"No Market Need" for longer range EVs - Nissan's Mark Perry

[evnow]

With so many more Leafs out in the wild this winter, we are going to see some sobering numbers, particularly since it's impossible to run the fan without turning off the resistive heater when temperatures are below 60, the first serious design flaw I've found with the Leaf.

I think it is a niche feature you are asking for - rather than a "design flaw". Few want to turn on the fan which blows cold air in winter.

 

[dgpcolorado]

With so many more Leafs out in the wild this winter, we are going to see some sobering numbers, particularly since it's impossible to run the fan without turning off the resistive heater when temperatures are below 60, the first serious design flaw I've found with the Leaf.

I think it is a niche feature you are asking for - rather than a "design flaw". Few want to turn on the fan which blows cold air in winter.

Perhaps. I often run my ICE car with the CC system off unless I actually need the heat or outside air for cooling (no need for AC). Humidity is low enough here, especially when it is cold, that fogged windows are uncommon. And, although it is a bit "low tech", I keep a towel handy for wiping windows in a hurry rather than wait for the defroster.

Nevertheless, being able to blow air, whether recirculated or outside, without worrying about the heater coming on does seem like a big deal to me.

 

[DaveL]

Nissan recommends no more than 1 L3 charge per day

That limit is only if you're quick charging on a daily basis - occasional multi QC use in a day is not an issue as long as battery temps stay within normal range. There are taxis in Japan getting QCd multiple times daily so I wouldn't necessarily worry about this too much.

+1! Exactly! A lot of people just don't understand what Nissan is trying to say and you said it exactly the way it is. If you are taking a trip, you can safely QC up to 6 times in that day without degrading your battery pack. I've been telling people about this since June, but they just don't get it or want to believe it.

I would love to believe it! But where has Nissan said in writing (not some marketing guy's off hand comment) that the one per day L3 charge only applies to daily L3 use, or when the weather is warm or.....

All I've ever seen in writing from Nissan is found in the owners manual on page CH-7:

"NISSAN recommends that quick charging not be performed more than once a day."

and on page EV-21 under the heading of "Li-Ion Battery Life" it states:

"Avoid exceeding 70-80% state of charge when using frequent (more than once per week) public Fast Charge or Quick Charging."

So according to the manual, Nissan's definition of frequent L3 charges is more than once a week! So how could it be ok to do a L3 charge more than once a day without some sort of negative effect on the battery? Is Nissan just being overly cautious in their manual?

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

With so many more Leafs out in the wild this winter, we are going to see some sobering numbers, particularly since it's impossible to run the fan without turning off the resistive heater when temperatures are below 60, the first serious design flaw I've found with the Leaf.

I think it is a niche feature you are asking for - rather than a "design flaw". Few want to turn on the fan which blows cold air in winter.

I guess we'll see how much of a niche feature it is as cold sets in and those who have been commuting at the outer edge of their max range are forced to find ways to conserve energy to make it home those last few miles. We are certainly having to recalibrate some of our routines and considering 100% charging more often. In this last week we've needed to drive the Ice twice for lack of remaining range after several errands that we used to do with plenty left over. Maybe it's just a coincidence and maybe this will all turn out to not be such a big deal, time will tell.

 

[TomT]

Au Contrarie. It can be very effective for demisting a windshield here in Southern California when the temperature is in the 50s and the humidity is low, when directed only at the windshield (which the car will also not allow you to do)...

I think it is a niche feature you are asking for - rather than a "design flaw". Few want to turn on the fan which blows cold air in winter.

 

[Yodrak]

One or the other of you, or both of you, has got something backwards. I agree that few people would want the fan to be blowing cold air in the winter (except in places that aren't really all that cold), so I think it would be a design flaw if the heater has to be turned off in cold (below 60) in order to run the fan.

Did Gasless mean to write, 'it's impossible to run the fan without turning on the resistive heater when temperatures are below 60'?

it's impossible to run the fan without turning off the resistive heater when temperatures are below 60,

I think it is a niche feature you are asking for - rather than a "design flaw". Few want to turn on the fan which blows cold air in winter.

 

[padamson1]

One or the other of you, or both of you, has got something backwards. I agree that few people would want the fan to be blowing cold air in the winter (except in places that aren't really all that cold), so I think it would be a design flaw if the heater has to be turned off in cold (below 60) in order to run the fan.

Did Gasless mean to write, 'it's impossible to run the fan without turning on the resistive heater when temperatures are below 60'?

The issue Gasless is addressing is that there is no way to set the Temperature lower than 60. That means the heater is functioning whenever it is colder than 60 outside and you have the climate control active. If the heater is on, you're going to have an additional load on the battery which significantly reduces range. So it was not a typo (there are several active threads on the forum discussing this issue and techniques to get range back).

For those on the edge during their commute, the range loss could be the difference between walking and driving home, so I too disagree that this is a niche issue as the LEAF is supposed to function when temperatures dip below 55. In order to retain range one is forced to turn off the climate control, which when temperatures dip below 45deg can result in foggy windows due to warm bodies and breath inside the cabin, which then becomes a safety issue. A fan with no heater but with A/C will eliminate the fog on the windows (the A/C unit is a dehumidifier), so there is a purpose to having the fan on with no heat. But to do that you either need to (1) have a heat OFF button, (2) allow the user to set the temperature below 60, or (3) have MAX COOL setting that turns off the heater.

My LEAF has the CWP and I have noticed that the windshield defroster appears to operate at a significantly lower load than the heater, but it still reduces my range by a few miles over a 30mi trip.

 

[DaveEV]

The issue Gasless is addressing is that there is no way to set the Temperature lower than 60. That means the heater is functioning whenever it is colder than 60 outside and you have the climate control active. If the heater is on, you're going to have an additional load on the battery which significantly reduces range.

Do you drive in ECO mode? ECO mode significantly restricts how much power goes to the heater compared to D mode.

 

[TomT]

It is still up to 1.5Kw in Eco...

Do you drive in ECO mode? ECO mode significantly restricts how much power goes to the heater compared to D mode.

 

[DaveEV]

Do you drive in ECO mode? ECO mode significantly restricts how much power goes to the heater compared to D mode.

It is still up to 1.5Kw in Eco...

A lot better than 3-4 kW. If you drive for 2 hours 1.5 kW is the difference between having HVAC use up 10 and 20 miles of range or worse...

 

[GRA]

I think this article in the August Motor Trend, comparing the Volt, Leaf, and Prius:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1108_2011_chevrolet_volt_vs_2011_nissan_leaf_vs_2011_toyota_prius_comparison/viewall.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is one of the most balanced and useful ones I've seen for the general public, and certainly far better than Mark Perry's "People who like this sort of thing, say this is the sort of thing they like" nonsense.

[Added] This article is also from the Edmunds' site:

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/08/ev-buyers-want-more-range-than-offered.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Yodrak]

Thanks, I understand now.

The issue Gasless is addressing is that there is no way to set the Temperature lower than 60. That means the heater is functioning whenever it is colder than 60 outside and you have the climate control active.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The issue Gasless is addressing is that there is no way to set the Temperature lower than 60. That means the heater is functioning whenever it is colder than 60 outside and you have the climate control active.

I believe that isn't quite right. The heater would function when the temperature is lower than 60º inside the car. That could be a significant difference. Once you get the cabin heated above the set temperature, the heater should stay off.

 

[nosuchthing]

Not necessarily.

If you were on recirc then maybe. Now I'm no expert here but I have a feeling the car heats incoming outside cold air when it blows warm air at your face. Meanwhile, the cold air keeps coming in -- ergo the heater keeps heating it up. In recirc, if warm air is coming in, the heater stops heating it because it doesn't have to. I wised up to this pretty fast because I left my temp at 63 and miles were disappearing on me. I switched to 60 and miles got better. So, even a 3 degree gradient when outside air was in high 50s made a difference.

Makes sense?

Also, I found myself turning off the AC and just run fanned air to face. When I hit "off" the darn thing switches to "feet" as a default, and I have to hit "Mode" button to get back to "face" for passive air flow. I think it's a flaw and it should be reprogrammed. Took me a month to figure that one out -- my feet were in a cold draft even though I thought I was supposed to be getting air flow to my face. At first I thought something was wrong with the air ducts, or some open hole. I almost took the car in to have it checked out.