Official BMW i3 thread

[surfingslovak]

Ofcourse not sure what they have to do here in WA to get the sales tax exemption.

Doesn't WA regulation orient itself on CARB?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Ofcourse not sure what they have to do here in WA to get the sales tax exemption.

Doesn't WA regulation orient itself on CARB?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"States adopting the California standards include Arizona (2012 model year), Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia. Such states are frequently referred to as "CARB states" in automotive discussions because the regulations are defined by the California Air Resources Board."

"The EPA has adopted the California emissions standards as a national standard by the 2016 model year and is collaborating with California regulators on stricter national emissions standards for model years 2017–2025."

 

[surfingslovak]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ah, thanks! Both WA and NJ are on the list

 

[TomMoloughney]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ah, thanks! Both WA and NJ are on the list

Sure, but in most of the other 'CARB' states HOV access is irreverent whereas in California it is paramount for commuters. I couldn't care less in I have HOV access in NJ, I don't even know where there are HOV lanes. I don't want the REx neutered for everyone just so the Californians can have HOV access. It wouldn't surprise me if they did it though because the Californian market is THAT important for plug-in sales.

 

[surfingslovak]

Are the specifics of the new CARB rule known? I mean beyond couple of the references upthread. I've heard Gary on the other forum inquire about the sales tax waiver in WA. I believe this perk is only available to BEVs, and if WA did follow CARB rules, then the i3 with REx would qualify. That might be a worthwhile benefit. I'm not using HOV lanes much, and after the DMV lost my application due to the 1981 model year snafu, I did not re-apply. As someone who managed to get stranded a few times at inopportune moments, I'm very motivated to get the REx option. I wouldn't use it for anything extreme, since it sounds like we would need another EV for longer trips. My only gripe would be the reduced EV range. I don't think that I would want the REx to kick in at 20% SOC on every trip...

 

[evnow]

Emission check rules use CARB. Butsales tax exemption is a totally separate legislation - which currently talks only about BEV, IIRC. So, not sure how BEV-x rules might affect what WA does. I guess BMW would have to lobby with the legislature to add BEV-x to the current legislation.

 

[TomMoloughney]

Are the specifics of the new CARB rule known? I mean beyond couple of the references upthread. I've heard Gary on the other forum inquire about the sales tax waiver in WA. I believe this perk is only available to BEVs, and if WA did follow CARB rules, then the i3 with REx would qualify. That might be a worthwhile benefit. I'm not using HOV lanes much, and after the DMV lost my application due to the 1981 model year snafu, I did not re-apply. As someone who managed to get stranded a few times at inopportune moments, I'm very motivated to get the REx option. I wouldn't use it for anything extreme, since it sounds like we would need another EV for longer trips. My only gripe would be the reduced EV range. I don't think that I would want the REx to kick in at 20% SOC on every trip...

At the LA Auto show private event for ActiveE lessees Jacob Harb (BMW NA electric vehicle sales manager) said the electric range for the REx i3 would be the same as it is for the BEV i3. I made note of that although I remember wondering if he understood really the question because he was getting peppered with questions from different people seemingly all at once and he was kind of rushing his answers. I was going to approach him later when he was free and make sure he understood what was asked but then I started talking to Oliver Walter and forgot. Yeah, if the REx comes on at 20% SOC that's probably enough to make me decide against the REx. That and the $3,000 sales tax I'll have to pay since only zero emission vehicles are sales tax exempt in NJ.

 

[edatoakrun]

Are the specifics of the new CARB rule known? ...I don't think that I would want the REx to kick in at 20% SOC on every trip...

Then you may be disappointed depending on the definition of the charge-sustaining lower limit :

From the discussion on this topic a year ago:


The “range–extended” EV considered
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847&hilit=power+trailer&start=170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On Friday 27 January, the California Air Resources Board (ARB) adopted the new Advanced Clean Cars (ACC) package that sets out the regulatory emissions and technology requirements for light-duty automobiles through model year 2025. (Earlier post.) The Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) regulation—one of the three main regulatory packages that constitute ACC—introduces a new regulatory vehicle category: the BEVx, or a battery-electric vehicle with a small “limp-home” range extending engine or APU (auxiliary power unit)—i.e., not a series-hybrid type vehicle such as the Chevrolet Volt equipped with a full-capability engine...

Basic criteria for these vehicle include:

1. the APU range is equal to or less than the all-electric range;

2. engine operation cannot occur until the battery charge has been depleted to the charge-sustaining lower limit;

3.a minimum 80 miles electric range; and

4.super ultra low emission vehicle (SULEV) and zero evaporative emissions compliant and TZEV warranty requirements on the
battery system...

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/01" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 20129.html

Another report in Torque News yesterday:

...The solution developed by BMW is a small two-cylinder motorcycle engine from BMW's motorcycle division. That engine is coupled with a generator, not in any way mechanically connected to the wheels, and is used solely to recharge the battery pack if needed. The engine is housed in the trunk area and presumably consumes some storage space.

The added cost of the range extender engine will not be known until the global launch of the BMW i3, that is expected to occur during Q4 2013. BMW began a world tour of the i3 and i8 in May 2012. BMW launched phase two of the company's electric vehicle field trials, with the ActiveE program that began a year ago. Phase one was the Mini-E trials begun in June 2009.

The point of the range extender for the BMW i3 is not to deliver the same performance level in range extension mode, but to provide a sort of "limp home" mode. The i3's electric drive train delivers 125 kW/170 hp, and a peak torque of 250 Nm (184 lb-ft), but not while running in range extender mode.

The i3 will also have SAE DC Fast Charge support that will give an 80 percent recharge in about 30 minutes. One wonders why, for a car with fast charge support, there is interest in adding a gasoline engine. This is the length to which BMW seeks to comfort range anxiety concerns.

This version of the BMW i3 is unique among plug-in hybrid vehicles. So unique that California has created a special category, called BEVx, for which the BMW i3 is expected (at this time) to be the only qualifying vehicle. Additionally this version of the BMW i3 will qualify for the white HOV stickers in California, because this car has its own category. This BEVx category was approved in January 2012 by the California Air Resources Board (CARB). To qualify as a BEVx, the vehicle must have at least 80 mile electric range, and the whole result must be super ultra low emission vehicle (SULEV) and zero evaporative emissions compliant and TZEV warranty requirements on the battery system.

Some automakers proposed to CARB the concept of an all electric vehicle with a small auxiliary power unit (APU). BMW is simply the first one to deliver on the idea...

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/bmws-i3-electric-car-have-motorcycle-engine-range-extender-250-mile-range" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomMoloughney]

Are the specifics of the new CARB rule known? ...I don't think that I would want the REx to kick in at 20% SOC on every trip...

Then you may be disappointed depending on the definition of the charge-sustaining lower limit :

From the discussion on this topic a year ago:


The “range–extended” EV considered
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847&hilit=power+trailer&start=170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On Friday 27 January, the California Air Resources Board (ARB) adopted the new Advanced Clean Cars (ACC) package that sets out the regulatory emissions and technology requirements for light-duty automobiles through model year 2025. (Earlier post.) The Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) regulation—one of the three main regulatory packages that constitute ACC—introduces a new regulatory vehicle category: the BEVx, or a battery-electric vehicle with a small “limp-home” range extending engine or APU (auxiliary power unit)—i.e., not a series-hybrid type vehicle such as the Chevrolet Volt equipped with a full-capability engine...

Basic criteria for these vehicle include:

1. the APU range is equal to or less than the all-electric range;

2. engine operation cannot occur until the battery charge has been depleted to the charge-sustaining lower limit;

3.a minimum 80 miles electric range; and

4.super ultra low emission vehicle (SULEV) and zero evaporative emissions compliant and TZEV warranty requirements on the
battery system...

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/01" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 20129.html

Another report in Torque News yesterday:

...The solution developed by BMW is a small two-cylinder motorcycle engine from BMW's motorcycle division. That engine is coupled with a generator, not in any way mechanically connected to the wheels, and is used solely to recharge the battery pack if needed. The engine is housed in the trunk area and presumably consumes some storage space.

The added cost of the range extender engine will not be known until the global launch of the BMW i3, that is expected to occur during Q4 2013. BMW began a world tour of the i3 and i8 in May 2012. BMW launched phase two of the company's electric vehicle field trials, with the ActiveE program that began a year ago. Phase one was the Mini-E trials begun in June 2009.

The point of the range extender for the BMW i3 is not to deliver the same performance level in range extension mode, but to provide a sort of "limp home" mode. The i3's electric drive train delivers 125 kW/170 hp, and a peak torque of 250 Nm (184 lb-ft), but not while running in range extender mode.

The i3 will also have SAE DC Fast Charge support that will give an 80 percent recharge in about 30 minutes. One wonders why, for a car with fast charge support, there is interest in adding a gasoline engine. This is the length to which BMW seeks to comfort range anxiety concerns.

This version of the BMW i3 is unique among plug-in hybrid vehicles. So unique that California has created a special category, called BEVx, for which the BMW i3 is expected (at this time) to be the only qualifying vehicle. Additionally this version of the BMW i3 will qualify for the white HOV stickers in California, because this car has its own category. This BEVx category was approved in January 2012 by the California Air Resources Board (CARB). To qualify as a BEVx, the vehicle must have at least 80 mile electric range, and the whole result must be super ultra low emission vehicle (SULEV) and zero evaporative emissions compliant and TZEV warranty requirements on the battery system.

Some automakers proposed to CARB the concept of an all electric vehicle with a small auxiliary power unit (APU). BMW is simply the first one to deliver on the idea...

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/bmws-i3-electric-car-have-motorcycle-engine-range-extender-250-mile-range" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Again, it's all just speculation at this point. If the REx does indeed extend the range an additional 160 miles as the article in the Automotive News claims that Diess said it would, then that alone would disqualify it from the new CARB rules so why would BMW bother to make it conform to the other restrictive rules if it won't qualify anyway? And why would they make a limp-mode that would take the car 160 miles? Who 'limps' for more then 5 or 10 miles at most? Can you imaging limping along at 30mph for 100 miles??!!

We're going to be tossing this thing back and forth for a few months until BMW actually give us all the specs.

 

[evnow]

Again, it's all just speculation at this point. If the REx does indeed extend the range an additional 160 miles as the article in the Automotive News claims that Diess said it would, then that alone would disqualify it from the new CARB rules so why would BMW bother to make it conform to the other restrictive rules if it won't qualify anyway? And why would they make a limp-mode that would take the car 160 miles? Who 'limps' for more then 5 or 10 miles at most? Can you imaging limping along at 30mph for 100 miles??!!

We're going to be tossing this thing back and forth for a few months until BMW actually give us all the specs.

Apparently if you can't go over the passes @ 70 mph, it is called limp ;-)

BTW, CA also gives HOV stickers for PHEV, REx can always get that. No need to make it comply with BEVx - and cripple it's abilities. They should change BEVx to be more practical.

 

[surfingslovak]

Apparently if you can't go over the passes @ 70 mph, it is called limp ;-)

A lot will depend on the implementation details. Should the i3 use the battery to augment the REx during power demand spikes, you could do that too. Except that you wouldn't want to climb over the Rocky Mountains. It's a bit pointless to discuss that now, given what we know. My takeaway is that the i3 should have enough power in range-extended mode to cover typical urban situations (and beyond).

BTW, CA also gives HOV stickers for PHEV, REx can always get that. No need to make it comply with BEVx - and cripple it's abilities. They should change BEVx to be more practical.

Indeed. I would like see continued emphasis on EV mode, and a sensible approach to REx. Without any planetary gears, if possible ;-)

 

[TomMoloughney]

BTW, CA also gives HOV stickers for PHEV, REx can always get that. No need to make it comply with BEVx - and cripple it's abilities. They should change BEVx to be more practical.

That program will end when the allotted 40,000 green stickers are all handed out which will likely happen by the end of this year.

From what most are saying CARB will not grant HOV access for PHEV's unless they meet the new, strict rules. Pure EV's will still get the white stickers of course. Actually none of the current PHEV's will qualify. The thought was that BMW would make the i3 REx conform to these new rules and therefore be the only PHEV with carpool access. Here's the original article: http://www.thestreet.com/story/11766466/1/bmw-cuts-off-toyota-gm-and-ford-in-california.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evnow]

That program will end when the allotted 40,000 green stickers are all handed out which will likely happen by the end of this year.

This year - not that likely (30 k this year alone ?)

From ABG,

Nonetheless, the California Air Resources Board's John Swanton tells the Merc that he expects the green stickers to sell out over the next two years.

 

[TomMoloughney]

That program will end when the allotted 40,000 green stickers are all handed out which will likely happen by the end of this year.

This year - not that likely (30 k this year alone ?)

From ABG,

Nonetheless, the California Air Resources Board's John Swanton tells the Merc that he expects the green stickers to sell out over the next two years.

It really doesn't matter if they run out in the end of 2013 or 2014. If BMW is going to custom tailor the REx option so that it satisfies the new BEV-X designation, then they are really handicapping it in my opinion and I probably won't consider getting the option. I don't know if that's the case, but I do know they, as the other OEM's realize how important the California market is for their plug-ins.

 

[edatoakrun]

...If BMW is going to custom tailor the REx option so that it satisfies the new BEV-X designation, then they are really handicapping it in my opinion and I probably won't consider getting the option. I don't know if that's the case, but I do know they, as the other OEM's realize how important the California market is for their plug-ins.

I think BMW's decision will also be indicative of whether its intent is to build the best "BEVx" they can, and sell them in large numbers, or to merely build them in small numbers for CARB compliance.

I doubt I will seriously consider the I3 in any case.

From the information released so far (and besides the likely very high sticker price) it simply does not sound like it will come very close to meeting my own requirements for a "range extended" BEV, which I posted previously here:

...In fact, a true ICE ”range extender” for a BEV is not a bad Idea, It's just that current designs are all abysmal failures, from the point of energy efficiency and driver utility. Putting an ICE drivetrain in an EV, whether in series, parallel, or any other hybrid configuration, is not advisable, IMO. Invariably, you will get an overweight, overpriced, underperforming vehicle, like the Volt. It seems almost as ridiculous, to install an extremely expensive and heavy large battery pack (like the Tesla S long-range options) which is only occasionally required by the BEV driver.

A functional range extender would consist of:

A small displacement (200-600 CC) ICE generator, run at highest-efficiency rpm, to recharge the battery pack. (You would start the ICE generator during your trip, as soon as your battery capacity drops to a level to efficiently accept a charge.) Generator output would not be sufficient to drive the vehicle, just enough to extend the battery pack range to the next convenient recharge location.

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extension for a LEAF-sized BEV.

The fuel would also be available to a combustion cabin heater, the one use for which battery energy storage is particularly inefficient.

I think this could be integrated into the design of BEVs (and maybe even as a portable unit, and available for rent, as many have fantasized) at lower cost, and lower weight, than the huge battery packs some BEV manufactures seem to think are advisable...

...I believe BMW may be the only manufacture currently contemplating this true ICE “range extender” option, for its BEVs...

The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:50 am

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evnow]

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extension for a LEAF-sized BEV.

Problem with propane etc is that it is not ubiquotous like gas. You want the range extender to be as a fail safe option, where you again don't need to start hunting for places to refuel. If it is a microturbine which runs on a variety of fuels, that would be ideal.

To me a range extender would
- Allow you to drive for 2 to 3 hours on the freeway before refueling.
- Allow you to keep up with the (slow ?) traffic on the freeway
- Doesn't reduce the trunc or cabin space
- Isn't "expensive"

i3 at this point seems to be doing fine on all accounts. We will have to wait for official confirmation.

 

[edatoakrun]

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extension for a LEAF-sized BEV.

Problem with propane etc is that it is not ubiquotous like gas...

Actually, I think you will find that propane infrastructure is ubiquitous in the US.

There are probably already a few dozen propane retailers within my home-charge range, as is probably the case for most US LEAF drivers. It would also require only a relatively minor incremental cost to add propane sales to DC charge stations, for added convenience.

Gasoline is highly polluting, unstable (and therefore poorly suited to the long-term fuel storage requirements of a BEVx) and does not lend itself well to use in a direct combustion heater, which could be almost as important a factor in "range extension" in the winter, as the generator would be.

...So, say you are a San Francisco Bay Area resident. You usually keep the heater set to propane by default in the winter, extending the range by about 10% and reducing battery cycling accordingly, without even using the ICE feature. You refill the 5 gallon propane tank once a month or so, just to supply the heater.

When you want to take the BEV on the occasional longer drive, say to Tahoe for a weekend of skiing, instead of making 3 or 4 stops (with a 20-30 available kWh battery pack) for DC charges, you just turn on the ICE generator during your trip, as soon as your battery capacity drops to a level to efficiently accept charge, while you and your passengers are kept toasty warm by the propane heater. You stop for one 30 minute 80% DC charge at Auburn (120 miles in 2 hours of driving, about 20 kWh consumed from the battery pack, and 16 kWh used from the generator) and top-off the propane tank (you only used a few gallons) at the adjacent minimart. This is just enough generator-assisted charge to get you the last 80 miles over Donner Summit to your destination, but you never get “range anxiety" (or BEV "freeze anxiety" about road closures or delays, due to weather) as you know that if you get the “very low battery” warning, you can just pull off the road, and if there is no charge station (or only a L2) nearby, you can always find a place to stop for a short break, while you self-recharge for the last few miles, using your generator. And if you get stuck behind a semi that jackknifed in a snowstorm, closing the road, you can watch the generator add bars to your battery, as the propane heater keeps you and your passenger comfortable, while you wait for the road to be cleared...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extension for a LEAF-sized BEV.

Problem with propane etc is that it is not ubiquotous like gas...

Actually, I think you will find that propane infrastructure is ubiquitous in the US.

There are probably already a few dozen propane retailers within my home-charge range, as is probably the case for most US LEAF drivers. It would also require only a relatively minor incremental cost to add propane sales to DC charge stations, for added convenience.

Gasoline is highly polluting, unstable (and therefore poorly suited to the long-term fuel storage requirements of a BEVx) and does not lend itself well to use in a direct combustion heater, which could be almost as important a factor in "range extension" in the winter, as the generator would be.

...So, say you are a San Francisco Bay Area resident. You usually keep the heater set to propane by default in the winter, extending the range by about 10% and reducing battery cycling accordingly, without even using the ICE feature. You refill the 5 gallon propane tank once a month or so, just to supply the heater.

When you want to take the BEV on the occasional longer drive, say to Tahoe for a weekend of skiing, instead of making 3 or 4 stops (with a 20-30 available kWh battery pack) for DC charges, you just turn on the ICE generator during your trip, as soon as your battery capacity drops to a level to efficiently accept charge, while you and your passengers are kept toasty warm by the propane heater. You stop for one 30 minute 80% DC charge at Auburn (120 miles in 2 hours of driving, about 20 kWh consumed from the battery pack, and 16 kWh used from the generator) and top-off the propane tank (you only used a few gallons) at the adjacent minimart. This is just enough generator-assisted charge to get you the last 80 miles over Donner Summit to your destination, but you never get “range anxiety" (or BEV "freeze anxiety" about road closures or delays, due to weather) as you know that if you get the “very low battery” warning, you can just pull off the road, and if there is no charge station (or only a L2) nearby, you can always find a place to stop for a short break, while you self-recharge for the last few miles, using your generator. And if you get stuck behind a semi that jackknifed in a snowstorm, closing the road, you can watch the generator add bars to your battery, as the propane heater keeps you and your passenger comfortable, while you wait for the road to be cleared...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I seem to have missed the thread you reference when it was current, but agree completely that a propane (or maybe CNG; multi-fuel would be nice) heater/range-extender is either necessary or highly valuable for cold weather usage of current BEVs if they're to be reasonably affordable, until batteries get cheap enough and/or heat pumps get efficient enough at sub-zero temps. And either propane swap-out tanks or tank refills are available pretty much anywhere that has barbeque supplies, as well as U-Haul etc. People having to do without heat in BEVs to do their winter commutes just isn't going to cut it, as the growing size of the threads on cold weather range issues indicates. Didn't Volvo have a BEV or PHEV that had a back-up gas-fired heater?

 

[evnow]

To me the idea of range extension is that you don't have to hunt for the fuel of the extender. It should just be available at every gas station - not one in 10 gas stations.

Since 95% of my commute is anyway EV, the marginal utility in getting propane over gas is very small, in terms of emissions - but a big dent in terms of convinience.

 

[gergg]

Not specific to the current i3, but found the article interesting anyway.
http://news.yahoo.com/toyota-bmw-research-lithium-air-battery-131434382--finance.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;