SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[Randy]

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/05/23/gm-strikes-out-against-chademo-dc-fast-charging/

. . . . . Shad Balch, GM's manager of environment and energy policy, said during a recent public hearing in California that there should be a CHAdeMO embargo, "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards [i.e., the SAE combo plug] are installed going forward," . . . . . . . snip

Call me wacky, but if Shad's so worried about tax payer money . . . maybe he can see to it that GM buy's back the 1/2 interest that the fed's still own in GM stock, before he worries about trying to create a chademo embargo.

+1 Hill

-1000 Shad

 

[TonyWilliams]

The big question is, would you buy another Leaf with a CHAdeMO when in a year or two? Honestly? We'll still buy one but only because of the 6.6 L2, there are no DC stations and since we're leasing I don't care as much about the resale value being hurt by CHAdeMO.

Yes, I would.

Congrats to GM for making people question this. I just read that the New York taxi deal is now "unknown" what standard they may use.

Again, bravo GM for throwing confusion and doubt that should successfully slow Nissan down. To what amount, we will have to see.

 

[hill]

Congrats to GM for making people question this. I just read that the New York taxi deal is now "unknown" what standard they may use.

Again, bravo GM for throwing confusion and doubt that should successfully slow Nissan down. To what amount, we will have to see.

Yes - if you have NO offering for public EV's in volume, and/or in a mid level price, then I guess the best you can do is try and torch the competition. I'm reminded of when Pringles potato chips came out. Pringles were so novel, that it was hurting the competition (Laura Scudder, Lays, etc) . . . so the competition all got together ... had a big meeting with the food regulators to ban Pringles from calling their product potato chips, since their chips were formed potato goo, rather than potato slices.

 

[DANandNAN]

Here is another intersting perspective on all this infrastructure stuff.

There are 47,182 miles of interstates in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

If we were to install a Fast Charger every 40 miles on every interstate in the US it would be aproximatly 1180 fast chargers. If they all cost the current $50K a piece, that is $59 Million dollars for that infrastructure.

We to date have spent over $1T on the Iraq and Afganistan wars:

http://costofwar.com/en/

That $59M would be less than the cost of 5 hours of funding for the wars.

It's only a good idea if people are actually going to use it. Again, most LEAF OWNERS don't use them, either because they don't want to pay or don't want to wait or don't want to risk damaging their battery because there's no TMS. If Leaf owners aren't willing to wait, how are you going to convince the general public that it's a good idea?

Speed & better batteries are the answer, not $59M that most folks won't use and will resent.

 

[DANandNAN]

Nor does it explain HOW the SAE proposal addresses/fixes all of his criticisms about CHAdeMO and QC in general (Cost, speed, utility, etc).
=Smidge=

I don't think I said it would, did I? I said I don't want to spend taxpayer money on an infrastructure that one car can use when 9 other manufacturers have said they're going a different direction. The only reply I get to that is "the car hasn't been built yet & we were here first!" My kids, my kids classmates and even the kids at the zoo don't whine this much about being first.

And yes, the range for us would be 65 highway miles because I'm not taking it to turtle/flatbed.

 

[DANandNAN]

Forget about DC chargers and their high expenses.. lets use a built-in AC charger that can handle 43kW.. The Renault Chamaleon charger in the Zoe is my example.

Yes, a third connector.

The Tesla, with the optional dual chargers charges at 63 miles/hr.

 

[DANandNAN]

Congrats to GM for making people question this. I just read that the New York taxi deal is now "unknown" what standard they may use.

Again, bravo GM for throwing confusion and doubt that should successfully slow Nissan down. To what amount, we will have to see.

Yes - if you have NO offering for public EV's in volume, and/or in a mid level price, then I guess the best you can do is try and torch the competition. I'm reminded of when Pringles potato chips came out. Pringles were so novel, that it was hurting the competition (Laura Scudder, Lays, etc) . . . so the competition all got together ... had a big meeting with the food regulators to ban Pringles from calling their product potato chips, since their chips were formed potato goo, rather than potato slices.

You folks really have it in for GM :roll: Never mind the fact that 8 other manufacturers have announced that the SAE Combo is what they will be using. GM is the enemy :lol:

As to the NY taxi EV's, that's GOOD NEWS for EV. Reconsidering a decision that would waste taxpayer dollars is VERY SMART. The last thing the EV community needs is another black eye because they went with a standard used by one car. Sure, it's not good news for current Leaf's, but future Leaf's will benefit just as future cars will from the Big 9.

By the way, Ecotality was a talking point on Faux News and Mitt's targeting them as well. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57442806-503544/romney-keeps-focus-on-economy-as-hes-about-to-clinch-gop-nomination/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then, there's his talk about repealing the EV tax credits. But, yeah, let's rush out a charging station that only one car can use - I'm sure that's not going to be more fodder for the Right.

 

[palmermd]

dan, since you don't seem to like the car, the charger, the dc charge port, the range, or anything else Leaf, may I suggest you spend less time here and more at... http://chevysparkforum.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

You folks really have it in for GM :roll: Never mind the fact that 8 other manufacturers have announced that the SAE Combo is what they will be using. GM is the enemy :lol:
...
But, yeah, let's rush out a charging station that only one car can use - I'm sure that's not going to be more fodder for the Right.

Ok, so, please list the other cars that will use Frankenplug, their shipment time frames and projected sales at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, if they're not already there.

What do you mean by "let's rush out a charging station that only one car can use"? There are two main ones at http://www.chademo.com/03_EVs_compatible_with_CHAdeMO.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, the Leaf and i-Miev along w/its two rebadged versions. How many of these have been deployed? How many of these are currently being sold? How many CHAdeMO stations are there? Supposedly 1393.

How do these numbers compare to Frankenplug?

As for GM being the enemy, sure, given the shenanigans they tried to pull at a CA hearing (http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false which has already been discussed.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Nor does it explain HOW the SAE proposal addresses/fixes all of his criticisms about CHAdeMO and QC in general (Cost, speed, utility, etc).
=Smidge=

I don't think I said it would, did I? I said I don't want to spend taxpayer money on an infrastructure that one car can use when 9 other manufacturers have said they're going a different direction. The only reply I get to that is "the car hasn't been built yet & we were here first!" My kids, my kids classmates and even the kids at the zoo don't whine this much about being first.

And yes, the range for us would be 65 highway miles because I'm not taking it to turtle/flatbed.

Dan, if that's all you are getting out of the replies you've gotten you need to go back and read them again. Quite a few folks have put some substantial energy into addressing your concerns and it seems like you are content with just repeating yourself over and over without incorporating any new information.

It's only a good idea if people are actually going to use it. Again, most LEAF OWNERS don't use them, either because they don't want to pay or don't want to wait or don't want to risk damaging their battery because there's no TMS. If Leaf owners aren't willing to wait, how are you going to convince the general public that it's a good idea?

Speed & better batteries are the answer, not $59M that most folks won't use and will resent.

Here in WA state, the cost for now is free, the speed is substantial and the utility of the DC QC network is inspiring people to drive hundreds of miles a day in their Leafs and the network hasn't even officially opened up yet! Sorry Dan, this train has already left the station.

The local Leaf Facebook page has been buzzing for months about the coming quick charging network as people wait anxiously as it is finally being put in place. Reports are coming in daily as people get to try out the new fast chargers with comments like "we've been given a whole new car!". This Friday the network is opening officially to the public, connecting Northern CA to OR, WA and British Columbia. I would suggest to you that once you get your car that you at least try a DC fast charger before being so condemning, but then again, I see you have opted to not even have the choice, something a relatively small minority of Leaf owners have opted for. It seems likely to me that you have taken a very Volt centric perspective on EV's. give it some time, give it a rest!

 

[smkettner]

How many years will it take for SAE-GM QC cars to outnumber CHAdeMo cars?
Nissan has waited 18 months.... why would we be picking on GM if GM has to actually wait the same 18 months to get infrastructure?

 

[DANandNAN]

What do you mean by "let's rush out a charging station that only one car can use"? There are two main ones at http://www.chademo.com/03_EVs_compatible_with_CHAdeMO.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, the Leaf and i-Miev along w/its two rebadged versions. How many of these have been deployed? How many of these are currently being sold? How many CHAdeMO stations are there? Supposedly 1393.

:lol: The i-MiEV stands with the Leaf? I left it out of the comparison out of respect for the Leaf. But, since you're including it, ok. Let's throw it's 300 total sales in with the Leaf's. So, around 13K cars can use these stations - if they're close enough to them. We already know very few would use them if they had to pay AND wait - they'd rather take the ICE. Doing a really rough estimate it's less than 10% of current Leaf (and i-MiEV :lol: ) owners that would pay $25 a pop on a regular basis, not just in an emergency (that's important). Let's double that 10% to 20%, so 2,600 owners and say that everyone that said they'd do it actually lives near a current station. That's one station for every two Leaf's. See a problem there? Occasional users? Sure, but how can all those stations will continue operating? Closing $50K stations will be a huge black eye for EV, I think that's what GM and the rest of the Big 9 were trying to avoid - a rush to market that's doomed.

I'm sure your FB Leaf friends are all very excited to get chargers. L3 will allow you to do what Volt's do, albeit at a much slower speed.

 

[cwerdna]

:lol: The i-MiEV stands with the Leaf? I left it out of the comparison out of respect for the Leaf. But, since you're including it, ok. Let's throw it's 300 total sales in with the Leaf's. So, around 13K cars can use these stations - if they're close enough to them.

Perhaps you didn't read http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8771" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Unfortunately, it doesn't have i-Miev sales broken out but says:

Some 11,563 EVs were sold in Western Europe, with the Mitsubishi MiEV in first place, followed by the Peugeot iON and Citroen C-Zero (I-MiEVs rebranded).
...
Mitsuhiko Yamashita, a Nissan vice president, has some statistics for the electric Leaf. It’s sold 11,000 in the U.S., 13,000 in Japan and just 3,000 in Europe, a fact Yamashita attributed to a late start selling there. But Yamashita said sales are going great in Norway, a country with an EV tradition through native company Think Global.

 

[DANandNAN]

Nor does it explain HOW the SAE proposal addresses/fixes all of his criticisms about CHAdeMO and QC in general (Cost, speed, utility, etc).
=Smidge=

I don't think I said it would, did I? I said I don't want to spend taxpayer money on an infrastructure that one car can use when 9 other manufacturers have said they're going a different direction. The only reply I get to that is "the car hasn't been built yet & we were here first!" My kids, my kids classmates and even the kids at the zoo don't whine this much about being first.

And yes, the range for us would be 65 highway miles because I'm not taking it to turtle/flatbed.

Dan, if that's all you are getting out of the replies you've gotten you need to go back and read them again. Quite a few folks have put some substantial energy into addressing your concerns and it seems like you are content with just repeating yourself over and over without incorporating any new information.

It's only a good idea if people are actually going to use it. Again, most LEAF OWNERS don't use them, either because they don't want to pay or don't want to wait or don't want to risk damaging their battery because there's no TMS. If Leaf owners aren't willing to wait, how are you going to convince the general public that it's a good idea?

Speed & better batteries are the answer, not $59M that most folks won't use and will resent.

Here in WA state, the cost for now is free, the speed is substantial and the utility of the DC QC network is inspiring people to drive hundreds of miles a day in their Leafs and the network hasn't even officially opened up yet! Sorry Dan, this train has already left the station.

The local Leaf Facebook page has been buzzing for months about the coming quick charging network as people wait anxiously as it is finally being put in place. Reports are coming in daily as people get to try out the new fast chargers with comments like "we've been given a whole new car!". This Friday the network is opening officially to the public, connecting Northern CA to OR, WA and British Columbia. I would suggest to you that once you get your car that you at least try a DC fast charger before being so condemning, but then again, I see you have opted to not even have the choice, something a relatively small minority of Leaf owners have opted for. It seems likely to me that you have taken a very Volt centric perspective on EV's. give it some time, give it a rest!

IT'S NOT FREE! You're charging on taxpayers dollars (unless you're at a private station but you didn't mention that). I'm glad you're enjoying it, but if it was so incredible, where's the sales that back up this train you speak of? 370 sales last month and 300 i-meEV :lol: Where's the current Leaf owners saying they'd pay actual costs once your "free" L3 is gone? They're few and far between.

Who are these people that drive hundreds of miles on a daily basis? I've seen one or two, where's the rest of the people on this train that drive hundreds of miles on a daily basis? How many will still do so when your charges aren't paid for by the government (again, that's not free)? I just ran the numbers in another post, and others have done so as well. Supporters posts seem to negate the numbers, and just assume that charging will stay free (or be low cost) without a substantial number of users.

Another perspective is definitely needed here, too many folks are buying CHAdeMO dealers B.S.

 

[Nekota]

Hey I used the Volkswagen Blink DC charger with the CHAdeMO plug and it works just fine. After using this plug, SAE sure has got a task to match the simplicity and symmetry of this robust design. Of course the users won't get to decide if we listen to the Gang of Nine headed by GM and the dumbo plug. Hey Dan - try a CHAdeMO and come away from the dark side.

 

[DANandNAN]

:lol: The i-MiEV stands with the Leaf? I left it out of the comparison out of respect for the Leaf. But, since you're including it, ok. Let's throw it's 300 total sales in with the Leaf's. So, around 13K cars can use these stations - if they're close enough to them.

Perhaps you didn't read http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8771" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Unfortunately, it doesn't have i-Miev sales broken out but says:

Some 11,563 EVs were sold in Western Europe, with the Mitsubishi MiEV in first place, followed by the Peugeot iON and Citroen C-Zero (I-MiEVs rebranded).
...
Mitsuhiko Yamashita, a Nissan vice president, has some statistics for the electric Leaf. It’s sold 11,000 in the U.S., 13,000 in Japan and just 3,000 in Europe, a fact Yamashita attributed to a late start selling there. But Yamashita said sales are going great in Norway, a country with an EV tradition through native company Think Global.

So what :lol: It's still not selling in the U.S., yet you cited it as a reason the U.S. should go CHAdeMO :?

 

[DANandNAN]

Hey I used the Volkswagen Blink DC charger with the CHAdeMO plug and it works just fine. After using this plug, SAE sure has got a task to match the simplicity and symmetry of this robust design. Of course the users won't get to decide if we listen to the Gang of Nine headed by GM and the dumbo plug. Hey Dan - try a CHAdeMO and come away from the dark side.

We're 95% electric. It's pretty bright here

Of course the users will get to decide. All that has to happen is for Leaf owners to buy more than the Big 8 sell, and Nissan's already sold/selling a car with CHAdeMO while the Big 8 aren't. But, how long will it take for BMW, Audi, GM and others to surpass the Leaf, especially if the Leaf's sales stay low? And, how much longer will Nissan continue with the CHAdeMO?

 

[cwerdna]

So what :lol: It's still not selling in the U.S., yet you cited it as a reason the U.S. should go CHAdeMO :?

Huh? I didn't. I was merely trying to mention the other vehicles w/CHAdeMO support and GM's shenanigans.

I still don't get it. Why you trolling here on MNL? You don't have one, don't seem to want one, and keep pushing for a port that doesn't exist on your Volt. It doesn't look like the Frankenplug will physically fit on your Volt either, unless a station ends up having two cords/plugs, J1772 with and w/o Frankenplug.

You're a fanboy for a "standard" that exists on 0 shipping cars and for which there are 0 publicly accessible stations. Some of its "gang" of supporters don't have very credible EV programs. I'm surprised (or not so surprised) that you haven't added any data on future cars w/Frankenplug, ship dates, projected sales volumes, etc. to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I don't think you or anyone else has answered what "problems" Frankenplug is trying to solve. If GM and the gang of 9 gave up on Frankenplug and went w/CHAdeMO, that would solve the a bunch of problems. But no.... that doesn't seem so likely since it seems like their only motives are to hurt competitors who are already shipping cars w/QC.

 

[TimLee]

IT'S NOT FREE!

It is FREE to the individuals doing the DCFC, the same as the cut of capital gains taxes to 15% was a halving of those individual's capital gains tax rate and was a FREE windfall to them.
Having read your multitude of repetitive posts, you still have yet to post ANYTHING that explains any justification for the SAE alternate standard being any better.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I meant it is free for EV drivers now, which is just to say if the "demand charges" you speak of are so crazy high, there would just be no way this could be offered, QC's are doable at least in some areas. if you want some mind blowing numbers, start calculating the real costs of each gallon of gas an ICE vehicle owner is paying. EV charging stations and EV sales is a chicken and egg scenario, the infrastructure will need to be out ahead of sales. The money you are squawking about is peanuts compared to the trillions going to the gas and oil industry and it's customers. We can not base the need for infrastructure tomorrow on sales today, the stakes in terms of national security are just too high to wait. Infrastructure has to come first, then sales, then bigger batteries once the economy of scale is achieved... it's a gamble well worth taking. bigger batteries will eventually come but we have to start with what we have!

My point with being able to drive hundreds of miles in a day using QC's wasn't to suggest that many people are doing it, it's more that it's quite doable and convenient with quick charging. All but continuous all day driving is doable in the Leaf with a decent QC network. We've got an ICE for that.

IT'S NOT FREE! You're charging on taxpayers dollars (unless you're at a private station but you didn't mention that). I'm glad you're enjoying it, but if it was so incredible, where's the sales that back up this train you speak of? 370 sales last month and 300 i-meEV :lol: Where's the current Leaf owners saying they'd pay actual costs once your "free" L3 is gone? They're few and far between.

Who are these people that drive hundreds of miles on a daily basis? I've seen one or two, where's the rest of the people on this train that drive hundreds of miles on a daily basis? How many will still do so when your charges aren't paid for by the government (again, that's not free)? I just ran the numbers in another post, and others have done so as well. Supporters posts seem to negate the numbers, and just assume that charging will stay free (or be low cost) without a substantial number of users.

Another perspective is definitely needed here, too many folks are buying CHAdeMO dealers B.S.