My Volt is roasting my Leaf

[apvbguy]

Like another poster noted the best way to cool that garage is to install a large exhaust fan in the roof, heat rises, give it a hand and vent it right out. If your part of FLA is anything like mine is you'll have a lot of critters moving in if you keep your garage door open.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Guess there's always "unintended consequences" to every design. I can't help but think about all the EXTRA energy the TMS draws/uses just to do it's job.

Just one of the joys of living in a hot-summer climate. Until I got solar panels, I used to cringe at the nearly $300/month electric bills I got just to keep my home A/C running. Of course, going without A/C is not an option in South Florida, and based on my experience with the LEAF, I'd say going without a TMS on a car's battery is not an option in South Florida, either.

Bummer about losing a bar. Is that typical of leafs down there? S Florida isn't really that hot, mostly humid. The temperature bothers the battery not the humidity. It gets much hotter up north but only for short periods of time.

 

[siai]

This is the catch 22 of a TMS. I live in central Florida and have air-conditioning in the garage. I have owned two vehicles with TMS. The first was a S10E with first generation NiMH batteries that really needed active cooling. There was no way that the S10E could be charged in a closed garage---even one that was air-conditioned. The refrigerated system pumped out so much heat that it overwhelmed the garage A/C system. My next vehicle was a Rav4-EV with air cooled batteries. That vehicle could be charged in the same closed garage without overwhelming the A/C. I now have a LEAF and a I-Miev in the same garage and never have any problem even with both vehicles charging at the same time. The temps here in central Florida aren't as bad as Phoenix, for example, but we do see a lot of mid 90's in the summer. Another 10 or 20 degrees in a hot garage with another vehicle creating extra heat (i.e. Volt or ICE) could be slowly killing the LEAF.

 

[nosuchthing]

I've been leaving the garage door cracked. So it gets about 6 inches on the bottom and 6 inches on the top that allows some air to circulate. I'm not sure how much it helps...

...but it most certainly helps the racoons to help themselves to anything they can scour and feast on in your garage.

 

[Weatherman]

Just one of the joys of living in a hot-summer climate. Until I got solar panels, I used to cringe at the nearly $300/month electric bills I got just to keep my home A/C running. Of course, going without A/C is not an option in South Florida, and based on my experience with the LEAF, I'd say going without a TMS on a car's battery is not an option in South Florida, either.

Bummer about losing a bar. Is that typical of leafs down there? S Florida isn't really that hot, mostly humid. The temperature bothers the battery not the humidity. It gets much hotter up north but only for short periods of time.

The problem for heat-sensitive things in the southern part of the state is not so much that it gets real hot, but that it never really cools off, even during the winter months. With the exception of brief cool spells, temperatures remain in the 70s and 80s all winter. It's not unusual for it to get up to 90 in February.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

The problem for heat-sensitive things in the southern part of the state is not so much that it gets real hot, but that it never really cools off, even during the winter months. With the exception of brief cool spells, temperatures remain in the 70s and 80s all winter. It's not unusual for it to get up to 90 in February.

True. That is unique to S FL.
I had thought (hoped) that temps in the 80s and even 90s wouldnt hurt the battery that bad. OTOH, I would think parking on hot asphalt in the sun w the windows closed could generate some very high temps. We try to park in the shade way up north here. Had considered tinting the windows, but leaving them cracked open has been working well for us so far.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Hot in the garage again tonight. The cord will reach the leaf on the driveway but only reaches the volt in the garage so the leaf will enjoy the cooler night air until I figure something out.

Captain Obvious notes that heat rises, but the header over the doors and window makes a big upside down basin to catch the hot air even when you open things up. It's like a dead man out tonight not the slightest breeze. You could feel the heat pouring out the fender wells on the volt.

Maybe an exhaust fan in the garage ceiling... I wonder if that would be considered safe, there are some codes about fireproofing in garages. More likely a second evse that would reach the volt on the driveway.

 

[nosuchthing]

Oh, S FLorida? Never mind about the raccoons. Burmese pythons got rid of them all, according to the news. Now, about those pythons... :mrgreen:

 

[Pipcecil]

or to help cool the garage and get double use - install a heat pump water heater (many are now in the garage). It gets the advantage of the additional heat, making it more efficient, while outputting colder air. Win-win

 

[dgpcolorado]

Guess there's always "unintended consequences" to every design. I can't help but think about all the EXTRA energy the TMS draws/uses just to do it's job.

Yes. Still, better that than a cooked battery!

 

[TomT]

+1!

Guess there's always "unintended consequences" to every design. I can't help but think about all the EXTRA energy the TMS draws/uses just to do it's job.

Yes. Still, better that than a cooked battery!

 

[edatoakrun]

+1!

Guess there's always "unintended consequences" to every design. I can't help but think about all the EXTRA energy the TMS draws/uses just to do it's job.

Yes. Still, better that than a cooked battery!

The Volt TMS is a very complicated design, with many parts that should be expected to have shorter life with heavy use, and that may have very high repair/replacement costs over time.

So IMO, the actual battery life-cycle cost to the owner of A LEAF without TMS, is likely to be lower than the life cycle cost of the Volt battery including the TMS and of the extra energy it requires.

And perhaps the LEAF's cost advantage will actually be greatest in very hot climates.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I believe the Volt's TMS (or at least parts of it) is only warrantied for 3 years/36,000 miles.

It's a very complicated design, with many parts that should be expected to have shorter life with heavy use, and that may have very high repair/replacement costs over time.

So IMO, the actual battery life-cycle cost to the owner of A LEAF without TMS, is likely to be lower than the life cycle cost of the Volt battery including the TMS and of the extra energy it requires.

And perhaps the LEAF's cost advantage will actually be greatest in very hot climates.

I'm inclined to agree with Nissan that no TMS is the way to go, assuming that they do come up with a thermally stable battery chemistry someday.

In the meantime, however, the complexities and cost of a TMS seem likely to be cheaper than buying a new battery every few years in hot climates.

 

[LEAFfan]

Good point Ed!

 

[Weatherman]

I know this debate is going to go on forever between those who live in mild climates and think the LEAF's design is superior and those who live in hot climates and think the Volt's design is superior.

But, seriously? Whatever happens in the long run is irrelevant to someone who has seen their already-limited driving range in their LEAF drop 15% or more in less than a year and wonder whether the car is even going to be even meet their most modest needs through the remainder of their three-year lease.

And pity the poor hot-climate person who bought their car and financed it and is looking at high, monthly payments for the foreseeable future along with dismal trade in value.

Personally, I consider buying, then leasing, a LEAF to have been a couple of the most expensive errors in judgment I've made in my life. It's too bad, since, except for the battery, I, actually, like the car a lot.

 

[TomT]

I completely disagree. It is actually a fairly robust and simplistic system. I expect it to be working long after my Leaf battery has crapped out! Likewise, the Volt battery versus the Leaf battery.

The Volt TMS is a very complicated design, with many parts that should be expected to have shorter life with heavy use, and that may have very high repair/replacement costs over time.

So IMO, the actual battery life-cycle cost to the owner of A LEAF without TMS, is likely to be lower than the life cycle cost of the Volt battery including the TMS and of the extra energy it requires.

And perhaps the LEAF's cost advantage will actually be greatest in very hot climates.

 

[TomT]

That is a very big assumption with absolutely no real indication that such a breakthrough is anywhere nearby... In the meantime, Leaf batteries continue to take it on the chin!

I'm inclined to agree with Nissan that no TMS is the way to go, assuming that they do come up with a thermally stable battery chemistry someday.

 

[dgpcolorado]

That is a very big assumption with absolutely no real indication that such a breakthrough is anywhere nearby... In the meantime, Leaf batteries continue to take it on the chin!

I'm inclined to agree with Nissan that no TMS is the way to go, assuming that they do come up with a thermally stable battery chemistry someday.

If you are correct that a thermally stable chemistry isn't going to happen for some time to come, if ever, then a LEAF without TMS makes no sense in a hot climate.

At this point all we can do is wait and see how things develop. You leased, I bought; I am at more risk than you are with the current generation LEAF. Nevertheless, I remain hopeful that a future LEAF will have this problem solved, one way or another. And you can enjoy driving your Bluestar!

 

[Rat]

This is an interesting thread on an issue that I hadn't thought about before. Here in northern California it just isn't an issue, at least near the coast. It always cools at least into the 60s at night here and it's not unusual for it to drop into the 50s or even high 40s overnight right at the coast when it's 100 degrees inland midday. Our daytime temperatures where I live lately have been in the high 70s and our cat, who is kept in the garage overnight so he won't jump on the bed and wake us, still climbs up into the garage attic where it's warmer, so it obviously cools off plenty in the garage. I'm not trying to gloat. I just think it interesting to note how important climate is when considering the Leaf or other EVs. Of course, the long-term effect of the heat on battery life just isn't really known yet.

 

[TomT]

Other than the Leaf, every other current EV has a TMS so it is only really relevant to the Leaf... Maybe they should make TMS an option so folks like you who don't need it can opt out and other folks who do can opt in... Of course, if you ever plan to do much QCing, then you need it regardless of where you live...

I just think it interesting to note how important climate is when considering the Leaf or other EVs. Of course, the long-term effect of the heat on battery life just isn't really known yet.