Rebuttal to Forbe's article re: Mileage Fraud re: elc. vech

[Yodrak]

Good point, Dave. And recognize also that while humans may have the ability to manipulate their environment to a certain extent, for better or worse, that other species past and present do not have, the same types of naturally occurring events that wiped out most of the extinct species can just as quickly and easily happen again.

Sometimes I get curious as to whether or not our current global warming is actually beneficial, delaying or even averting the next 'ice age'. The world sure would get cramped if glaciation compressed habitable living space into the areas between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn.

The would achieves its VERY delicate balance and diversity over millions of years. Then, with human help, most of that can be wiped out in a few hundreds of years. Mankind, the virus, probably?

99.9 % of all species that have roamed the Earth are extinct. what makes you think we deserve or are destined to last more than a few dozen millennia?

 

[ERG4ALL]

In the interest of trying to determine if the glass is half full or half empty, I would be interested in knowing how many who have photovoltaic systems installed them because they are buying an electric vehicle that needs to be charged. Or, did they or would they have installed the photovoltaic system even if EVs were not yet on the horizon.

If the former, and the vehicle is charged when the sun is shining, then I can agree that the EV is being charged by the photovoltaics. Otherwise, whatever environmental (and economic) benefit was being obtained with the initial installation of the PV system is being taken away by the charging requirements of the EV.

In our case we would have put the PV system in anyway, but perhaps not as big. Up here in the high country one of the significant uses of energy is for heating. The main fuel supply for that is propane for about $2.69/gallon. With two ultra high efficient heat pumps we can get the same amount of BTUs for less than a dollar with the rate at $0.11/kWh. This morning the outside temperature was 4 degrees above zero and last night when we went to bed it was 9 degrees. The house was at 68 degrees. Obviously with the PV system tied to the grid our cost is only for the fixed costs that the utility charges ($27.05/month).

Unless I'm missing something I believe that there is a positive impact for the environment even if it is charged at night. I haven't heard of any peak periods being at night. Thus, the utility very much appreciates that we pump more energy into the grid than we use during the day and they supply us with power during their non-peak time. My understanding is that utilities can function most efficiently when their load is level and constant. What we are doing is helping them to achieve that. The power that we provide during the day when there is peak demand means the utility does not have to fire up fossil fuel supplemental generation sources as much as they would otherwise.

 

[mwalsh]

In the interest of trying to determine if the glass is half full or half empty, I would be interested in knowing how many who have photovoltaic systems installed them because they are buying an electric vehicle that needs to be charged. Or, did they or would they have installed the photovoltaic system even if EVs were not yet on the horizon.

I have thought on-and-off about getting a PV system for something like 20 years, but ordering the LEAF was the final nudge I needed to get off my duff and do it. And I did buy a substantially bigger system than I would have entertained had an EV not been coming.

 

[Yodrak]

I agree, this is a win-win situation. Shave the daytime peak loads with the PV, reducing operation of the least efficient generating units, keep up the load overnight so that the more efficient generating units run closer to their most efficient operating levels.

Unless I'm missing something I believe that there is a positive impact for the environment even if it is charged at night. I haven't heard of any peak periods being at night. Thus, the utility very much appreciates that we pump more energy into the grid than we use during the day and they supply us with power during their non-peak time. My understanding is that utilities can function most efficiently when their load is level and constant. What we are doing is helping them to achieve that. The power that we provide during the day when there is peak demand means the utility does not have to fire up fossil fuel supplemental generation sources as much as they would otherwise.

 

[Yodrak]

Good input from you and erg4all. I agree that PV and EV complement each other even if not dedicated to serving each other.

I would love to get a PV system for my south-facing back roof, but my electric rates are low enough that without a market for the SRECs it just doesn't pay.

In the interest of trying to determine if the glass is half full or half empty, I would be interested in knowing how many who have photovoltaic systems installed them because they are buying an electric vehicle that needs to be charged. Or, did they or would they have installed the photovoltaic system even if EVs were not yet on the horizon.

I have thought on-and-off about getting a PV system for something like 20 years, but ordering the LEAF was the final nudge I needed to get off my duff and do it. And I did buy a substantially bigger system than I would have entertained had an EV not been coming.

 

[TimeHorse]

I can 1-up the PV folks: I joined my HOA so that I could work the get the prohibition of PV in our community lifted because I'm buying a LEAF.

 

[cinmar]

We've also thought about PV for a while, and the bump to get it was the LEAF. We also took our future LEAF into account when sizing our system.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I would be interested to see the amount of us that will be charging our LEAFs with photovoltaics and wind generation or other non-polluting renewables.

With about a quarter of commercially produced electricity coming from nuclear as a base line you could argue that you're already part way there.

Forget the environment or a couple points on some contrived MPG equivalent scale, the case for electrification of transportation, whether it be autos or rail, is compelling from a diversification and energy security standpoint. Relying so much on oil is like having all your 401k in Enron or Worldcom. It's all fun and games till somebody loses an eyeball.

Rewind the conversation to 1974 and see if this guy's arguments get any traction.

 

[planet4ever]

I would be interested to see the amount of us that will be charging our LEAFs with photovoltaics and wind generation or other non-polluting renewables. Perhaps we could get some sort of tally site set up that each of us can enter the amount of renewable generation we have. Maybe this could be the amount of kWh per month or year that our systems are generating.

How about doing it this way:
I drive 600 to 7000 miles per year. Call it 6500.
The EPA figure for the LEAF (which I think is high) is 34 kWh/100 miles.
That predicts I will use 2.21 mWh/year to power my LEAF.
Averaging the 4 years I've had my solar panels running, I generate 11.5 mWh/year.
Thus I generate 520% of the power needed for my car.

 

[detlefo]

We have run a 3.25 KW system for about 4 years producing about 80% of our power needs. We expanded our system to 4.5 KW because we are getting a LEAF.

 

[SanDust]

I can 1-up the PV folks: I joined my HOA so that I could work the get the prohibition of PV in our community lifted because I'm buying a LEAF.

It appears that you may be able to short cut the process. It seems federal law already prohibits the HOA from prohibiting PV systems. You might start by getting a legal opinion from your HOA's attorney. http://www.jacksonwhitelaw.com/mini-blogs/arizona-hoa-law/hoas-and-solar-panels/

Not sure where you are but state statues sometimes also vitiate HOA restrictions on solar devices.

 

[DeaneG]

I put in a 3kW PV system solely because of the Leaf. Without it, my local electricity rates make driving an EV fairly silly.

 

[ERG4ALL]

Yodrak wrote:
I would love to get a PV system for my south-facing back roof, but my electric rates are low enough that without a market for the SRECs it just doesn't pay.

Two other factors to consider whether to get a PV system or not are: 1) for environmental reasons any excess power that you may produce during the day does not have to travel hundreds of miles to be consumed. It is consumed by your next door neighbor. If the neighbor had to have that electricity come from the utility, a significant amount of electricity would be consumed in line-loss. 2) when you get a PV system keep in mind that you now have an opportunity-cost revenue stream that adds value to your home. You can show how much less your electric bill is in relation to your neighbors. Most solar panels are guaranteed to perform somewhere around 80% at year 20 or 25. Thus, you can calculate the savings over time of the effect of the PV system. Then you can enter that into a Present Value analysis to show the savings in today's dollars. Then take a percentage of that to pass on to any prospective buyer of your home and you'll see that the payback, even if you move in the next few years, makes PV more affordable than you might think. Of course, the only fly in the ointment is the amount of utility and government subsidies to get this technology more widespread and thus lower the cost so subsidies in the future will not be necessary. However, it pays to keep abreast of the advancements in PV technology which will make it even more cost effective to go PV. I've read articles that some laboratory experiments have exceeded 90% efficiency. Others have indicated that a "Moore's Law" for PV is about 8% improvement every two years. Excuse me for rambling on, but if everyone were as passionate as us LEAFers the country would not have an energy crisis and the "payoffs" for going solar may be closer than you think. Having said that I'm sure that there are areas of the country where the amount of sunshine given the current technology/efficiency of solar panels, it may be wiser to wait a few years for the aforementioned to come out of the laboratory and hit the market.
One thing for sure is that the Middle Eastern sheiks are not dumb. They will control the price of their commodity so as to always have it be cheaper to use their product as opposed to those of us that choose to go solar for our transportation. (soapbox political statement).

 

[Boomer23]

In the interest of trying to determine if the glass is half full or half empty, I would be interested in knowing how many who have photovoltaic systems installed them because they are buying an electric vehicle that needs to be charged. Or, did they or would they have installed the photovoltaic system even if EVs were not yet on the horizon.

We put in our system four years ago with very little real thought about driving an EV. As we sized the system, we had a choice and went with a slightly larger system in case we might add air conditioning or an EV in the future. We sized it to replace 80% of our 2005 usage total. In the four years that we've had our system, we've made efficiency changes in our usage and we now use less than 80% of the power that we generate. We'll use less than 70% of the power in 2010 than we used in 2005. Before we went solar, I couldn't have told you what our electrical usage was or what we paid for it. Now I can discuss it at a cocktail party (If anybody will listen).

I'm expecting to have at least 2,000 kWh of excess power to fuel our LEAF, which should cover most or all of our local driving. In reality, the fact that we have the extra power available stimulated my interest in getting an EV. Otherwise I'd probably be shopping high mpg sporty cars like a Mini right now.

So, going solar got us to focus on our electrical usage, which led to us reducing that usage, which led to excess available power, which led to getting an EV.

 

[LEAFfan]

I can 1-up the PV folks: I joined my HOA so that I could work the get the prohibition of PV in our community lifted because I'm buying a LEAF.

It appears that you may be able to short cut the process. It seems federal law already prohibits the HOA from prohibiting PV systems. You might start by getting a legal opinion from your HOA's attorney. http://www.jacksonwhitelaw.com/mini-blogs/arizona-hoa-law/hoas-and-solar-panels/

Not sure where you are but state statues sometimes also vitiate HOA restrictions on solar devices.

There is no Federal Law dealing with HOAs as it is up to each State to pass laws at this time.

 

[hill]

I can 1-up the PV folks: I joined my HOA so that I could work the get the prohibition of PV in our community lifted because I'm buying a LEAF.

It appears that you may be able to short cut the process. It seems federal law already prohibits the HOA from prohibiting PV systems. You might start by getting a legal opinion from your HOA's attorney. http://www.jacksonwhitelaw.com/mini-blogs/arizona-hoa-law/hoas-and-solar-panels/

Not sure where you are but state statues sometimes also vitiate HOA restrictions on solar devices.

not sometimes . . . always.

 

[TimeHorse]

It appears that you may be able to short cut the process. It seems federal law already prohibits the HOA from prohibiting PV systems. You might start by getting a legal opinion from your HOA's attorney. http://www.jacksonwhitelaw.com/mini-blogs/arizona-hoa-law/hoas-and-solar-panels/

Not sure where you are but state statues sometimes also vitiate HOA restrictions on solar devices.

I'll look into the federal issue, and certainly it would be criminal to disallow them in AZ, NV or NM, but here in the cloudy Commonwealth, there's less impetus. There is a law in Virginia, though, but it's not retroactive. Meaning, no future HOAs can prevent PV, but any HOA preventing it before the law was passed may still be enforced. So I just have to convince 80 residents (75%) to agree to amend our charter. :roll:

 

[hill]

anyway, back to Forbes ... Forbes is not stupid. Forbes is a coduit for status quo big business. That agenda flies in the face of things environmental, or things that challenge the control of existing power/fuel requirements. Coal & Oil industries LOVE to tout the "you're just moving the dirty exhaust pipe from the car to the coal-fired electric generator" BS. Don't fret when this ignorant statement gets spread, because each time said, it gives a new oportunity to set the record straight:
1) dirty coal-fired generotors have to run anyway, 24-7, and EV's can make use of the recharge power at night, which would have otherwise gone to waste.
2) To make each gallon of fuel, 1/2 of the coal / oil fired electric power to create the gallon, had to come from dirty coal/oil ... especially when you factor in the trillion dollar expence of the millitary we need, just to assure we can keep our (over) 50% oil imports flowing ... so we can keep power flowing to the dirty coal mines.
But ... Forbes big-business sponsors (which include big oil) somehow forget to mention that fact ... which means, that fossil fuel burner cars, first have to burn up a lot of dirty coal fuel, to MAKE electricity, just so fuel can be refined to burn in cars ... a DOUBLE dirty cause of pollution. At least EV's don't pollute, after the dirty electricity is created. That little omission of the facts gives us a chance to educate the ignorant, who might not otherwise be able to think that logic through.
.

 

[Jimmydreams]

So, going solar got us to focus on our electrical usage, which led to us reducing that usage, which led to excess available power, which led to getting an EV.

I'm going to steal that line, if that's ok with youm, Boomer!! Nicely put.

 

[Boomer23]

So, going solar got us to focus on our electrical usage, which led to us reducing that usage, which led to excess available power, which led to getting an EV.

I'm going to steal that line, if that's ok with youm, Boomer!! Nicely put.

Fine with me, Jimmy. Just give me an author's credit. :lol: