Newbie question: ChargePoint stations 6.6kW, or 3.3.kW?

[LeafNewbie]

Hello everyone,

the subject says it: at ChargePoint public charging stations, is one able to charge at 6.6kW always, or at some of the ChargePoint stations, or at none of them?

The question came to mind, as the 6.6kW charger is now available, so it would be nice to charge quicker. Still what is it good for, in case the car is able to handle 6.6kW, but the station won't deliver them?

Thank you for any reply.

 

[surfingslovak]

Good question, I have seen anywhere between 5.4 to 6.9 kW being drawn from public ChargePoint stations by 30A-capable vehicles. It was a rather eclectic sampling of EVs: Tesla Model S, Ford Focus Electric, Honda Fit, and ActiveE. That said, I have yet to see one of the new 6kW LEAFs in the wild.

 

[smkettner]

I believe they would be 30amp x 240v nominal so ~7.2kW
Keep in mind that is input power which will be more than the charger rating in output power.

 

[LeafNewbie]

Thank you, both of you, for the first replies. That was quick! So that already seems like some amount of ChargePoint charging stations DO exist, that support more than 3.3kW. That's already a good sign. Thanks again.

Maybe there's somebody who knows even more about this public charging station 6.6kW issue.

About the 2013 Nissan Leafs with 6.6kW: I have not seen anyone of them in the wild yet either, but I'm happy to have seen hundreds of them on cars.com already. In the beginning of February, there were maybe new 400 Leafs for sale still nationally, now it's more than 1500. That's a good sign as well. More and more new Leafs are rolling to the dealerships, and are available to the public, so for sale.


One more question: charging time - I already saw the "Nissan Leaf range chart" here on the forum. There it says, it takes about 5 minutes to charge a mile at a 3.3kW public charging station. So that's 12 miles gained per hour of charging. Nissan themselves say in the manual that it takes 7 hours to charge from "Low Battery Warning" (which is still far from "empty") to 100%. So combining the two calculations, that's 84 miles, that the Leaf can add in range, within those 7 hours (still with the 3.3kW charger, that is). Is this conclusion correct? Is the 12 miles gained per hour pretty realistic? Or is it not? I'm not referring to below-freezing temps, but more like 70F. Does the speed of miles added still vary, say, because charging from 0% to 30% or 80% to 100% adds less miles per hour of charge, than between 30% to 80%, because those are like the optimal charge levels, compared to f.e. from 80% to 100%? So it is sometimes 14miles an hour added, and sometimes 10miles an hour added? And I mean actual miles that can be driven, as calculated in the range chart. I am aware that the guess-o-meter can probably make big mileage jumps or only mildly increase the mileage displayed, just based on last driving behavior. So I can be pretty sure that, say, after a 1h rest-stop at a ChargePoint station at Chili's, I'm gonna have 12 miles of additional range, and not just, to use an example, just 5 additional miles?

Last newbie question for now: The Nissan sales person at the dealership told me, one can charge at any three prong outlet (with this trickle charge cable). Is that so? I am asking, because it says in Nissan's Leaf manual that it needs to be a regular outlet that indeed is on a separated electrical circuit, or something like that. I tried to ask the dealer: Is it possible that the outlet or the wiring might melt, that it can't handle the power the Leaf wants to draw through the trickle charge on an outlet. He didn't even understand, and just said again that one can charge at any outlet, it just takes very long with the trickle charge cable (I was aware of that part). So that means: Also when I'm visiting friends, I can just plug it in? I don't have to ask/make sure/inspect first, if it's a dedicated/separated circuit that I'm trying to plug into? It would be handy to be sure about this, because of the limited range.


Thank you once again for answering Newbie questions.

 

[surfingslovak]

I believe they would be 30amp x 240v nominal so ~7.2kW
Keep in mind that is input power which will be more than the charger rating in output power.

Yes, my current EV is 7.2 kW nominal, but I have never seen more than 6.6 drawn from the wall. I paid attention to other EVs, and the highest power draw I have seen was 6.9 kW. Why this discrepancy? I would attribute it to line voltage. I doubt that we'll see different behavior with the 6 kW 2013 LEAF at public charging stations, if it's rated at 30 amps as well. Should it be rated lower, which I doubt, we might see lower power draw than what I mentioned above.

 

[smkettner]

That charging time and miles added is fairly realistic. May slow a bit at the end but then you are done.

Yes you can plug into any regular outlet with the included L1 cord. LEAF draws 12 amps and the breaker is usually 15 and sometimes 20. So if you have other stuff sharing the circuit you may exceed the breaker rating and power will go off. Nothing is going to melt or burn up. Although if you have an older house with a worn outlet etc might be a good time to update and check the connections are tight. If you use an extension cord make sure it is in good condition and #14 wire, #12 is better, check the connectors for heat at 30 minutes and one hour. I drove almost 50 miles per day for the first 5 months on L1. It seemed at times it was either driving or charging near continuous. So yes plug in at your friend's or family's house, at work or any other place where permitted.

 

[surfingslovak]

Thank you, both of you, for the first replies. That was quick! So that already seems like some amount of ChargePoint charging stations DO exist, that support more than 3.3kW. That's already a good sign.

Welcome, this is a friendly community. Hopefully, the 2013 LEAF will meet your needs.

So I can be pretty sure that, say, after a 1h rest-stop at a ChargePoint station at Chili's, I'm gonna have 12 miles of additional range, and not just, to use an example, just 5 additional miles?

This depends on your driving efficiency. One hour with the old onboard charger will add about 3 kWh of usable energy to the battery. If you drove the LEAF carefully in the summer, and had high energy economy, then a one-hour stop could yield 15 to 18 miles of range. If you drove less efficiently or it was cold and raining, then you could see something closer to 10 miles.

Last newbie question for now: The Nissan sales person at the dealership told me, one can charge at any three prong outlet (with this trickle charge cable). Is that so?

Yes, and doing so is not detrimental. The only material downside is lower overall efficiency and the slow speed. One hour of charging will result in about 1 kWh of usable energy added to the battery. And a disproportionally larger amount of electricity will be used for running cooling pumps and onboard electronics. Level 2 charging losses are about 15% and level 1 charging losses are about 30%. If you supplied most of the miles driven from a wall outlet, then there will be an appreciable difference in the electricity bill when compared to the recommended 240V charging station. Not enough to pay for the installation of an EVSE, but maybe enough for a nice dinner or two.

 

[davewill]

Thank you, both of you, for the first replies. That was quick! So that already seems like some amount of ChargePoint charging stations DO exist, that support more than 3.3kW. That's already a good sign. Thanks again. ...

I don't actually think there are any that are limited to 3.3kW. The standard is 30a 208v/240v.

 

[planet4ever]

One more question: charging time - I already saw the "Nissan Leaf range chart" here on the forum. There it says, it takes about 5 minutes to charge a mile at a 3.3kW public charging station. So that's 12 miles gained per hour of charging. Nissan themselves say in the manual that it takes 7 hours to charge from "Low Battery Warning" (which is still far from "empty") to 100%. So combining the two calculations, that's 84 miles, that the Leaf can add in range, within those 7 hours (still with the 3.3kW charger, that is). Is this conclusion correct?

Not really. Since you have looked at the LEAF range chart you know that range is critically dependent on speed. Traveling 84 miles to Low Battery Warning (LBW) is unlikely unless you hold your speed under 50 mph. It's also unlikely if you are constantly stopping for traffic signals. The catch, as you yourself postulated, is that charging slows as you approach 100%, so you don't get many more miles out of that last hour of charging.

Is the 12 miles gained per hour pretty realistic? Or is it not?

It is realistic, IF you can average close to 4 miles/kWh. The math is really quite simple. Until you get above 80% (which you probably wouldn't be doing with a 1 hour charge) you are adding a little more than 3kWh to the battery in an hour. Even assuming some loss in the battery, pulling 3kWh out of the battery when getting 4 m/kWh gives you 3 * 4 = 12 miles. The truth is you can, and probably will, get 12 miles or more out of that hour if you are running it close trying to get home. You will slow down and turn off climate control, and your m/kWh will soar.

Ray

 

[KeiJidosha]

...is one able to charge at 6.6kW always...

ChargePoint unit will scroll the kW charge rate on the screen. Varies depending on local utility voltage. If you don’t have a ChargePoint card you can call the number on the charger to activate it so you can use it.

 

[DaveEV]

I don't actually think there are any that are limited to 3.3kW. The standard is 30a 208v/240v.

Yep, there are very few public charging stations capable of less than 30A - only ones commonly found are the 15A/120V receptacles commonly found on ChargePoint pedestals.

As davewill says you'll find either 208V/30A or 240V/30A out in commercial settings depending on what voltage the location has.

 

[shortcircuit]

Hello everyone,

the subject says it: at ChargePoint public charging stations, is one able to charge at 6.6kW always, or at some of the ChargePoint stations, or at none of them?

The question came to mind, as the 6.6kW charger is now available, so it would be nice to charge quicker. Still what is it good for, in case the car is able to handle 6.6kW, but the station won't deliver them?

Thank you for any reply.

Here's a few data points for you. I have the 6.6kW charger on my 2013 SV. I have visited a 208V/240V 30A ChargePoint station three time now. Based on the ChargePoint Usage History here are my charging numbers at this stations:

Session Energy (kWh)          Session Duration (h)        Power (kW)
4.71                          0.81                        5.82
6.26                          1.54                        4.07
2.37                          0.42                        5.64

It's interesting that the average power level is not constant (albeit, this is only 3 points and only one station). Using my L2 EVSE at home I'm seeing rates of approximately 6.6kW based on my electric company's smart meter log so I know the Leaf can handle faster rates than what this particular ChargePoint station is putting out.

 

[LEAFer]

Here's a few data points for you. I have the 6.6kW charger on my 2013 SV. I have visited a 208V/240V 30A ChargePoint station three time now. Based on the ChargePoint Usage History here are my charging numbers at this stations:

Session Energy (kWh)          Session Duration (h)        Power (kW)
4.71                          0.81                        5.82
6.26                          1.54                        4.07
2.37                          0.42                        5.64

It's interesting that the average power level is not constant (albeit, this is only 3 points and only one station). Using my L2 EVSE at home I'm seeing rates of approximately 6.6kW based on my electric company's smart meter log so I know the Leaf can handle faster rates than what this particular ChargePoint station is putting out.

The 4.07kW value: where did you get this ? Was it looking at the display on the station ? If so, it may have been near 100% SOC. Or if it's just a calculation of (kWh/h) during the almost 2 hours your LEAF may have slowed down the charge as it was approaching 100%. Thus the average power was 4.07kW. (It's also possible charging completed a while before you unplugged, but the extra time plugged in counted toward the Session Duration.)

The 5.82 & 5.64 kW values are more in line and typical at a 208V (nominal) location where the LEAF is drawing 30A and experiencing a voltage drop: (2.37 / 0.42 = 5.64; 5,640W/30A = 188Volts (a big drop); and 4.71/0.81 = 5,815W / 30A = 194V (still a bit on the low side) )

**EDIT**: Look down two posts. If the 2013 LEAF's 6/6.6kW charger limits current draw to 27.5A ... then the voltage drops are obviously much smaller. 5,640W/27.5A = 205V and 5,815W/27.5A = 211V (slightly overvolted from 208V nominal -- unless a 240V system and thus a loss of 12% -- possible but not likely).

 

[ERG4ALL]

I've been tracking the LEAF for almost four years. As time for launch neared, I was signed up to get an AV wall unit installed. At that time I happened to be building the garage that the LEAF is stored. Nissan initially said that a 240V 30A circuit would be sufficient. Thus, I strung the wire and put in a 30A breaker. Then just before I put in the drywall, I checked again with the on line chat sessions and found that they now recommended a 240V 40A circuit. I pulled the 10 gauge wire and installed 8 gauge with a 40A breaker. I believe that what happened was that Ford had "dropped one shoe" for their Focus EV and claimed that it would charge in half the time of a LEAF so Nissan responded with offering a 6.6 kW on board charger to match Ford. Thus, the requirement went up. I'm not sure what every public charging station can handle, but I know that mine can handle the 6.6 kW charger with no problem. Because the current draw is really a function of what the car is set for rather than the wall unit, I would suspect that most public charging stations would also be set for at least 40A, otherwise we would see more charging stations not working because a circuit breaker had been tripped by a 6.6 kW LEAF.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Because the current draw is really a function of what the car is set for rather than the wall unit, I would suspect that most public charging stations would also be set for at least 40A, otherwise we would see more charging stations not working because a circuit breaker had been tripped by a 6.6 kW LEAF.

Not quite. The EVSE tells the car what it can deliver via the 1kHz PWM signal it sends to the car. Then, the car can pull up to the "pilot" signal. This is what prevents the circiut breaker from popping.

No, most public stations are 30 amps, including all Blinks. My 40 amp Tesla charger runs at 30 amps at most public chargers.

So, here's some typical examples of the power draw from the wall:


----------- Japan --- USA/Canada - The World --- USA/Canada ------ USA/Canada
Amps --- 200 volts --- 208 volts --- 230 volts ------- 240volts ------- 277 volts

16 -------- 3.2kW -------- 3.3kW ------ 3.7kW ---------- 3.8kW -------- 4.4kW
27.5 ------ 5.5kW -------- 5.7kW ------ 6.3kW ---------- 6.6kW -------- 7.6kW
30 ---------6.0kW -------- 6.2kW ------ 6.9 kW --------- 7.2kW -------- 8.3kW
40 -------- 8.0kW -------- 8.3kW ------ 9.2kW ---------- 9.6kW -------- 11.0kW


Obviously, the charger will output some value below those stated above, at about 85-90%. So, a typical LEAF drawing 16 amps at your North American house's 240 volts will put 3.3kW into the battery, and draw 3.8kW from the wall.

The new 2013 LEAF with optional 27.5 amp charger will be about 6.6kW at 240 volts. I don't know if its been measured at 200 or 208 volts yet to see if it increases to 30 amps.

 

[LEAFer]

...
The new 2013 LEAF with optional 27.5 amp charger will be about 6.6kW at 240 volts. I don't know if its been measured at 200 or 208 volts yet to see if it increases to 30 amps.

The 27.5A charge rate would explain the low kW numbers shortcircuit is seeing. Thus ... I amend my post

 

[bobs]

North American residential "single-phase" service is 240V. North American commercial "three-phase" service is 208V.

ChargePoint's installation document requires a 40A breaker, which it defends against tripping by delivering power corresponding to around 30A. That means it can deliver at most around 6.2kW on commercial service, or around 7.2kW on residential service.

My 2012 always (unless it's in the first few seconds of initial ramp-up, or nearly full and tapering off) draws around 3.7kW, according to the ChargePoint station's scrolling instant status display. With its higher-power L2 charger, your 2013 should see slightly higher charging rates at home than in public because it is spec'd to be able to draw more than a public station can deliver.

 

[mitch672]

FYI, I charged my Tesla Model S at a Chargepoint yesterday (at the Ninety Nine in Easton, MA), that was running 30A @ 208V, it was charging at 15 miles/hour (as shown on the Tesla screen), total energy 16.406kWh (over 2 hours, 36 minutes), the rate was 6.2kw.. It could have charged faster if there was more power available, or the voltage was higher (240V).. I have the dual 10KW chargers, at home it charges faster.

 

[tbleakne]

Beware Chargepoint's dual-port models in their new CT-4000 series EVSEs. These units can either be wired in standard configuration, with each hose on its own 40A breaker circuit, 30A continuous, or they can be wired to SHARE a single 40A breaker circuit, 32A maximum draw. In the latter case, you will get up to 30A on one J1772 hose if the other hose is not active, but if another EV driver plugs in the second hose, your maximum current will drop to keep the total below 32A. If your car has no more than a 3.3 kW charger, you won't notice any slowing of charge, but if your car has a 6 kW or larger charger, you will see your charge rate fall. If the other car is a Volt, which charges at 12A, you will get 32A - 12A = 20A. If the car is a Leaf, you will both get 16A.

I have used one of the new models, but I won't be able to determine if it is wired to share one 40A breaker circuit unless I happen to find it with a second car charging at the same time.

This series has replaced the previous models, which are no longer in production. This series as presently programmed does not display the power as it is charging, but it does display the total energy delivered at the end of the session.

https://www.chargepoint.com/files/CT4000-Data-Sheet.pdf

I realize the share configuration is more efficient for the host, but there should be a way to determine how it is wired, so you know how fast you will charge. I have not found a way to display this.

 

[DaveEV]

If the other car is a Volt, which charges at 12A, you will get 32A - 12A = 20A.

I believe that if two cars are plugged in each will get 16A regardless as long as both are actively charging. Would love to be shown otherwise.

Probably the easiest way to find out if it shares a power circuit would be to get a Tesla there as it will show the maximum charge rate on the center console when plugged in.

Personally, I am all for these dual-plug power sharing stations, even if it means you may get less power when sharing as can significantly reduce congestion and reduce the cost to install more plugs. I would rather have 2 plugs that share a 40A circuit over a single plug on a dedicated 40A circuit. Even better would be 4 plugs on 2 40A circuits. Most of the time when on L2, you're not going necessarily need the difference between 16-30A.

I do think that as 30A L2 charging becomes more common place, it would make sense to make the CT4000 share a 50A circuit instead of a 40A circuit. That way when sharing you'd get 20A instead of just 16A. A decent boost in speed when sharing. Ideally a single plug would also handle up to 40A to charge those Teslas and RAV4-EVs more quickly, too. That said, for busy locations, I'd probably still rather see more plugs.

For really high volume locations ideally you might have a 200A feed serving 10 plugs. Each plug would be capable of 80A, but the power would be split up only as much as the car can use. And perhaps you might be able to pay extra to guarantee a higher share of the power should too many plugs be in use if you really want to charge as quickly as possible.