock and I'm still very happy with my investment in solar.

 

[hill]

Can you combine TOU will solar to make more money during the day?

I do with SCE

I'd hardly call it making 'money'. The surplus kWh's above what we use each year are in the 4 figures. SoCal Edison writes us a check for somewhere between $100-$150. That works out to around 3¢ /kWh. Whoop de do.
:lol:
Bottom line is, knocking out the top tiers is what truly amortized PV the quickest - not the bone they throw you for excess above what you use.
.

 

[walterbays]

I'd hardly call it making 'money'. The surplus kWh's above what we use each year are in the 4 figures. SoCal Edison writes us a check for somewhere between $100-$150. That works out to around 3¢ /kWh. Whoop de do.
:lol:
Bottom line is, knocking out the top tiers is what truly amortized PV the quickest - not the bone they throw you for excess above what you use.

And remember the utilities are constantly trying to change the regulations so that they can charge you to take away your surplus kWh. I do think solar homes should pay our fair share of local distribution grid costs, to get my surplus daytime energy over to my neighbor's house. But we should not pay much of remote transmission line and power plant construction costs, to get our energy from a distant natural gas or coal plant.

From an EV viewpoint the worst thing about SDG&E's new rates if they stick is they remove most incentive for cars to charge overnight, removing most ability for EV charging to use surplus night time wind production and to maintain base load plants at efficient operating levels.

The best thing for us to do will be to add more solar panels to make sure that our net consumption - including possibly a second plug-in car - will not be more than the second tier, and will not be less than zero. Short term the best thing to do is plug in on home current any time it's convenient, using the (less efficient) Nissan L1 EVSE, and to QC at eVgo any time it's convenient.

 

[davekern]

I hope this is a billing error that will be corrected. Else SDG&E fumbled rather badly in a number of ways.

I called and talked to Randy Williams at SDG&E. His direct number is (858) 636-1943. Anyway, according to him they can change the rates and have no duty to tell us or anything. This is contrary to the letters and other documents they supplied us with for being in the study. He says, "As long as the state says ok". I found a letter dated October 17 referring to the August meeting and have sense called where they say we will have the current pricing plan through December 2014 as they are continuing the study. On the rate "tariff" scheduled it says the rates will stay until the study ends, thus December 2014. So they are wrong. Too bad I have to spend hours and hours to get them to keep their word. Totally unethical behavior.

He said no one else has called so it must just be me. I urge you to call if you are in the study. I did go to the August meeting and the spirit of the meeting was to communicate changes to us early so we could react. They have broken that trust. We'll see how it goes. Please call and complain. I don't think they can do this.

Dave

BTW - I do have solar that covers most of the house. I was going to add more in January to cover the car but held off because it doesn't make sense with the rates I was getting. Now it does with the new rates but it will take time... I would have done it if I had known!

 

[walterbays]

I urge you to call if you are in the study.

I'll complain. I won't give Randy a hard time though. I'm certain that he told us what he believed to be the truth at the time. And even SDG&E's fumbled communications compare very well with Nissan's total lack of communications. At least they are trying to engage with the EV community here, on Facebook, in letters, and in community meetings. Even SDG&E reneging on their promises to maintain the EV Project rates through 2014 and to give ample notice of rate changes, isn't as bad as Nissan reneging on their promise to sell replacement batteries.

It's alarming if they really are allowed to unilaterally increase rates 80%+ overnight with no notice and no regulatory approval. But I have the same choice as with other overpriced products, not to buy. Sky high gas? Switch to EV. Sky high EV-TOU? Switch to DR. Sky high grid electricity? Switch to solar.

 

[ttweed]

Has anyone seen their latest SDG&E EV rates for those of us that were in the EV study?

What billing period--May?? I haven't seen the increase yet, but my last bill came on May 8. This sounds very disappointing, because the last communication from SDG&E definitely said there would be no changes until 2015! I don't get it.... :?: :?:

TT

 

[davekern]

No changes is how I understood it also. Yes it was my May bill that I go a few days ago when the rates changed from Winter to Summer. The percentage change may depend on which study rate plan you are on X, Y or Z. I believe the rates changed effective May 1. Since I only had a few days in May charged the increase was only about a 20% increase. It will make my gas car look almost on par with the EV with a whole month...

 

[DaveEV]

Mine are up a time-of-use weighted average of 80%. Winter increase would be up only 18%. (edit: "triple" may refer to summer peak rates, especially for those who were on the lowest differential experimental rate)

Summer
 Peak       Off-peak    Super
.53265      .33366       .13641

Winter
 Peak       Off-peak      Super
.29733      .19702       .09571

Are these your new rates or old rates? Were you on the low, medium or high spread rate?

I was on the low spread EPEV-X rate. Yes, my rate has gone up, but it's gone up the same as the regular EV-TOU rate as the -X rate was similar to the EV-TOU rate.

Comparing EV-TOU before/after May 1 2014 - old rates are above the new rates:

Summer
  Peak    Off-peak    Super
0.31334   0.19398   0.16483 (4/1/14-4/30/14)
0.43989   0.20321   0.16076 (5/1/14-Present)

Winter
  Peak    Off-peak    Super
0.20510   0.19678   0.16728 (4/1/14-4/30/14)
0.20176   0.19173   0.17174 (5/1/14-Present)

These rates are basically the same as the EPEV-X rates that I'm on.

Now looking at the fine print of my last bill, what one can see is that for some reason the new rate structure really shifts on-peak cost of electricity from delivery to generation. Not sure why...

It will make my gas car look almost on par with the EV with a whole month...

That's impossible unless you're paying $0.30 / kWh and your other car is a Prius.

 

[davekern]

Heard back from SDG&E and also got a full month bill. Not as bad as I had expected but still totally unfair and unethical to jack the rates up after they committed to keeping them the same. SDG&E said there is nothing they could do. SDG&E said it was a case of one department not knowing what another had committed to and that a letter was going out to all study participants. It will be interesting to see how they spin it...

Since there were only 430 participants in the study, and many probably left after returning their Leaf upon lease expiration, they are probably rolling the dice that they can get away with just raising the rates and no one will do anything. Not enough people for an attorney to get involved, I checked with a friend who does this work. Not enough money is involved for someone to take on the case. I do have a lead for a media outlet to do a segment on it, SDG&E not holding up their side. Anyone else interested in potentially participating please let me know.

 

[smkettner]

44 cents is a good selling price for solar power.

 

[walterbays]

Are these your new rates or old rates? Were you on the low, medium or high spread rate?

I was on the EV Project experimental Y (mid spread) rate. Here is how my rates have changed.

Summer
        EV-Project Y
        Delivery        Generation      Bond            Total
Peak    $0.11845        $0.16910        $0.00493        $0.29248
Off     $0.11281        $0.06621        $0.00493        $0.18395
Super   $0.03062        $0.04081        $0.00493        $0.07636

        EV-TOU
        Delivery        Generation      Bond            Total
Peak    $0.21089        $0.32176        $0.00513        $0.53778
Off     $0.24858        $0.08508        $0.00513        $0.33879
Super   $0.09378        $0.04263        $0.00513        $0.14154

        Rate Increase
        Delivery        Generation      Total
Peak    78%             90%             84%
Off     120%            29%             84%
Super   206%            4%              85%

Winter
        EV-Project Y
        Delivery        Generation      Bond            Total
Peak    $0.16442        $0.07566        $0.00493        $0.24501
Off     $0.08973        $0.06868        $0.00493        $0.16334
Super   $0.03297        $0.04296        $0.00493        $0.08086

        EV-TOU
        Delivery        Generation      Bond            Total
Peak    $0.21142        $0.08591        $0.00513        $0.30246
Off     $0.11903        $0.07799        $0.00513        $0.20215
Super   $0.04692        $0.04879        $0.00513        $0.10084

        Rate Increase
        Delivery        Generation      Total
Peak    29%             14%             23%
Off     33%             14%             24%
Super   42%             14%             25%

When I was on EV Project rates and my battery was new the first 70 miles (80% charge) of a winter day (using overnight electricity) cost 3 cents a mile with additional miles at 8 cents/mile, whether charging at home peak rates or at Blink public stations. The first 70 miles of a summer day cost 2 cents/mile, with additional miles at 9 cents/mile. By comparison driving our second ICE car would cost about 20 cents a mile for gasoline.

With SDG&E's new rates my degraded battery charged to 80% will take me the first 50 miles of a winter day at 3 cents/mile - the same as before - with additional miles at 10 cents/mile - a modest increase. The first miles of a summer day cost 5 cents/mile with additional miles at 17 cents/mile. That makes even the poor gas mileage ICE with no range anxiety look okay.

A Volt looks better still with close to the same electric range as my old Leaf and much better gas mileage than my ICE. It would take me the first 40 miles at almost the same cost, 3 cents/mile in winter and 5 cents/mile in summer, with additional miles (on gasoline) at 11 cents/mile.

But I can do better than that with my Leaf. If I buy my additional miles from eVgo quick charging, the incremental cost is about 6 cents/mile, just over 1/3 of the cost of charging at home in the summer, and well under the cost of ICE.

And I can do better still. If I forget about EV-TOU rates and put the car on my house meter on the DR rate my solar panels keep me in the first tier and the cost is 5 cents/mile, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

 

[davekern]

Here were/are the rates... It's not that the rates are super bad, it's more the deception and we can do whatever we want, we have a monopoly that bothers me. I wouldn't commit to my clients something in a letter and then change it and just say tough, nothing you can do. Oh yeah, I don't have a state sponsored monopoly.

I think expanding my solar and then getting batteries from Elon Musk when they are available is the way to end this. Another decade and it might come back to bite them. That's why Larry Page said that if he died he would give his fortune to Elon.

Original Revised Increase $ Increase %
On-Peak Summer 0.38390 0.73510 0.35120 91.48%
Off-Peak Summer 0.15356 0.29500 0.14144 92.11%
Super Off-Peak Summer 0.06723 0.12916 0.06193 92.12%

On-Peak Winter 0.34019 0.63922 0.29903 87.90%
Off-Peak Winter 0.13607 0.25569 0.11962 87.91%
Super Off-Peak Winter 0.07043 0.13234 0.06191 87.90%

 

[walterbays]

Here were/are the rates... It's not that the rates are super bad, it's more the deception and we can do whatever we want, we have a monopoly that bothers me. I wouldn't commit to my clients something in a letter and then change it and just say tough, nothing you can do. Oh yeah, I don't have a state sponsored monopoly.

I agree it's not that the new rates are so bad; we were getting a great deal before. I do think that Hanlon's Razor best explains the abrupt change without notification. I think one department just doesn't know what another department is doing. Shrewd monopolist villainy would be a better explanation where more money were at stake for them

To me the worst thing about the new rates is they provide no incentive to stay on a TOU rate and no incentive to charge overnight. As the number of EVs grows SDG&E may come to regret their choice.

I would prefer competition, and where there can be no competition then I'd prefer the monopoly be run by government, or at least be very heavily and competently regulated. California almost got it right once before 2000, but left transmission in private hands inadequately regulated, which led to the criminal conspiracies and blackouts to extort money from the state.

I'd like the local distribution monopolies to be owned by local government, intra-state distribution lines owned by the state, and inter-state distribution networks owned by the federal government. Then I'd like lots of competition among private generation companies. And for quick charging I'd love to see the state allow SDG&E to enter that market to give NRG some real competition.