Official Tesla Model S thread

[RegGuheert]

Hello Tesla owners, this is a great forum for EV owners. I initially joined the forum for some help with my EV purchase. I had decided on Leaf, but after consultation with Leaf owners in cold climate have come to a conclusion, it may not suit my needs. I may need an EV with Thermal Management System (TMS) or with bigger range. Please see my previous posts.

Sorry for the OT, but if you want an EV with TMS and a decent range in the cold, it seems like the Ford Focus Electric fits the bill for fewer bills. There is an owner in northern NJ who has both a LEAF and an FFE and has reported impressive wintertime range on the FFE. It might be a more socially acceptable choice in Detroit, as well!

 

[aphysician]

@ Scott

Thank you for forwarding those links. Winter test was good, atleast it shows you can drive on the show, though had lots of edit. I will sure look around in other forums for answers.

 

[aphysician]

@ RegGuheert

Thank you for your reply. I signed up for that forum, and read his post, pretty impressive. I will sure contact him to know more. Ford Focus EV is an option, but it is still not purpose built EV, with virtually no trunk space, so would be hard to replace my current hatchback. Actually I kind of work at Ford, related Henry Ford Hospital, so can get even good discounts. Domestics are big in Detroit for obvious reasons, and I see many Volt with only rare Leaf. It seems "Big 3" finally seem convinced with the technology, atleast GM and Ford. I would buy if they make quality products, certainly the case with Volt. GM seems ahead than Ford, Ford really disappointed with CMax Energi.

 

[edatoakrun]

Funny financial math from Tesla:

Moving to correct a few, uh, mistakes in the Tesla Financing plan, Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk announced on Friday some refinements to the Tesla Model S financing program. The changes are in reaction to criticism for the financing program announced a month ago, such as the analysis by our own John Goreham. The changes include an increase in the resale value guarantee, a lengthening of the overall term, and some tweaks to the calculator on the Tesla Motors website.

...Several changes were made under the new financing program, and Musk promised to change (improve) the program in the future. Since it went into effect perhaps 20% of Model S purchasers have chosen the financing program, and over the long term Musk believes that may increase to 60-70%.

The resale value guarantee has been increased from 43% to 50% making it the highest of any premium sedan brand made in volume. This resale value guarantee says that after 3 years, a Tesla Model S owner will be able to sell the car back to Tesla for a guaranteed price. They are not required to do so, they simply have the right to do so. The idea is to give peace of mind to the customer, and to underscore the guarantee, Elon Musk is personally backing the program with his personal fortune.

The increased resale value guarantee applies retroactively to all purchasers since the program began, a month ago. "If we believe we're making the best car, we believe it should have the best resale value," said Elon Musk...

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/tesla-tweaks-model-s-financing-giving-higher-resale-value-and-lower-payments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you assume that ~50,000 Tesla S's are sold with the resale value guarantee in the next three years, and if their residual value averages $5,000 (about the difference between the previous 43% and current 50% residual level) lower than the guaranteed repurchase prices, this represents a $250,000,000 increase in the previous unfunded liability, apparently guaranteed not by Tesla, but only by Elon Musk's personal assets.

At the same level of sales, if the residual value of each of these S's averages out $20,000 lower than the 50% guarantee, which, IMO, is probably close to the worst case scenario, this unfunded liability increases to a cool one billion dollars...

 

[Zythryn]

Yep, one heck of a guarantee. Elon is really putting it on the line.
Of course, your numbers are way off, as the risk will be spread out over time. In three years, he will be guaranteeing the resale of, at most, 10,000 cars as I am guessing that is the maximum number of people that will be financing through Tesla (more likely half that).

I am very happy they corrected the funny math of the $500/month number. While they still offer the numbers, they no longer have the 'value of time' and 'business use tax breaks' as the default. If you want to consider those you can enter them in their calculator, but they are off by default.

I hope more people will consider cost of use when looking at EVs. Especially the Leaf which is wonderfully efficient.

 

[scottf200]

Pretty interesting move that the new 4.5 firmware changed to percentage charging...
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/16284-Waiting-for-4-5-firmware/page6?p=332255&viewfull=1#post332255" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Charge Limit
Many customers have asked for the ability to adjust the Model S charge level based on individual anticipated driving needs. To provide this flexibility, charge level options, Standard and Max Range, have been replaced with a slider that allows you to specify the charge limit by percentage.
* To adjust the charge limit, tap the "Set Charge Limit" button and slide to the desired value.
* You can select form 30% to 100% charge.
* The new setting will apply for scheduled and immediate charging instructions.

 

[DaveEV]

Pretty interesting move that the new 4.5 firmware changed to percentage charging...
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/16284-Waiting-for-4-5-firmware/page6?p=332255&viewfull=1#post332255" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Charge Limit
Many customers have asked for the ability to adjust the Model S charge level based on individual anticipated driving needs. To provide this flexibility, charge level options, Standard and Max Range, have been replaced with a slider that allows you to specify the charge limit by percentage.
* To adjust the charge limit, tap the "Set Charge Limit" button and slide to the desired value.
* You can select form 30% to 100% charge.
* The new setting will apply for scheduled and immediate charging instructions.

Pretty awesome right there. That's one setting that many LEAF owners have been asking for for two years and the savvy owner will use it to maximize battery life.

Interesting that they allow the user to default to a range-charge (100%) - I wonder if that changes back to a regular charge after each charge?

 

[ebill3]

Pretty awesome right there. That's one setting that many LEAF owners have been asking for for two years and the savvy owner will use it to maximize battery life.

Happy to see it for the Tesla, and it would really be nice in the LEAF. I think it would be of greater value in the LEAF than in the Tesla. As I seem to recall, Phil's Leafscan will fill that need.

 

[TomT]

I hope I still have a Leaf when that comes to pass... :lol:

As I seem to recall, Phil's Leafscan will fill that need.

 

[ebill3]

I hope I still have a Leaf when that comes to pass... :lol:

As I seem to recall, Phil's Leafscan will fill that need.

Amen, brother.

 

[ebill3]

OK, all you wealthy freeloaders, watch this and feel real bad. Then you will 'feel good'.

http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/tuesday-at-5-high-tech-freeloaders/v2LQJ/

 

[mitch672]

OK, all you wealthy freeloaders, watch this and feel real bad. Then you will 'feel good'.

http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/tuesday-at-5-high-tech-freeloaders/v2LQJ/

Yes the government absolutely should be subsidizing "cars for rich people", us "rich people" will eventually allow "you poor people" to drive in a lower cost electic car you can afford because we are supporting the manufacturers to allow this further "cost cycle reduction" to happen, even "lowly" Nissan Leaf drivers get the same $7,500 "tax break" as us Ritchie Rich Tesla drivers. The whole thing is ridiculous... I suppose instead of "giving a tax break" to encourage people to drive EVs and get off oil, we should just spend more money on the military and protecting our overseas oil interests. No soldier has ever died fighting to protect our electricity, the same can't be said of oil/gasoline. Who owns thats communist anti-American station, let me guess, it's a Rupert Murderer FOX affiliate no doubt.

 

[Elephanthead]

I want to pickup some free cheese in my tesla! I could only afford a leaf. I still want free cheese back.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

OK, all you wealthy freeloaders, watch this and feel real bad. Then you will 'feel good'.

http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/tuesday-at-5-high-tech-freeloaders/v2LQJ/

just like the news to "glorify" the villain. what they fail to mention is that the "gift" only works out to be a pretty small percentage of the purchase price of a 100,000 Tesla with sales tax credit (we will use 9% when the real tax rate is higher in most areas, lower in a few) that is $9000 plus $7500 so the "20,000" is actually more like $16,500 so it covers 16.5% of the cost of the car and provides an IMMENSE benefit to the state.

But ANY electric vehicle qualifies so lets look at the "poor man's choice" of a LEAF for say $32,000 now the tax credit on it would be 2880 plus $7500 fed tax credit totaling $10,380 or more than a third of the car.

at 21,300 for a base model S, that would be the equivalent of buying any other $19,000 car after the tax consideration so this
"wealthy" perk is not just for the wealthy, its open to anyone who cares about WA's financial, environmental and ecological health

 

[GRA]

OK, all you wealthy freeloaders, watch this and feel real bad. Then you will 'feel good'.

http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/tuesday-at-5-high-tech-freeloaders/v2LQJ/

just like the news to "glorify" the villain. what they fail to mention is that the "gift" only works out to be a pretty small percentage of the purchase price of a 100,000 Tesla with sales tax credit (we will use 9% when the real tax rate is higher in most areas, lower in a few) that is $9000 plus $7500 so the "20,000" is actually more like $16,500 so it covers 16.5% of the cost of the car and provides an IMMENSE benefit to the state.

But ANY electric vehicle qualifies so lets look at the "poor man's choice" of a LEAF for say $32,000 now the tax credit on it would be 2880 plus $7500 fed tax credit totaling $10,380 or more than a third of the car.

at 21,300 for a base model S, that would be the equivalent of buying any other $19,000 car after the tax consideration so this
"wealthy" perk is not just for the wealthy, its open to anyone who cares about WA's financial, environmental and ecological health

I find it impossible to justify the need to give government assistance to anyone who can afford to blow $70k or more on a car. If I were emperor I'd limit the credit to any BEV with a sales price (not counting gov. fees) of $40k or less; every dollar over that would reduce the credit by the same amount, until you got to zero at $47,500. Every year or two the credit threshold would ratchet down by say $500 or $1,000, until the need for the credit disappeared.

 

[Zythryn]

I find it impossible to justify the need to give government assistance to anyone who can afford to blow $70k or more on a car. If I were emperor I'd limit the credit to any BEV with a sales price (not counting gov. fees) of $40k or less; every dollar over that would reduce the credit by the same amount, until you got to zero at $47,500. Every year or two the credit threshold would ratchet down by say $500 or $1,000, until the need for the credit disappeared.

I would not. Innovative products are often very expensive to start with.
Many people that are buying a Model S, or the Roadster before that could only make it work with the tax credit.
And technically, the government is not spending a dime as this is a tax credit. True, they are not bringing in as much money. What they are doing is giving everyone a way to reduce their taxes.
If you want to go there, you may as well take a look at all other tax deductions. May as well limit those as well.
Before doing that, take the low hanging fruit. Don't limit the SS tax to $105,000(?).

Expanding the EV market is a good thing. And considering that the amount not brought in due to the tax credit is much less than the oil subsidies, I say target the oil subsidies until they are equal to the EV subsidies.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I think Tesla's economic model is proving quite successful, starting with the Roadster and working their way down in price and up in economy of scale. lets face it, gas cars and the fuel to drive them are costing everyone a pretty penny. tax incentives for EV's, whether they be very expensive of just expensive (all of them fall into one of those two categories) help cushion the early adapter from the huge risk of loss they are undertaking which pushes sales closer to the critical threshold of mass production of a more economical version. Also, don't assume everyone driving a Tesla has a lot of money, many are of more modest means, some are making substantial sacrifice to support this desperately needed shift away from the oil/war/torture/climate guzzling ICE.

the return to the taxpayer will be many fold!

OK, all you wealthy freeloaders, watch this and feel real bad. Then you will 'feel good'.

http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/tuesday-at-5-high-tech-freeloaders/v2LQJ/

just like the news to "glorify" the villain. what they fail to mention is that the "gift" only works out to be a pretty small percentage of the purchase price of a 100,000 Tesla with sales tax credit (we will use 9% when the real tax rate is higher in most areas, lower in a few) that is $9000 plus $7500 so the "20,000" is actually more like $16,500 so it covers 16.5% of the cost of the car and provides an IMMENSE benefit to the state.

But ANY electric vehicle qualifies so lets look at the "poor man's choice" of a LEAF for say $32,000 now the tax credit on it would be 2880 plus $7500 fed tax credit totaling $10,380 or more than a third of the car.

at 21,300 for a base model S, that would be the equivalent of buying any other $19,000 car after the tax consideration so this
"wealthy" perk is not just for the wealthy, its open to anyone who cares about WA's financial, environmental and ecological health

I find it impossible to justify the need to give government assistance to anyone who can afford to blow $70k or more on a car. If I were emperor I'd limit the credit to any BEV with a sales price (not counting gov. fees) of $40k or less; every dollar over that would reduce the credit by the same amount, until you got to zero at $47,500. Every year or two the credit threshold would ratchet down by say $500 or $1,000, until the need for the credit disappeared.

 

[GeekEV]

Someone needs to change the thread title to "the politics of ev incentives"... Can we get back on track please? Politics bore me! :lol:

 

[ebill3]

Well, I am going to let KIRO TV know that I am outraged.

I think it is a crying shame that I bought the LEAF in September of 2011 and was not able to get my $7,500 tax credit until late January the next year. Even worse, I bought the Tesla in February of this year, so that means I have to wait almost a full year to get my second $7,500 credit. It just isn't fair that I have to wait so long.

(Gee, I hope folks can see the big bulge in my cheek made by my tongue )

 

[GRA]

I think Tesla's economic model is proving quite successful, starting with the Roadster and working their way down in price and up in economy of scale. lets face it, gas cars and the fuel to drive them are costing everyone a pretty penny. tax incentives for EV's, whether they be very expensive of just expensive (all of them fall into one of those two categories) help cushion the early adapter from the huge risk of loss they are undertaking which pushes sales closer to the critical threshold of mass production of a more economical version. Also, don't assume everyone driving a Tesla has a lot of money, many are of more modest means, some are making substantial sacrifice to support this desperately needed shift away from the oil/war/torture/climate guzzling ICE.

the return to the taxpayer will be many fold!

Sorry, George, no one who can afford to buy a Tesla is making a 'substantial sacrifice'. Are any of these people, yourself included, worried about keeping a roof over your head or where your next meal is coming from? Going to be working a third job to buy clothes for your kids, or is your wife making them out of old flour sacks? Thinking of selling an organ? Come on!

People who lived through the Depression often had to make substantial sacrifices _to live_. Deciding to blow $70k on _a car_ is a decision that only quite fortunate people can make. Yes, it helps the technology advance, and yes, some people may have to cut back on some other things to do it. But it's not as if there aren't enough people in Silicon Valley alone who could afford to take up Tesla's entire production and then some and hardly notice the cost. If someone wants to spend their 401k on a Tesla, fine, but let's not call it a 'sacrifice', okay? It's a freely made choice.