National charge network

[ebill3]

2. the CHAdeMO has already been adopted by the major car brands so why would they go and change? (2,700 already installed through out the world)

Well, not really. In the USA, I believe only the Mitsubishi i MiEV and LEAF. Not Ford, not GM, not Tesla, not Toyota. It appears that Tesla will market an adapter, but not yet.

 

[planet4ever]

Long distance travel in a commuter car doesn't make sense when the car can only go 50 miles after each L3 charging session.

I agree. You'll be driving for less than an hour, then stopping for half an hour, even if you don't have to wait for a QC to be available. Most people will not put up with increasing their trip lengths by a minimum of 50%. And please don't tell me you have to stop at a restaurant every hour.

evguy5's argument that "someday" things will get better is true, but when that someday arrives I doubt if we will be satisfied with charging stations where we have to sit for an hour or more to be able to go the next 150 miles. I'm not sure we should spend a lot of money on technology that won't satisfy the requirement today and is likely to be obsolete tomorrow.

Ray

 

[Zythryn]

Long distance travel in a commuter car doesn't make sense when the car can only go 50 miles after each L3 charging session.

I agree. You'll be driving for less than an hour, then stopping for half an hour, even if you don't have to wait for a QC to be available. Most people will not put up with increasing their trip lengths by a minimum of 50%. And please don't tell me you have to stop at a restaurant every hour.

evguy5's argument that "someday" things will get better is true, but when that someday arrives I doubt if we will be satisfied with charging stations where we have to sit for an hour or more to be able to go the next 150 miles. I'm not sure we should spend a lot of money on technology that won't satisfy the requirement today and is likely to be obsolete tomorrow.

Ray

This is exactly the reason I like the Tesla supercharger/charger tech.
Fr today's car battery sizes (other than the Tesla) the CHAdeMO works well.
But it is too slow for greater capacity packs.
The Tesla charger uses the same port on the car for both L2 and QC. In addition it is currently capable of delivering 120 kW. Imagine charging a Leaf in under 12 minutes?

 

[planet4ever]

I seem to be taking a consistently negative position on this, but at the risk of being labeled a grumpy old man (at least two thirds of which is undeniably true) here is one more negative whack:

Let us suppose that against very high odds the petition actually succeeds in getting enough signatures, and the administration decides to move on it. Let us also suppose that against very high odds the Democrats become a majority in the House in 2014, so there is some chance that a funding bill for the network could be passed. What do you think the chances are that the Congress and administration would create a program that would use a Japanese standard, rather than a competing American standard, for the network? Especially with all of the American auto manufacturers lobbying for the American standard.

So either (very high probability) nothing happens, or (tiny probability) a "Frankenplug" network gets built that LEAFs can't use, or (zero probability) a CHAdeMO network gets built. There is no possible outcome that will help LEAF owners.

Ray

 

[evguy5]

Long distance travel in a commuter car doesn't make sense when the car can only go 50 miles after each L3 charging session.

I agree. You'll be driving for less than an hour, then stopping for half an hour, even if you don't have to wait for a QC to be available. Most people will not put up with increasing their trip lengths by a minimum of 50%. And please don't tell me you have to stop at a restaurant every hour.

evguy5's argument that "someday" things will get better is true, but when that someday arrives I doubt if we will be satisfied with charging stations where we have to sit for an hour or more to be able to go the next 150 miles. I'm not sure we should spend a lot of money on technology that won't satisfy the requirement today and is likely to be obsolete tomorrow.

Ray

This is exactly the reason I like the Tesla supercharger/charger tech.
Fr today's car battery sizes (other than the Tesla) the CHAdeMO works well.
But it is too slow for greater capacity packs.
The Tesla charger uses the same port on the car for both L2 and QC. In addition it is currently capable of delivering 120 kW. Imagine charging a Leaf in under 12 minutes?

It would be great to be able to charge the Leaf in 5 minutes but that's assuming that Tesla gives away their technology for either free or at a very reasonable price. It also assumes that the other car companies will adopt this technology after they have spent a lot of money investing in the CHAdeMO technology. I don't see that happening. Why not try to support the technology that already works for various cars?

 

[evguy5]

Long distance travel in a commuter car doesn't make sense when the car can only go 50 miles after each L3 charging session.

I agree. You'll be driving for less than an hour, then stopping for half an hour, even if you don't have to wait for a QC to be available. Most people will not put up with increasing their trip lengths by a minimum of 50%. And please don't tell me you have to stop at a restaurant every hour.

evguy5's argument that "someday" things will get better is true, but when that someday arrives I doubt if we will be satisfied with charging stations where we have to sit for an hour or more to be able to go the next 150 miles. I'm not sure we should spend a lot of money on technology that won't satisfy the requirement today and is likely to be obsolete tomorrow.

Ray

So what would be your solution?

 

[Zythryn]

...
It would be great to be able to charge the Leaf in 5 minutes but that's assuming that Tesla gives away their technology for either free or at a very reasonable price. It also assumes that the other car companies will adopt this technology after they have spent a lot of money investing in the CHAdeMO technology. I don't see that happening. Why not try to support the technology that already works for various cars?

Because the current technology will be obsolete with the next generation of EVs.
Because the Tesla solution is more elegant and requires less hardware (one small plug, rather than two larger ones, or the huge frankenplug.

Please note, I am not saying this will happen, as it won't be free for the manufacturers. I am just saying, IMO, what would give people a faster charging experience with less reliance on the government.

 

[evguy5]

...
It would be great to be able to charge the Leaf in 5 minutes but that's assuming that Tesla gives away their technology for either free or at a very reasonable price. It also assumes that the other car companies will adopt this technology after they have spent a lot of money investing in the CHAdeMO technology. I don't see that happening. Why not try to support the technology that already works for various cars?

Because the current technology will be obsolete with the next generation of EVs.
Because the Tesla solution is more elegant and requires less hardware (one small plug, rather than two larger ones, or the huge frankenplug.

Please note, I am not saying this will happen, as it won't be free for the manufacturers. I am just saying, IMO, what would give people a faster charging experience with less reliance on the government.

I'm not sure if it will be quite obsolete. Why do you think so?

I agree that the Tesla solution is a great one and it would probably be the best solution but we can't depend on that. As you mentioned there is nothing to say that Tesla would give away this technology for free and we don't know the cost to the manufactures or the time frame involved. So we need to develop some sort of charging infrastructure independent of Tesla.

What do you think? How would you suggest we move forward?

Did a little research and found this:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079858_sae-finalizes-new-electric-car-fast-charging-combo-connector" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So basically now we have the three types in the U.S.
Tesla
Chad connecter (foreign cars)
SAE connector (american cars)

having that many types doesn't seem like the best solution. If you develop the quick charge network how do you support all of these different types?

Keep in mind I'm still learning about this stuff so you may have to correct me.

 

[planet4ever]

evguy5's argument that "someday" things will get better is true, but when that someday arrives I doubt if we will be satisfied with charging stations where we have to sit for an hour or more to be able to go the next 150 miles. I'm not sure we should spend a lot of money on technology that won't satisfy the requirement today and is likely to be obsolete tomorrow.

So what would be your solution?

The short term solution, for those of us who can't afford a Tesla, is to accept the limitations of EV range. This means either using public transportation (plane, train, bus) for longer trips, or avoiding longer trips, or renting or maintaining a second vehicle. Because my wife is over 80 years old and we do want to visit our great-grandchildren on occasion, we have chosen to keep a Prius.

My crystal ball is not good enough to tell you what the long term solution is, though I suspect it will be something we don't have right now. Practical ultracapacitors? Inductive charging from highway roadbeds? A completely different type of battery with far higher energy density? Self-driving trains of cars automatically shifted from one train to another based on destination? Who knows.

Ray

 

[hyperlexis]

evguy5's argument that "someday" things will get better is true, but when that someday arrives I doubt if we will be satisfied with charging stations where we have to sit for an hour or more to be able to go the next 150 miles. I'm not sure we should spend a lot of money on technology that won't satisfy the requirement today and is likely to be obsolete tomorrow.

So what would be your solution?

The short term solution, for those of us who can't afford a Tesla, is to accept the limitations of EV range. This means either using public transportation (plane, train, bus) for longer trips, or avoiding longer trips, or renting or maintaining a second vehicle. Because my wife is over 80 years old and we do want to visit our great-grandchildren on occasion, we have chosen to keep a Prius.

My crystal ball is not good enough to tell you what the long term solution is, though I suspect it will be something we don't have right now. Practical ultracapacitors? Inductive charging from highway roadbeds? A completely different type of battery with far higher energy density? Self-driving trains of cars automatically shifted from one train to another based on destination? Who knows.

Ray

This is all just nonsense -- Yes we now have different QC port standards. The fact is that new chargers, now, do offer multiport connectors for the SAE plug and Chademo on the same charger. Problem solved. Until one standard takes over, it will just have to be worked out with adaptors.

My Gd all this hand wringing over what amounts to a glorified electric outlet! In the overall scheme of things, in terms of government expenditures, these things are cheap and should be installed in public places and streets as commonly as parking meters. (What a great way for towns to make some extra money, too!.....). If cutting pollution and oil use is really what the government(s) want, then this is what is now needed. And "private enterprise" just ain't cutting it left to their own devises.

Eventually, sometime in the distant, distant future.... Nissan will probably start installing the SAE plug on future U.S. Leafs, for consistency sake in this country. Especially if more and more EVs use them. Tesla, assuming GM hasn't bought them by then, may keep its own private network for itself with its own small, proprietary plug.

But to say well just don't bother, take the bus, solves nothing. If BEVs hope to become viable amongst more of the general public (one-car families), EVs need the ability to take longer trips. That requires either much bigger/better batteries, and/or more QC stations. Period. Otherwise just turn out the lights and everyone buy a Prius.

 

[fastcharge]

Interesting discussion. I think the solution could be quite simple. Install chargers with two plugs. CHAdeMO and SAE Combo (aka frankenplug). Blink has said they will offer such a unit. This would cover:

Nissan
Mitsubishi
GM
BMW
Ford
Volkswagen
Tesla (if they make adapter)

A dual plug charger would be more expensive to install but then it would allow any fast charge capable EV to fast charge now and not have to wait 3 years while they battle over which plug is better. Get those installed all over the US and range anxiety goes way down for everyone which will lead to a much faster EV adoption rate.

 

[evguy5]

Interesting discussion. I think the solution could be quite simple. Install chargers with two plugs. CHAdeMO and SAE Combo (aka frankenplug). Blink has said they will offer such a unit. This would cover:

Nissan
Mitsubishi
GM
BMW
Ford
Volkswagen
Tesla (if they make adapter)

A dual plug charger would be more expensive to install but then it would allow any fast charge capable EV to fast charge now and not have to wait 3 years while they battle over which plug is better. Get those installed all over the US and range anxiety goes way down for everyone which will lead to a much faster EV adoption rate.

Sounds like a pretty great solution. It would be nice if everyone would have just decided on one standard quick charge plug a while back so that we didn't have three different types out there. I suppose that's the nature of the business.

What does everyone else think?

 

[KJD]

What does everyone else think?

I think Tesla is kicking *** on everyone else.
http://insideevs.com/washington-state-welcomes-two-new-tesla-supercharging-stations-wvideos/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With 15 Supercharging stations in US and probably one hundred Supercharging points, Tesla Motors seems to be (or soon will be) ahead of Aerovironment and ECOtality in terms of DC quick charge points

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evguy5]

What does everyone else think?

I think Tesla is kicking *** on everyone else.
http://insideevs.com/washington-state-welcomes-two-new-tesla-supercharging-stations-wvideos/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With 15 Supercharging stations in US and probably one hundred Supercharging points, Tesla Motors seems to be (or soon will be) ahead of Aerovironment and ECOtality in terms of DC quick charge points

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yep everyone else needs to step it up. That's only going to happen if people demand it though. If the companies think that people are happy with a few level 2 chargers and don't demand quick chargers then they won't do it.

I love Telsa but they aren't the only game in town.

 

[Luft]

Interesting discussion. I think the solution could be quite simple. Install chargers with two plugs. CHAdeMO and SAE Combo (aka frankenplug). Blink has said they will offer such a unit. This would cover:

Nissan
Mitsubishi
GM
BMW
Ford
Volkswagen
Tesla (if they make adapter)

A dual plug charger would be more expensive to install but then it would allow any fast charge capable EV to fast charge now and not have to wait 3 years while they battle over which plug is better. Get those installed all over the US and range anxiety goes way down for everyone which will lead to a much faster EV adoption rate.

Sounds like a pretty great solution. It would be nice if everyone would have just decided on one standard quick
charge plug a while back so that we didn't have three different types out there. I suppose that's the nature of the

business.

What does everyone else think?

Well let's not forget the real reason that GM pushed so hard for the Franken-Plug. It's main purpose is to slow the adoption of EV's. So a clear QC standard was doomed from the start.

 

[KJD]

Yep everyone else needs to step it up. That's only going to happen if people demand it though. If the companies think that people are happy with a few level 2 chargers and don't demand quick chargers then they won't do it.
I love Telsa but they aren't the only game in town.

I have spent the last 2 years talking to the local Nissan dealers about installing QC in this area. What a waste of time. These guys have no clue on how to sell EV's.

I have also talked to Rocky Mtn Power about installing QC in SLC. I thought that the local utility would see this as a great way to sell more power. Nothing could be further from the truth. They have a captive audience right now and they view EV's as a problem that will overload their decrepit grid. They could care less about selling more power, after all they make a ton of money with the monopoly they have right now. Why change?

 

[smkettner]

Ok Tesla is a bit faster but the primary advantage is the larger capacity battery in the car itself. No real magic to the charging stations. CHAdeMO would be far more viable if LEAF had a 200 mile epa rating.

 

[planet4ever]

My Gd all this hand wringing over what amounts to a glorified electric outlet! In the overall scheme of things, in terms of government expenditures, these things are cheap and should be installed in public places and streets as commonly as parking meters. (What a great way for towns to make some extra money, too!.....). If cutting pollution and oil use is really what the government(s) want, then this is what is now needed. And "private enterprise" just ain't cutting it left to their own devises.

Sorry, but that is crazy talk. The reason private enterprise "just ain't cutting it" is because you are dead wrong on costs and potential income. Yes, a Level 2 EVSE is something like a glorified electric outlet (with a number of safety mechanisms added), but you can't say that about a QC or any high power DC charger. This is a huge, complicated, and very expensive machine. Nissan thought they could build one for "only" $10,000 but they gave up. A typical unit costs $30,000 to $40,000 installed. In other words, a million dollars buys you about 30 of them, so you would be talking around 150 BILLION DOLLARS to make them as common as parking meters throughout the cities in the US.

And this doesn't cover the 100,000 to 130,000 rural miles of federally supported highways (there goes another BILLION DOLLARS at two chargers every ten miles), nor does it cover the state highways.

Ask Tony Williams about the cost of buying, installing, and maintaining one, along with the cost of the electricity it uses. It turns out the break-even point is so high that most EV owners balk at paying it.

And what do you get for all this money? A net maximum speed of no more than 40 mph in a LEAF, no matter how slow or fast you try to go. (Because the faster you travel the more times you have to stop at a QC station.)

Ray

 

[evguy5]

Ok Tesla is a bit faster but the primary advantage is the larger capacity battery in the car itself. No real magic to the charging stations. CHAdeMO would be far more viable if LEAF had a 200 mile epa rating.

Yep it's not magic. 10 kw charger and a larger battery pack sure are nice though.

I agree it would be great if the range of the Leaf was 200 miles but it's unfortunately not yet. I'm sure it will be in a few years and the same will go for the other evs out there. Infrastructure still needs to get set up so that anyone no matter what their potential range or type of ev it is is can take advantage of it. It's simple, you have to two plugs on the station. 1 for chad connector and 1 for SAE connector that way any car can connected. Tesla already has their own stations that their owners could use or they develop an adaptor to use these two types.

thoughts?

On a positive note, it looks like the petition I started is seeing some more people sign it. Only 38 now but it was 23 last night so thats quite a lot over night.

 

[evguy5]

Yep everyone else needs to step it up. That's only going to happen if people demand it though. If the companies think that people are happy with a few level 2 chargers and don't demand quick chargers then they won't do it.
I love Telsa but they aren't the only game in town.

I have spent the last 2 years talking to the local Nissan dealers about installing QC in this area. What a waste of time. These guys have no clue on how to sell EV's.

I have also talked to Rocky Mtn Power about installing QC in SLC. I thought that the local utility would see this as a great way to sell more power. Nothing could be further from the truth. They have a captive audience right now and they view EV's as a problem that will overload their decrepit grid. They could care less about selling more power, after all they make a ton of money with the monopoly they have right now. Why change?

Perhaps you were simply starting to the conversation too early with the Nissan dealers? I completely agree that they don't know how to sell EVs. Most the sales people that i've spoken to hardly know how to turn it on let alone know anything about how it's supposed to charge and the charging methods.

This is again where we all have to get together and start telling these companies what we want. If it's one person telling them a charging station is a good idea they probably won't listen but if it's a large group demanding it then they just might. Companies aren't going to do anything to really help the customer they will only do it if it makes good business sense.