resurgence in small, cheap EVs?

[planet4ever]

I'm in my third year of operating an EV with 60 miles of range and using L1 charging. I've only charged 'out in the world' one time - and that was during the first few months of ownership when I was still exploring the limits. Later this summer I'll add my vote to the 'daily use while only using L1' score card.

Different case. If you expect 80-100 miles, I maintain L1 won't do it. As I said, we're going to find out...there are a lot of people on here trying to make it on L1...In a year or so, we'll find out whether they change their tune or not.

As blorg was explaining, it isn't whether you ever exceed 40-50 miles, but whether you average more than that. Do the math: 50 miles a day for 365 days is 18,250 miles a year. Most people don't drive their ICE that far in a year, and that includes a few long trips to see Grandma. I suspect that nearly all owners of this small, cheap EV we're talking about will be traveling less than than 1,000 miles a month in their econEV.

Ray

 

[ENIAC]

I wonder if somebody might built a little EV with small battery pack (maybe 30 to 40 miles range) and sell it for around $10,000.

The problem presently is the cost of the battery pack. 40 mile range pack would cost $5K to $6K. That doesn't leave a lot left for the rest of the car.

 

[DaveEV]

I wonder if somebody might built a little EV with small battery pack (maybe 30 to 40 miles range) and sell it for around $10,000.

The problem presently is the cost of the battery pack. 40 mile range pack would cost $5K to $6K. That doesn't leave a lot left for the rest of the car.

Which is why I suggested earlier that EV conversion kits would the most cost effective way to go...

 

[LindsayNB]

Just googling around to see what is being offered for $10k I found two Brammo electric motorcycles:
3.1kWh battery, 60+ max speed and 42 mile range (urban commuting) 20 mile range (high speed commuting) $8k price
6.0kWh battery, 60+ max speed and 80 mile range (urban commuting) 40 mile range (high speed commuting) $9k price
Assuming the battery is the only difference that would give $1k for 2.9 extra kWh so $345 per kWh.

I wonder what the possible configurations might look like as you moved from a motorcycle up to a regular car.

The Arcimoto Pulse is an interesting point on that spectrum at an est. $17.5k (40mile version), and it even looks like half car half motorcycle!
The tandem two seat configuration makes engineering sense in terms of reducing drag, I guess if it's quiet enough you can still have conversations with the passenger.
They are unveiling their production prototype on the 23rd, I'm curious to see what changes they've made.

 

[daniel]

Like Blorg, I drive a Zap Xebra, and have been driving it for about 4 years now. I have a LiFePO battery pack in it, which cost me $6,000 IIRC, but which is a LOT cheaper now. It uses a 120 v. 25 a. charger and I plug it into a 30 amp circuit. It charges much faster than I would need it to.

I plan on using L1 for my Leaf, and maybe getting a Leviton L2 charger later. What it really comes down to is that if you need to drive 100 miles every day, L1 is not adequate. But if (like me) you will drive 3 to 30 miles most days, and 50 miles once in a while, L1 charging is more than adequate, leaving a full charge in the car every morning. You can drive to empty on any day when you did not do so the day before.

I need to keep the Prius for road trips, so it's always available if once every 3 years I need to drive 80 miles two days in a row.

Part of the problem with EV adoption is that we are so spoiled that we want every adult in the family to have a car that is always capable at an instant's notice, of making an extended trip. We've forgotten when a family only owned one car and both adults had to make do and the kids walked to school. And hardly anybody remembers when most people didn't own a car.

An EV, even only a 40-mile EV, can replace one gas car in a family if people are willing to juggle cars according to each person's transportation needs for the day. Granted, the slow-speed Xebra presents additional problems in bigger cities where you are forced to use high-speed roads, but here in Spokane, I almost never have to drive the stinker except for road trips, when even a 300-mile EV would not work without an overnight at an L2 charger or a strategically-located and guaranteed available L3 charger.

But to get around to the thread topic, I suspect that the Leaf will kill the market for small EVs. I'll bet that most drivers of small EVs (Xebra, Zenn, Gem) are middle class people who've made a principled decision to drive electric, not people on a budget who need a cheap car. With the exception of people in seniors' communities who drive golf carts the half-dozen blocks around their community, I'll bet the Xebra & Zenn crowd will be buying Leafs or even Teslas, and later the other EVs that will follow from other companies.

 

[planet4ever]

Personally I would love to have a small, cheap EV, so long as small doesn't mean tiny, like a Think. Small like a Geo would be perfect for me. And, strangely enough, I'd rather have cheap. Navigation? I'll never use it. Bluetooth? My cell phone doesn't even support it. Power windows, power doors, power mirrors? Who needs them. Backup camera? My wife's Prius has it, and I never look at it. When I'm backing up I want to turn and watch directly where I'm going.

OK, time to eat crow.

Now that I have my LEAF, and ended up with the SL despite never wanting it, I've decided I like that backup camera. It's the "silly" curved lines that won me over, lines that aren't there in our Prius. It turns out I find those lines perfect for parallel parking! And today I tried something else -- backing into a perpendicular parking space. It was a snap, due to those lines!

Most of the other stuff you can keep, and I certainly won't claim those two lines are worth $1000. But I do like them.

Ray

 

[Anonymous]

Here's an interesting little fact between the Xebra and the Leaf. Obviously you shouldn't really compare these two vehicles since it's kind of like comparing a Hummer to a Scooter, but I think this is quite interesting.

My overall average for electric costs on my Xebra over the last 2 years averages out to $0.0501/mile
My Leaf, over the 2 month period that I've had it, has averaged $0.0347/mile

The Leaf is actually CHEAPER to operate!

Granted, there are a few things that come into play. First, the Xebra is running 7 Trojan Flooded Lead-Acid batteries, so we're talking very different chemistry. Second, that represents 1,451 miles on the Leaf in 2 months versus 2,508 miles over 2 years for the Xebra. But then the Leaf has always only been charged at home, where I have my meters, whereas the Xebra has been charged at many other places (my calculations are only MY energy costs, so don't include when I charge elsewhere).

Obviously the key is that the Leaf takes more frequent and longer trips, so you rack up a lot of miles per charge, while my Xebra spends most of its time plugged in, and most of the charging is in that last 20% which takes more energy anyway.

What I think will be interesting will be comparing the all-inclusive cost of the Leaf and Xebra at the end of my 3-year lease. The Xebra is expensive to maintain, it's like a boat that is a money drain, however insurance is only $65/year where I'm paying over $1100/year for the Leaf. I'm thinking the 3-year overall costs will be about the same, but considering the Leaf will have a LOT more miles over that time period it will make the Leaf much more of a bargain.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Ok. Here is a tidbit. My Leaf has averaged 2.96 cents per mile over 5300today miles. My Zenn averaged 1.72 cents per mile over 12,500+ miles.

My zenns range was so pathetic iwas forced to use the free 120 volt charging stations around and plug in at myemployer.

Now I estimated my home charging costs to be around 2.3 cpm if I were to only charge at home

Also my Leafs charging costs have been dropping slowly. Right. Ow myhouse is in transition so unable to determine charging cost since weather change but guessing it to be near 2.90 or so

So I guessmy Zenn is far more efficient than the Zebra

 

[SanDust]

OK, time to eat crow.

Now that I have my LEAF, and ended up with the SL despite never wanting it, I've decided I like that backup camera.

Backup cameras are great and the Leaf's is pretty good. In addition to the curvy lines, they're also useful when backing out of a place between two large vehicles. With the camera you can see what's coming before you pull out which just isn't possible otherwise.

 

[Anonymous]

So I guessmy Zenn is far more efficient than the Zebra

Well, I think HOW it is used is really the big factor. Since I use the Xebra for very short trips, less than 10 miles, I'm always only charging the top half of the battery and my charger does a float for a while after each charge. Occasionally, like over the winter, it sits for a month at a time and therefore the charger will cycle every 3 days or so. I'm sure if I was using it more often and for longer trips, the cost per mile would change pretty drastically.

 

[smkettner]

Consider the old Geo Metro, the super-cheap little economy car that was essentially a "throw it away after 60k miles and buy a new one" model. They were very popular.

Don't be coming down on the Geo Metro. I drove my vintage 1987 for 240,000 miles with very few troubles. Still ran great and burned virtually no oil when I sold it. Solid 50 mpg unless I drove it nice I could get 53-55 mpg.