Practical use of a quick charger

[goixiz]

Only the potential was there to minimize his needs to speed another ~$1000 installing an L2 at home

Hold it right there. I didn't say anything about L2 or L1. If you have a plug in your garage, maximize the usage of that plug and not the one your employer provides. The only reason one would skip plugging in at home at L1 (or L2) is to save some money by consuming the free juice your employer provides. There may not be strict rules that you should not hog the charger space, but if you were to sit there for only one hour a day instead of 4 hours, that means 3 more hours of free charger utilization for someone else.

This is not a question of my opinion or your opinion. I consider this as basic charging etiquette. It is like holding the door open when you see someone walking with stuff in their hands. There is no rule to enforce.

Just wondering if you bring your own ketchup to a fast food place or soda/pop/ drinks to a meal away from home. yes its off topic

 

[LeftieBiker]

That remark was not just unhelpful: it was also a very poor analogy. Try "I bet you don't drink more than six bottles of beer at someone else's party."

 

[johnrhansen]

I tend to agree that if you can charge at home, you should as much as possible.

 

[cwerdna]

If you get free charging at work, you could potentially skip charging at home entirely

Please don't do that. Please don't be a charger hog. Your employer is providing those facilities presumably not for you to save pennies on electricity, but to provide you the ability to commute without any range anxiety. So start with a full charge everyday from home and then top it off at work, so you start with a full charge from either ends. This way you can maximize the charger usage with multiple folks in your facility.

Your entitled to your opinion and maybe you have that issue where you are at. Most of the time that's not the case in most places. It's use not ab.use. Usually there are 2 spots available when I arrive and sometimes other spot is empty when I leave after 2-3hours of charge..

Yep. In some places there are utilization problems. At my work there aren't.

As has been pointed out, some employers consider free workplace charging to be a perk/benefit and recruiting tool. Although I don't work for Google, Google for: free ev charging google perk.

Only the potential was there to minimize his needs to speed another ~$1000 installing an L2 at home

Hold it right there. I didn't say anything about L2 or L1. If you have a plug in your garage, maximize the usage of that plug and not the one your employer provides. The only reason one would skip plugging in at home at L1 (or L2) is to save some money by consuming the free juice your employer provides. There may not be strict rules that you should not hog the charger space, but if you were to sit there for only one hour a day instead of 4 hours, that means 3 more hours of free charger utilization for someone else.

This is not a question of my opinion or your opinion. I consider this as basic charging etiquette. It is like holding the door open when you see someone walking with stuff in their hands. There is no rule to enforce.

Perhaps you'd sing a different tune if you were in my shoes. There are basically no EVSE utilization problems at my work and charging's free. We have a good self-governing system and etiquette that I already mentioned including folks who (as part of the etiquette) plug in cars waiting for a charge. We even have optional EV valets (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=379454#p379454" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

Sometimes I charge on the 120 volt outlets that got added semi-recently (intended for folks w/more modest charging needs, taking pressure off L2s) or defer my charging on L2 stations until 4:30 or 5 pm or later, when there are MANY open EV spots and nobody or virtually nobody charging anymore. I tend to arrive at work late and leave late. 90+% of the time, I intentionally leave the L2 spots and stations open for folks who arrive and leave earlier (helps those w/longer commutes and those w/only 3.3 kW OBCs).

Your electricity is way cheaper than PG&E. As I said, I'll calculate how much your usage would be if you were in PG&E-land w/E1 w/my baseline. And better yet, I could run numbers before and after EV, to show you how (likely) horrible the marginal increase would be.

I live in a house that I don't own, has no L2 EVSE and that I will need to move away from. My Leaf lease is only 2 years and the odds of me paying residual to buy it at the end are near 0. The cost of installing a "free" Aerovironment EVSE (http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/cec/eligibility_criteria" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, program now over) would've been $5K (http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8264&sid=34edc3f59d23df0cb3f0c3d339f68f71#p8264" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. No thanks.

Again, I don't own this house, don't need L2 charging at home nor do I see a reason to needlessly to make my electricity rates skyrocket (due to PG&E's ridiculous baselines, tiers and rate structure) when I get juice for free @ work and PLENTY of open J1772 handles later in the afternoon/near the end of the day. The EV valets I've observed are done charging all valeted plug-ins by late afternoon as well.

I suspect if you asked the folks who charge @ my work, the vast majority would agree w/my position, esp. if I ran electricity cost calculations showing before and after and from common sense after looking at the situation @ my work.

Amongst the self-service and EV valet stations (+ folks I see on our internal EV/PHEV list), there are PLENTY of PHEVs (Volt is the 2nd most popular plug-in at my work) that charge and numerous Tesla Model S and even 1 Roadster (previously, a different Roadster would charge). At my work, should all the PHEVs, Model S, Roadsters and everyone else who doesn't actually need the charge to make it home all refrain from charging at work?

 

[mkjayakumar]

Listen. I expressed my opinion in what I believe in my mind is a fair use of a shared resource. You go on and on about installing L2 and such. This is nothing to do about L2 or L1. If I were you, I would put a timer in my Leaf so that it is always charging at my lowest tier in my home (on some 110 plug), which I believe is at night and so is very convenient.

At this time you have more chargers than EVs and there is no resource contention. Which is great. But that will change at some point, and I hope your charging habits also change then.

Re Tesla: If I were to have a BEV with 200+ miles and my round-trip commute is only 50 miles, I don't see any reason why I should typically charge in office?. Alteast that is what I would do, if I can ever afford one. Typically a Model S I believe starts with a 90% charge with a 200 mile range (because Tesla recommends that you are always plugged in), and then you top off at office and get back home with 175 miles remaining - instead of 150 miles if you were not charging at office. What difference does it make? Except that the Tesla was sitting at the charger for the whole work-day, for really no benefit for the owner other than may be $2 worth of free electricity.

 

[mctom987]

Re Tesla: If I were to have a BEV with 200+ miles and my round-trip commute is only 50 miles, I don't see any reason why I should typically charge in office?. Alteast that is what I would do, if I can ever afford one. Typically a Model S I believe starts with a 90% charge with a 200 mile range (because Tesla recommends that you are always plugged in), and then you top off at office and get back home with 175 miles remaining - instead of 150 miles if you were not charging at office. What difference does it make? Except that the Tesla was sitting at the charger for the whole work-day, for really no benefit for the owner other than may be $2 worth of free electricity.

Divide by two, and that's pretty much my scenario with my Leaf. I don't need to recharge at work, and I'm not there every day. When I am charging at work, I move my car when it's reasonable.

I also get in early, so there's no resource contention when I arrive, but they always fill up an hour or so after. I usually move shortly after that. I only occupy maybe 3 hours a week of charging when the spots are full. Could those 3 hours be better used by someone else? Possibly, but hard to know. I do my best to minimize my impact for everyone else.

The whole point of charging at work is to maximize flexibility, not minimize your home electric costs.

 

[mkjayakumar]

The whole point of charging at work is to maximize flexibility, not minimize your home electric costs.

There you go.. you said it more eloquently..

 

[cwerdna]

Listen. I expressed my opinion in what I believe in my mind is a fair use of a shared resource. You go on and on about installing L2 and such. This is nothing to do about L2 or L1. If I were you, I would put a timer in my Leaf so that it is always charging at my lowest tier in my home (on some 110 plug), which I believe is at night and so is very convenient.

Yes, you expressed an opinion that isn't based upon the facts of my situation nor upon common sense if you were at my work w/similar working hours. The L2 was in reference to someone else's response here.

I guess you don't understand how tiers work and TOU plans work here. Look at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, page 2 and http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/saveenergymoney/plans/tou/index.page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The values for baseline usage, 101% to 130% of baseline, 131% to 200% of baseline, etc. represent tier 1, tier 2 thru 5.

If I ventured into tier 3, even though it's off-peak in the middle of the night in "summer", the marginal cost is 28.6 cents/kWh. It rises to 32.6 cents for tier 4 and above. Oh, and it screws me for the other two time bands: peak and partial peak (see page 4 for definitions). Look at those rates!

Judging by my typical current home usages, which include occasional Leaf charging @ home on weekends, I'm almost always within tier 1. If I look at Carwings numbers, taking into account approximate charging losses @ 120 volts, charging ONLY at home would push me into tier 3 virtually every month and possibly tier 4, some months. Seems pretty dumb to do that for no reason other than a few guys at MNL telling me I should.

Please post some of your summer and winter monthly kWh usages and costs w/your utility (including taxes and fees). I will only be able to calculate PG&E cost based upon the E-1 schedule (non-TOU based at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. You'll see what I mean by the baselines and tiers being horrific for many.

And per my post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=379033#p379033" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:
Per http://www.pge.com/baseline/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

Determining Baseline Quantities

Service territories are divided into climate zones that reflect energy consumption needs. Each zone, or "rate schedule," is allocated a daily quantity of kilowatthours (kwh) of electric power and therms of natural gas that can be billed at a lower, "baseline" rate.

The Public Utilities (PU) Code establishes baseline quantities for average residential gas and electricity use within each baseline territory. The PU code specifically requires that baseline quanties fall between 50 and 60 percent of average use for basic-electric customers in both the summer and winter and for all-electric and gas customer in the summer. The PU code also requires that baseline quantities fall between 60 to 70 percent of average use for all-electric and gas customers in the winter

So, in summer, an "average" customer would already be at the upper end of tier 3 or the boundary of tier 3 and 4.

My summer daily baseline allotment is only 11.0 kWh/day, so that's 330 kWh/month assuming 30 days/month.

At this time you have more chargers than EVs and there is no resource contention. Which is great.

Nope. I just did a count of EVs + PHEVs on our internal "voluntary" list for those who use the self-service EVSEs. There were 58 cars. Not all of them are driven to work everyday and not all of them charge everyday. Probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the drivers elect to use the EV valets.

Serving the 3 adjacent buildings, there are only 8 self-service J1772 handles. There are another 6 for EV valets only (our cards don't work on them).

There are I believe 2 J1772 handles in a totally separate area (different building) maybe a mile away. I don't ever use those or go there.

There are 7 120 volt outlets designated ok for PHEV/EV charging.

But that will change at some point, and I hope your charging habits also change then.

Maybe on the first point and how much it changes will depend on what the contention patterns look like. I of course will yield and leave spots open to people who actually need the charge to make it home.

As I said, when I use the L2s, I usually start late, when there plenty of open J1772 handles and EV spaces when virtually everyone else is done charging.

I've spoken to another Leaf driver who does charge at work and has a much shorter commute than me (mine's ~12 miles each way).

Re Tesla: If I were to have a BEV with 200+ miles and my round-trip commute is only 50 miles, I don't see any reason why I should typically charge in office.

FWIW, 6 vehicles on our voluntary list are Model S. I know some of them do charge at my work. Two are Signature Red color (per their info) which means they got the 85 kWh Signature editions (very early units). Another recent addition was a P85+, also 85 kWh. I don't know about the others. One of those Tesla Model S Signature owners lives only 7 miles from work. I don't know how often he charges at work, but I know he's done so.

Today, when I looked out the window at the EV valet area, I saw 3 Model S charging.

Just wondering if you bring your own ketchup to a fast food place or soda/pop/ drinks to a meal away from home. yes its off topic

Something more analogous to my situation: some companies (like mine) provide a free lunch, drinks (e.g. coffee, soda, juice, tea, bottled water, etc.), some snacks and fruit. Should we all bring our own lunches, snacks and drinks to work instead?

 

[mkjayakumar]

Something more analogous to my situation: some companies (like mine) provide a free lunch, drinks (e.g. coffee, soda, juice, tea, bottled water, etc.), some snacks and fruit. Should we all bring our own lunches, snacks and drinks to work instead?

No, the more apt analogy in this case is:

do you starve yourself for two days, so that you can gobble as much free food at your friend's/office party and skip food the next day ?

 

[SJEVer]

Back of the original question... I am very glad I got the QC capability. There is a CHAdeMO charger a few blocks from my home that is free. Free beats charging at home, especially with PG&E's 3rd tier, and it is a lot faster that plug-in at home. I pay attention to doing it when the battery is cool.

 

[cwerdna]

Something more analogous to my situation: some companies (like mine) provide a free lunch, drinks (e.g. coffee, soda, juice, tea, bottled water, etc.), some snacks and fruit. Should we all bring our own lunches, snacks and drinks to work instead?

No, the more apt analogy in this case is:

do you starve yourself for two days, so that you can gobble as much free food at your friend's/office party and skip food the next day ?

Nope, but that's not what I'm doing. If it's an office party, the company wouldn't care as we frequently have lots of leftover food after events. But, I wouldn't starve myself either. No fun feeling hungry or totally stuffing myself w/food.

Some more real world observations and experiences today: I arrived late for a meeting and plugged into 1 of our 120 volt outlets, which I ended up occupying all day to charge. In that area, the 120 volt outlet next to it was open.

At ~1 pm, I went down to the garage near my cube but not my car to help out folks. I unplugged a Model S that had been plugged in for over 3.75 hours but had finished charging (not sure when it finished but I dropped the owner a note about unplugging) and plugged in a waiting PiP. An FFE was also done charging but I couldn't plug anyone else in due to the lack of open EV spaces and lack of other waiting cars in that area.

At ~3:15 pm an email went out reporting there were 3 open spaces in the above area. At ~3:30 pm, I'd gone down to confirm that all 3 spaces and all 3 J1772 handles were open. The 4th space was occupied by the above Model S that I unplugged at ~1 pm. That guy tends to "camp out" in EV charging spots but it's ok, there are only 3 handles in that area anyway and they were all open.

At ~3:45 pm, per the Chargepoint app, I confirmed that 4/5 of our self-service stations each had at least 1 J1772 handle open (some are dual handle, some are single).

There's sometimes a Leafer who stays plugged in all day long after his car's done charging. He's VERY high up in management and been w/the company for ages. No problem though, as others can easily unplug his completed Leaf (since he takes a corner spot) and plug themselves in. I'm sure he'd move if requested.

In the afternoon, maybe 3 or 4 pm, from a quick look out the window, it was clear that at least 3/6 (if not all 6) EV valet J1772 handles were open, so they could've easily charged more cars. 1 parking spot was empty. 2 cars were definitely done charging due to their orientation and/or person getting in their car. Couldn't see the other 3.

I didn't end up leaving work today until 8 pm.

Oh yes, although I didn't take a survey of all our spots nor monitor them, I saw another Model S charging on the self-service stations and 1 being charged by the EV valets.

From my Carwings usage reports, taking into account 75% charging efficiency @ 120 volts, PG&E's byzantine rate structure and how much it'd screw me if I charged only at home, my typical $25-$40/mo electricity bill I estimate would skyrocket by an extra $60 to $150/month, depending on the month by adding usage of ~300 to 400 kWh, all for no good reason.

You would have a VERY tough time convincing many of the EV/PHEV drivers who charge at my work to do what you want me to.

I tend to agree that if you can charge at home, you should as much as possible.

Your electricity is WAY cheaper than mine. (I've lived in the PNW for over 9 years, including at one time being under Seattle City Light.)

 

[pluginmax]

Guys,
Thanks for the help with the original question, and tips on workplace charging etiquette. When I was posting the question, I was considering a discounted 2014 SV, and had a choice of with and without QC. Things have changed now, as there are no 2014s left in my market (SF Bay Area). I plan to get a 2015 S in a few weeks and getting the QC option is a no-brainer with the S.

 

[MisterC]

Not sure if it's way out of the way, but SF Nissan, has about half a dozen 2014-SV's still. I'm pretty sure they're willing to give you a deal to get rid of last year's model, even though it's only been out for 7 months. And since our climate is cool, I'm not overly concerned about getting a lizard battery.

On a side note: I was at SF Nissan at the end of June, trying to get a deal on a 2014, since the new models were coming out, but they didn't even know as much as I did. Based on information from this forum, I told them that some dealers already had them and that they were right around the corner. But they weren't willing to go as low as i wanted on my lease, so I went down to Burlingame who was unloading their 2014's like they were on fire, and got my price with no haggling. Now SF still has a handful of 2014's, and Burlingame has been selling their 2015's for 3 weeks. Maybe more salespeople need to log on here to find out what the markets are doing.

Good luck!

 

[cwerdna]

To add another data point to my workplace charging:
This morning, when I arrived late, I didn't look at all the EV charging spots, but there was 1 L2 spot open near my cubicle in the garage. I left it open, parked in a non-charging spot and let everyone else charge.

At almost 4 pm, I went down to plug my car in. Of the 4 EV L2 spaces near my cubicle, 2 were vacant and the other 2 vehicles in the spots had completed charging awhile ago. I believe per the Chargepoint app, every employee station had at least 1 free J1772 handle. I plugged myself into L2 and charged to almost full when I left at ~8 pm. When I left, in my area, my Leaf was the only car.