Official BMW i3 thread

[surfingslovak]

Price was not a factor in this German comparison because the LEAF was priced almost identically to the i3 in Germany. Not so in the US. The FFE was the most costly car in this comparo, costing about $5k more than the i3 and LEAF.

Please note that the i3 will be optioned differently in the US than in Europe. We suspected that when the base model MSRP was announced in July, and Jose Guerrero confirmed some of the details at the electronaut event in Woodcliff Lake today.

To be clear, I'm only going to mention what should be public information at this point. The base trim in the US will come equipped with LED headlights an the heat pump. There are other items, which BMW seems to be considering, and the included options could make up some of the difference in pricing when compared to other EVs. For example, one would have to order the LEAF in an SV trim with the LED headlights and QC package to get something comparable to the base i3 model.

 

[Boomer23]

Price was not a factor in this German comparison because the LEAF was priced almost identically to the i3 in Germany. Not so in the US. The FFE was the most costly car in this comparo, costing about $5k more than the i3 and LEAF.

Please note that the i3 will be optioned differently in the US than in Europe. We suspected that when the base model MSRP was announced in July, and Jose Guerrero confirmed some of the details at the electronaut event in Woodcliff Lake today.

To be clear, I'm only going to mention what should be public information at this point. The base trim in the US will come equipped with LED headlights an the heat pump. There are other items, which BMW seems to be considering, and the included options could make up some of the difference in pricing when compared to other EVs. For example, one would have to order the LEAF in an SV trim with the LED headlights and QC package to get something comparable to the base i3 model.

Slovak, was there any mention of a date when the US pricing will be firm and we can build an i3 online?

 

[surfingslovak]

Slovak, was there any mention of a date when the US pricing will be firm and we can build an i3 online?

Based on what transpired at the event, I believe that most of these things will firm up very soon. January was often mentioned in response to questions from the audience. EPA range figures won't be available until later in the spring. The time frame and rollout of pricing details and other announcements could be similar to what we saw with the 2013 LEAF earlier this year.

 

[TomMoloughney]

Price was not a factor in this German comparison because the LEAF was priced almost identically to the i3 in Germany. Not so in the US. The FFE was the most costly car in this comparo, costing about $5k more than the i3 and LEAF.

Please note that the i3 will be optioned differently in the US than in Europe. We suspected that when the base model MSRP was announced in July, and Jose Guerrero confirmed some of the details at the electronaut event in Woodcliff Lake today.

To be clear, I'm only going to mention what should be public information at this point. The base trim in the US will come equipped with LED headlights an the heat pump. There are other items, which BMW seems to be considering, and the included options could make up some of the difference in pricing when compared to other EVs. For example, one would have to order the LEAF in an SV trim with the LED headlights and QC package to get something comparable to the base i3 model.

Slovak, was there any mention of a date when the US pricing will be firm and we can build an i3 online?

From what I understand it will definitely be January. If I were a betting man I would put my money on them opening up the online configurer with pricing for the options a day or two before NAIAS begins which is January 13th, just to make a splash at the show.

 

[nosuchthing]

Honestly, I don't understand why smart company like BMW would go through all the hoops to produce a world-class automobile with a Leaf range.

With an 80-mile range (based on its battery size) I would not consider it even if it was gilded in gold.

 

[Beleaf]

Well, perhaps a smart company like BMW has access to research that shows a vehicle with Leaf range is the core market for EV's.

Look at the average trip for the bulk of metro motorists and this range is right in the sweet spot.

If you have an extended range EV with say 300 mile range, and your normal commute is less than 60 miles return then there is a fair argument that your purchasing is skewed by range anxiety and the occasional exception to your normal driving. Of course if your daily commute is greater than the i3 or Leaf's capacity, then look elsewhere, theses EV's are not for you.

 

[surfingslovak]

Honestly, I don't understand why smart company like BMW would go through all the hoops to produce a world-class automobile with a Leaf range.

With an 80-mile range (based on its battery size) I would not consider it even if it was gilded in gold.

I think they might have heard this a few times already. Nevertheless, it's one of my main hangups as well, when considering the i3. The second one is the range extender; I think it might be too limited here in the US to offer much value and benefit. After driving with resistive heaters for three years, I would very much prefer to have a heat pump in my next EV. I asked Jose about it at the event, and it looks like he understands the importance of this feature, and has been trying to make it happen. It sounded like he was behind the idea of putting the heat pump as standard equipment into every BEV i3 in the US. Unfortunately, the heat pump won't be available in the BEVx trim, at least not initially, which is another argument against the REx. And without it, the i3 might be simply too close to the 1st gen LEAF in terms of range. Happy to be proven wrong on this. I think that I might need a longer test drive to figure that out for myself. And like everyone else, I'm very curious to see the options pricing list as well. The electronaut edition is a great idea, which could help me personally, and would make the decision easier.

 

[surfingslovak]

Well, perhaps a smart company like BMW has access to research that shows a vehicle with Leaf range is the core market for EV's.

True, and I share this view also. I think BMW is looking for the minimum viable product in terms of range while emphasizing other factors, such as weight and handling, as well as innovating on multiple fronts around EV mobility. I'm heartened by the commitment the company has to EVs in general, and to the i3 program in particular. Despite the somewhat disappointing projected range, the final product and overall packaging could be quite compelling. Particularly for first-time EV buyers. This, of course, does not change the fact that experienced EV drivers often want more range first and foremost.

 

[RegGuheert]

This, of course, does not change the fact that experienced EV drivers often want more range first and foremost.

+1

While the range of the LEAF is a very good fit for our needs, my view of what the market needs has changed since we purchased it. For a wide variety of reasons, I now feel that 125 miles of EPA range can comfortably fit into the vast majority of multi-car households within the U.S. Convenience and flexibility are tops among the reasons, but weather is another significant factor.

That said, I am glad to see that the LEAF has a viable competitor in all of the U.S., not just CARB states. The more real competition we have, the faster we will see customer demands/needs/desires met (by all manufacturers - not a dig at Nissan).

 

[adric22]

Honestly, I don't understand why smart company like BMW would go through all the hoops to produce a world-class automobile with a Leaf range.

With an 80-mile range (based on its battery size) I would not consider it even if it was gilded in gold.

I would agree if not for the available range extender. Small though it may be, it makes the car infinitely more useful than a Leaf, hence the reason I'm considering an i3 for my Leaf replacement come June. The Leaf has enough range to suit 98% of my driving needs. The range extender would help it cover 99.99% of my driving needs, and possibly 100% depending on how well it works. I would not be interested in the i3 that is BEV only.

If I decide I can't afford the i3+Rex, then I'll most likely get a Chevy Volt. The 3rd option we're looking at is my wife giving me her Volt and she gets a new car. She likes the C-Max Energi... although I'm trying to steer her away from it.

As much as I love my Leaf, I have decided I don't want another BEV unless the range is at least 100+ real world miles. Really it would probably have to be closer to 125 for me to seriously consider. In the meantime, a PHEV of some kind makes more sense for me.

 

[edatoakrun]

Honestly, I don't understand why smart company like BMW would go through all the hoops to produce a world-class automobile with a Leaf range.

With an 80-mile range (based on its battery size) I would not consider it even if it was gilded in gold.

I would agree if not for the available range extender. Small though it may be, it makes the car infinitely more useful than a Leaf, hence the reason I'm considering an i3 for my Leaf replacement come June...

As much as I love my Leaf, I have decided I don't want another BEV unless the range is at least 100+ real world miles. Really it would probably have to be closer to 125 for me to seriously consider. In the meantime, a PHEV of some kind makes more sense for me.

Interesting to note that as more of the details of the i3 "city car" emerge, I (unlike others) have been losing interest in the ICE RE option, and am more intrigued by the BEV version, for my own rural/mountain driving use, with only the very infrequent need to drive over 100 miles a day.

This is primarily because, IMO, BMW (as directed by CARB) has botched the RE option (wrong fuel, wrong operating cycle) but has actually designed what looks to be a very good BEV.

...A functional range extender would consist of:

A small displacement (200-600 CC) ICE generator, run at highest-efficiency rpm, to recharge the battery pack. Generator output would not be sufficient to drive the vehicle, just enough to extend the battery pack range to the next convenient recharge location.

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extension for a LEAF-sized BEV.

The fuel would also be available to a combustion cabin heater, the one use for which battery energy storage is particularly inefficient...

The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But the BEV i3 could offer significant advantages for me over my 2011 LEAF.

I do get ~"real-world 100 mile" Summer range from my LEAF in both slow-speed mountain (~6,000 ft. of ascent and descent) driving:

...The results from the third test on 8/04/13, ~20,200 miles on odometer, were:

100.3 miles to VLB, 101.9 miles in total, by the odometer, ~193 minutes drive time...

Use CW report from range test to determine battery capacity

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And I also can get ~100 miles range, by choosing a slow-speed route, on the ~200 mile trip to the nearest DC chargers, at which point range per charge becomes largely a non-issue, for me.

...About my only disappointment from the trip was that heading into a stiff breeze all the way South, I might not have made my hoped-for ~106 miles from Orland to the Vacaville DC without the brief L2 stop I made at Winters (at ~90.6 miles, and ~7.1 miles past the first LBW, from my "100%" charge at Orland)...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=3319&start=20About" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would expect the much lighter weight of the i3 and smaller profile could produce significant range improvements over a LEAF at slower speeds and in trips with large ascents and descents, which pretty much describes all my long-range driving.

And though it is retrograde engineering IMO, the ATM on the i3 will surely result in a lesser loss of range in Winter for the i3 than I experience with my LEAF.

I "had to" drive an ICEV (for the first time in a year) on a Bay Area trip last week.

I hated the experience even before I managed to kill the battery and run out of gas on the same day...

If I'd had an i3, the improved (?) range (as well as heat pump and faster charging I could also get in a 2013 or newer LEAF) might have allowed me to avoid the ICEV.

And once there are DCs (assuming they are SAE capable, or I could get a CHAdeMO adapter for my i3) on this or most other trips up 150-250 miles, I probably wouldn't want an ICEV or a i3 BEVx (with its inherent BEV efficiency limitations) anyway.

 

[RegGuheert]

I would expect the much lighter weight of the i3 and smaller profile could produce significant range improvements over a LEAF at slower speeds and in trips with large ascents and descents, which pretty much describes all my long-range driving.

Except for the fact that the battery in the i3 is also smaller than that found in the LEAF. While expensive, it would seem to me that the REx option would be ideally suited to your occasional long trips since performance is not overly critical.

 

[kmp647]

Simple prediction : anyone who trades a Leaf for a non Rex I3 will be disappointed with the range.
Especially if they have highway driving in the commute.

In many cases range will be less than Leaf or same as leaf

 

[Beleaf]

Simple prediction : anyone who trades a Leaf for a non Rex I3 will be disappointed with the range.

Anyone who trades a Leaf on an i3 will know that there is not much difference in the range.

If they were already not happy with the Leaf Range, why would they trade for another EV with the same kind of range ?

Better Prediction: Anyone who trades a Leaf for an i3 will be delighted by the performance.

 

[Boomer23]

Better Prediction: Anyone who trades a Leaf for an i3 will be delighted by the performance.

Yep, the amazing 0-60 rush is the main reason that the i3 is on my list to replace my LEAF, especially since Nissan made the 2013 cars slower off the line. More range would have been very, very nice, but given my driving experience over the last almost three years with the LEAF, I'll do fine with the same range. Hopefully, with TMS, the car won't lose much range over time. Add a few CCS DCQCs here in EV heaven, and i'll be just fine.

 

[adric22]

I'll be insanely curious to see after a few months of sales to see which model proves to be more popular, the BEV or the REX model. In the USA, I expect the REX to greatly outsell the BEV version. I seriously hope other EV manufacturers such as Nissan take long look at that data too. The Leaf with an optional REX would likely sell very well too!

 

[edatoakrun]

Simple prediction : anyone who trades a Leaf for a non Rex I3 will be disappointed with the range.

Anyone who trades a Leaf on an i3 will know that there is not much difference in the range.

If they were already not happy with the Leaf Range, why would they trade for another EV with the same kind of range ?...

Correct.

If you think BEVs "need" 150 or 200 miles of range, I don't think the i3 is suitable for you, with or without the x.

I am essentially satisfied with my LEAF's range, at least in the ~9 warmest months of the year.

It's the lousy DC infrastructure that is the real problem driving a ~20 (available) kWh BEV in the USA.

And the USA DC infrastructure will be much worse for the i3 if it can't utilize CHAdeMO.

="Beleaf"
...Better Prediction: Anyone who trades a Leaf for an i3 will be delighted by the performance.

Agreed.

Especially if they choose the lighter and quicker BEV version, rather than the BEVx.

...it would seem to me that the REx option would be ideally suited to your occasional long trips since performance is not overly critical.

Well, I guess that's how you define both "performance" and "critical".

Check out the video of the road to the nearest (55 mph limit) highway.

In the beautiful hills just outside Redding, CA are some of the most awesome canyons to carve. Check your Google satelite image of Oak Run, CA and see the twisties down the hill to State Hwy 299...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVqPlQwZ-OA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The ~300 lbs and $4,000 of ICE/BEVx ballast I'd have to carry would significantly degrade the driving experience on the ~ 90% of my trips on roads like that one, as well as the BEV range and efficiency every time I took it out on the road.

 

[adric22]

I guess the way I look at the BEV vs. REX version is like this: There is very little sacrifice in getting the REX version. Sure, you lose the heatpump and a very small amount of efficiency and performance. Well, plus you have to pay a little more. BUT.. When you get in return is very valuable.

However, if you were to make a comparison between something like a Leaf and a Volt, you'd have to ask what you have to give up in order to get the range extender. You have to give up practically 50% of your total EV range, your ability to fast charge, plus an extra seat. If comparing to a lower-end PHEV like a C-Max Energi the trade-off is even worse.

With the i3, the REX feature has very little trade-off by comparison. Its essentially the same car. And unlike the Leaf I could actually drive an i3-REX from Dallas to Houston and it wouldn't take significantly longer to do so than a regular gasoline car. if I were to try going from Dallas to Houston in my Leaf it would probably take 24-36 hours to make the trip.

 

[edatoakrun]

... unlike the Leaf I could actually drive an i3-REX from Dallas to Houston and it wouldn't take significantly longer to do so than a regular gasoline car. if I were to try going from Dallas to Houston in my Leaf it would probably take 24-36 hours to make the trip.

~240 fairly level miles, all by freeway?

i3 BEVx, probably ~3.5 hours, with the ~two required stops for gas.

A DC capable LEAF or i3 BEV would take ~ 5 hours, if you had the ~ three DC stations you'd need in the right locations.


Yes, if you make this length drive regularly, you'd still probably want the x, even after DC was available.

Of course, if you wanted to drive much further, or had a mountain pass on your route (if you owned the i3 BEVx), you probably wouldn't want to be driving any of these vehicles.

Going back to the performance factor in the vehicle choice:

The first-ever BMW i3 Hot Lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDf6KIpwiMg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

Title: Review From the Track: BMW i3 Gets Driven to the Limit by Pro Driver – I Ride Shotgun (w/video)

http://insideevs.com/review-from-the-track-bmw-i3-gets-driven-to-the-limit-by-pro-driver-i-ride-shotgun-wvideo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty impressive article.