New LEAF commerical: 'Gas Powered Everything'

[evnow]

Reaction from the hybrid side ...

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?7918

 

[LEAFguy]

A friend of mine has had a Volt for 4.5 months: almost 3,600 miles and a total of 2.6 gallons consumed ( that's 1,384 MPG so far, and a projected 9,600 miles per year ).
Edit: I substituted my memory recall numbers with the actual numbers in above paragraph, and added the MPG calculation.

You should have left it without the MPG calculation. The Volt gets somewhere around 35 miles per gallon when using the gas engine. The rest of the time it uses battery power. That does not equate to anything other than roughly 35 miles per gallon of gasoline. The Toyota Prius does not get 50 MPG. It gets something less because some power is provided by a battery. As plug-in Hybrids become more common, we will continue to see ever inflating gasoline miles per gallon numbers. These will all be inaccurate unless and until there comes a way to measure how much energy is provided by gasoline and how much energy is provided by battery. But the marketing types have already paved the way with Prius, so all future hybrids, plugin or otherwise, will just continue to provide inflated miles per gallon.

 

[DaveEV]

The Toyota Prius does not get 50 MPG. It gets something less because some power is provided by a battery.

Uh, yeah it does. Unless you can plug it in - it gets all it's energy from gas so if it gets 50 MPG - it gets 50 MPG. For example - cruise at a steady 65 mph on flat land and your Prius will get about 50 mpg. You could remove the hybrid components and it would still get 50 mpg - when cruising the Prius does not use the battery to any significant degree.

 

[evnow]

A friend of mine has had a Volt for 4.5 months: almost 3,600 miles and a total of 2.6 gallons consumed ( that's 1,384 MPG so far, and a projected 9,600 miles per year ).

So looks like he could have done with an EV instead of a PHEV.

 

[Spies]

Reaction from the hybrid side ...

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?7918

Ah man, why did I click on that link? I went over there and read posts like

Yes the Volt doesn't use gas but, depending on where you live, the Leaf may end up emitting more pollution and emissions.

:shock:

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

A friend of mine has had a Volt for 4.5 months: almost 3,600 miles and a total of 2.6 gallons consumed ( that's 1,384 MPG so far, and a projected 9,600 miles per year ).

So looks like he could have done with an EV instead of a PHEV.

Exactly.. he could have driven the same 3,600 miles in a LEAF with 0 gallons, which would be INFINITE MPG.. my calculator exploded.

 

[planet4ever]

A friend of mine has had a Volt for 4.5 months: almost 3,600 miles and a total of 2.6 gallons consumed ( that's 1,384 MPG so far, and a projected 9,600 miles per year ).

So looks like he could have done with an EV instead of a PHEV.

Exactly.. he could have driven the same 3,600 miles in a LEAF with 0 gallons, which would be INFINITE MPG.. my calculator exploded.

Not necessarily. He might have used that 2.6 gallons for one trip of 125 miles. If he drove the LEAF instead and thought he could make it, but didn't, the tow truck could easily have used 5 gallons of diesel while rescuing him.

Ray

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Not necessarily. He might have used that 2.6 gallons for one trip of 125 miles. If he drove the LEAF instead and thought he could make it, but didn't, the tow truck could easily have used 5 gallons of diesel while rescuing him.

Hmm.. there's that.

 

[planet4ever]

The Volt gets somewhere around 35 miles per gallon when using the gas engine. The rest of the time it uses battery power. That does not equate to anything other than roughly 35 miles per gallon of gasoline. The Toyota Prius does not get 50 MPG. It gets something less because some power is provided by a battery. As plug-in Hybrids become more common, we will continue to see ever inflating gasoline miles per gallon numbers. These will all be inaccurate unless and until there comes a way to measure how much energy is provided by gasoline and how much energy is provided by battery. But the marketing types have already paved the way with Prius, so all future hybrids, plugin or otherwise, will just continue to provide inflated miles per gallon.

Leaving out the nonsense about the Prius, which drees already corrected you on, you are right that you need to allow for the electrical energy. But you are wrong in your "unless and until" assertion. This has already been measured and computed, and the answer is on the Volt's official sticker: 37 MPG on gas, 93 MPGE on electricity. So the Volt that went "almost 3600 miles" on 2.6 gallons of gas must have traveled about 3500 miles on electricity. At that ratio the gas component is lost in the rounding error, but if you insist, 3500/97 = 36.1 gallons of "e-gas". Combining, (3600 miles) / (36.1 + 2.6) = 93 MPGE uninflated.

Sorry, LEAFguy, but that is a very respectable number, and only about 6% lower than what the official LEAF sticker claims.

Ray

I had an error in this post which I need to correct. Let's try again.

At that ratio the gas component is nearly lost in the rounding error, but if you insist, 3500/93 = 37.6 gallons of "e-gas". Combining, (3600 miles) / (37.6 + 2.6) = 89.5 MPGE uninflated.

Sorry, LEAFguy, but that is a very respectable number, and only about 10% lower than what the official LEAF sticker claims.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Not necessarily. He might have used that 2.6 gallons for one trip of 125 miles. If he drove the LEAF instead and thought he could make it, but didn't, the tow truck could easily have used 5 gallons of diesel while rescuing him.

Ray

that would be very highly unlikely and the REAL REASON i did not get a Volt. since the Volt cannot run 100% on EV power. it must start up even when it wont be going farther than its EV range, correct? so the 2.6 gallons could have been burned at the rate of a few ounces at a time every time it started.

the other thing is that if his need for long distance trips were really that minimal, it would not be difficult to plan a charge... oh wait. i guess he could not get a boost charge like i did when i did my 122 miles.

oh well. i wonder what the car rental rate is in his town is? could it be somewhat less than the $8,000 difference in price?

 

[evnow]

it must start up even when it wont be going farther than its EV range, correct? so the 2.6 gallons could have been burned at the rate of a few ounces at a time every time it started.

No - engine doesn't need to start. What Volt does is to start the engine once in 6 months to burn the stale gas.

 

[evnow]

Not necessarily. He might have used that 2.6 gallons for one trip of 125 miles. If he drove the LEAF instead and thought he could make it, but didn't, the tow truck could easily have used 5 gallons of diesel while rescuing him.

Well, that is the "my friend is an idiot" argument

The chances are he spent the fuel on a few trips that were above 35 miles are so.

 

[LEAFfan]

it must start up even when it wont be going farther than its EV range, correct? so the 2.6 gallons could have been burned at the rate of a few ounces at a time every time it started.

No - engine doesn't need to start. What Volt does is to start the engine once in 6 months to burn the stale gas.

Are you sure its every 6 months? When I had my cng converted Celica, I was told to run the gasoline through no longer than 2-3 months. I suppose a Volt driver could put in some 'gas extender', but I'm not sure even with that if it would be a good idea to wait 6 months.

 

[edatoakrun]

I have been wondering how the volt deals with heating the cabin. Since ICE engines are very efficient at generating heat, I assumed the ICE engine would be controllable-either by the driver or otherwise-to heat the car. The idea being that if you know that you are planning to exceed the electric range in the winter, the engine could be started immediately to utilize ICE waste heat, rather than battery capacity. But as near as I can tell from the description below...

http://gm-volt.com/2010/12/09/the-chevrolet-volt-coolingheating-systems-explained/

...cabin heat, like propulsion on the volt, is exclusively electric (resistance) until the batteries are depleted?

BTW, the complexity of the four separate coolant/heatant systems in the volt as described above (including four separate radiators!) make me temper my earlier criticism of the LEAF's dual coolant/heatant system.

 

[LALeaf]

A friend of mine has had a Volt for 4.5 months: almost 3,600 miles and a total of 2.6 gallons consumed ( that's 1,384 MPG so far, and a projected 9,600 miles per year ).

So looks like he could have done with an EV instead of a PHEV.

Another way to look at it is that the friend brought a very short range EV and decided to drag along a very heavy gas generator everywhere he went just in case he exceeded his range. While it appears a few times he did exceed his range and had to use the generator, he may have not had to if he had a larger battery, with say a 100 or even 73 mile range. It should be noted that dragging the heavy generator everywhere reduces the efficiency of his use of electric power. In fact, if he had left the generator at home he might have had enough extra range for those few occasions where he would have used the generator, to not have needed it.

 

[MrFish]

I like both cars, I wish I could afford both. I love my Leaf for commuting (especially since I got my HOV stickers) but I don't see driving the family down to San Diego for the day in it. The cars are actually very complementary, and then we wouldn't need a thread on "how to hook a generator up to a Leaf" or "hey Nissian is lying to us on the usable size of the battery."
So, in the immortal words of Rodney, "can't we all get along?"
That being said, the video is hilarious! I love the gas powered cell phone, I could watch Netflix on my phone without charging!

 

[LEAFer]

Ok ... there's too many replies for me to quote and respond to individually since LEAFguy's post a page or two back. So I'll simply add some more info.

Yes, true, I could have LEFT OUT the MPG calculation in the 1,000's of miles per gallon, but I left it in there to prove a point. The Volt can be a very viable PEV, and yes you are "dragging around" a backup generator. To us that are idealists (that includes me) I prefer ZERO gas, zero complexity, and zero confusion, and so we automatically reject the "backup plan" "polluting" our desire for a *PURE* EV. And yes, I should also include the electricity usage; and, yes, it's more complicated "than that" ... and yes, it could achieve "infinite" per gallon efficiency.

But what if I told you my friend has at least one other BEV, and a PHEV ? And what if I told you I know someone with a Tesla, a LEAF and a Volt ? Would you still diss the Volt ? (Think about that family's plan for a while before you respond! And do NOT assume or make arguments based on anything about financial status!)

Yes, the Volt gets 35[sic] mpg. Actually the EPA claim is 37. And it easily achieves better than that (like 40) in mixed driving, because the regen gives you just a little "juice" which it then uses on the next acceleration cycle (where the gas engine is inefficient).

And I know a couple that took a two day trip in a Volt and drove 343 miles and used 4.7 gallons (that's 73mpg), because they used convenient public charging along the way while dining, shopping, hotel stay, etc to reduce their gasoline consumption. (And I will refrain from a discussion how a BEV would have handled that trip for the two of them.) Their Volt's mpg could have been 93mpg if the EVSE at the last planned stop hadn't been inaccessible.

The Prius is a great car ! The Volt is a great car ! The Tesla is a great car ! The LEAF is a great car !

Everyone of them is a MAJOR step in the right direction. This forum's focus is the LEAF. There are some other fuel efficient great cars ( I was suprised by the Ford Fusion Hybrid's efficiency ) ... but let's not start a whole new discussion now ... No one car is perfect for all of any one individual's needs.

My point was the LEAF and Volt should stop bashing each other. But then again ... maybe -- as a non-marketing type -- I am day dreaming of a world where we can just all get along.

And that's all I have to say about that ! (With apologies to Forrest Gump)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

it must start up even when it wont be going farther than its EV range, correct? so the 2.6 gallons could have been burned at the rate of a few ounces at a time every time it started.

No - engine doesn't need to start. What Volt does is to start the engine once in 6 months to burn the stale gas.

oh ok. i thought Volt had to start gas engine if climate controls were needed even during EV operation. if person had car nearly 4 months would have took delivery in feb. would he not have to run engine for short period of time?

the explanation advises electric only until car starts up which would account for large drop in range during winter. i am surprised to see belt driven pumps on the Volt. i kinda thought that would have been eliminated to boost efficiency. that 37 mpg is starting to make more sense

 

[LEAFguy]

The Toyota Prius does not get 50 MPG. It gets something less because some power is provided by a battery.

Uh, yeah it does. Unless you can plug it in - it gets all it's energy from gas so if it gets 50 MPG - it gets 50 MPG. For example - cruise at a steady 65 mph on flat land and your Prius will get about 50 mpg. You could remove the hybrid components and it would still get 50 mpg - when cruising the Prius does not use the battery to any significant degree.

I stand corrected. (Apparently I was just feeling really contentious right around then (and wasn't really thinking, either...))

Yes, the Volt gets 35[sic] mpg. Actually the EPA claim is 37. And it easily achieves better than that (like 40) in mixed driving, because the regen gives you just a little "juice" which it then uses on the next acceleration cycle (where the gas engine is inefficient).

I said "around 35" initially, only because I didn't feel like looking it up. I knew it was mid-30's. And just as with the LEAF, or a Ford F350, your mileage WILL vary, depending on driving conditions and driving style. Nothing new there. Some will likely get 35 or less, just as some may get 40.

At that ratio the gas component is lost in the rounding error, but if you insist, 3500/97 = 36.1 gallons of "e-gas". Combining, (3600 miles) / (36.1 + 2.6) = 93 MPGE uninflated. Sorry, LEAFguy, but that is a very respectable number, and only about 6% lower than what the official LEAF sticker claims.

Ray, I never said anything about the efficiency of the Volt while running on electricity. Only that the gasoline and electric components needed to be accounted for separately. So I guess I contradicted myself with the "unless and until" statement, as this has already been determined. The only thing that threw me with your response was the 3500/97. Where did the 97 come from? Thanks

 

[evnow]

So, in the immortal words of Rodney, "can't we all get along?"

To set the record straight - GM started this whole thing.

In 2010 plug-in conference, GM in their presser went out of the way describing EVs as dangerous since "you can't take a sick child to emergancy room if the EV doesn't have enough charge". Then they tried to patent "range anxiety". In their ad they called Volt better than your "Leaf Blower".

So, apparently they don't want to get along.

There is also a corporate story behind this. GM's contention has been that EVs are not practicle (that was the excuse for EV1 fiasco). They want to continue that old GM mentality ... they don't want to admit they were wrong.