Looking for home central A/C recommendations

[Boomer23]

I have some bids for a new install of a 5 ton central air unit for our two story, 2,400 sf house in coastal Southern California. The house is over 40 years old, has a gas furnace and has never had A/C installed before. We have a 5 kW solar PV rooftop and with TOU rates, even with car charging, we should have about $200 or more to spend on A/C power use before we owe any electric bill for the year.

We have lived in the home for 34 years and haven't felt the need for A/C until the last three summers. We are home a lot during the daytimes, but we don't expect to cool the house below 78 degrees, and probably start cooling in the afternoons.

I'm looking for recommendations from anyone who has experience with these units installed in the last few years in this or a similar climate.

Each of the bids is for a 13 SEER, 5 ton unit, one each from Trane, Goodman and Maytag. Bids range from $4,400 to $5,900 installed.

The Maytag has a longer warranty at 12 years vs the 10 years for the others, and is reported to be a much quieter operating compressor/condenser. From what I've read online, Goodman is pretty much entry level stuff and is only recently making decent products after some years of poor performance. I haven't read much either way about Trane units at this SEER level. I'm inclined to lean towards to Maytag. Are there other products that you would recommend we look at?

Also, given that we're interested in saving energy as a family policy, is it worth paying a couple thousand more for higher SEER ratings, and is 16 SEER a reasonable target for this region? Or since we are only about 10 miles from the coast and don't intend to cool below 78 degrees, should we just go with a 13 SEER unit.

I know that's a lot of questions, but any thoughts from anyone who has experience with similar systems would be appreciated.

 

[TonyWilliams]

We have two 4 ton pumps, and I'm considering replacing them with one 5 ton Lennox 16-17 SEER.

The quote was $12,000. Ouch. The electric savings would be about half. I can actually replace two 50 amp breakers with one 40 amp.

I need to get electric use under control in order to add a second EV with a significant size charger demand.

Or pay huge bucks to swap the 200 amp utility service to 400 amps.

 

[epic]

Ok--this is my industry.maytag sucks --2nd tier junk.amana & goodman are essentialy the same product...both made by goodman manufacturing.Go 16 seer --use bryant or carrier (they are the same units also )Trane is very good ,also.They have a lot of trouble getting to 16 seer with a 5 ton .If you do not like it so cold I would consider a 4 ton . there are load calculations that can be done.The unit also removes humidity & it must run to do that . 5 ton is preety big for 2400 sq ft. If your stuff is real leaky --fix that . that is cheaper & a fast pay back.

 

[bryan38401]

I am also in this biz, I sell nutone which is made by nordyne all parts are simple and easy to get WHEN IT BREAKS 15 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.I wont bash the others you will always have good and bad in any brand.stick with the 13 seer less complicated.over a 15 year life span just not worth the pay back.when I replaced mine I took the differance in the price and installed heat pump hot water heater to.drop my electric bill in half just in time for my LEAF!!!!

 

[ksnogas2112]

I don't know about your area but around here there are gov't rebates but if memory serves you need to be in the 16+ seer rate. Our 14 didn't rate but that was all I could afford at the time (had to get new furnace at same time $15k total).

 

[lipower]

Can you do geothermal? There are some really nice tax credits with that.

 

[dhanson865]

I'm using a 3 ton in TN with about 2200 sq ft and I cool to 75F with external temps as high as 100F. If you are only cooling to 78F you can easily go down to a lower tonnage espcecially if you don't see temps above 90F.

I have a unit with a 20 SEER nameplate but it only run about 18 or 19 seer at 3 tons (the seer varies depending on the tonnage and the air handler it's paired with). FWIW my system is a "split system" meaning there is an outdoor unit and a indoor air handler + the duct work.

Keep in mind I pay less than 10 cents per kwh night or day, I expect your cost is higher so you should be looking for higher effeciency to offset your costs.

Oh and my system does heat and air. I had the gas furnace taken out and put in a heat pump to do the hot and cold.

Make sure your house is thouroughly insulated (think R40 - R50 in the attic)

 

[Stanton]

It's "hard to stop a Train" (2 of them actually)...and I've only had one maintenance call in over 5 years.

 

[TomT]

I'd stick with Trane or Carrier. The problem with the very high SEER units is that there are much higher installation and maintenance demands to actually reach that level of SEER. I'd go with the lowest level of SEER that meets your rebate requirements in your area and weigh the added cost against the amount of rebate offered. Another consideration is that the very high SEER units have proven to be less reliable... Remember that the amount of operational savings (and the cost) going from, say, a 12 to a 14 SEER is higher than going from, say, a 14 to a 16... You reach the point of diminishing returns as you go up the scale.

 

[DaveEV]

Ok--this is my industry.maytag sucks --2nd tier junk.amana & goodman are essentialy the same product...both made by goodman manufacturing.Go 16 seer --use bryant or carrier (they are the same units also )Trane is very good ,also.They have a lot of trouble getting to 16 seer with a 5 ton .If you do not like it so cold I would consider a 4 ton . there are load calculations that can be done.The unit also removes humidity & it must run to do that . 5 ton is preety big for 2400 sq ft. If your stuff is real leaky --fix that . that is cheaper & a fast pay back.

This is good general advice. Most HVAC shops will oversize the equipment because it can reduce service calls (people complain when it takes too long to cool off a house when they should have used the programmable thermostat or just waited) - but this leads to issues with humidity (short cycle times don't remove much humidity) which means you must run the AC colder to feel the same comfort level. Also, most existing ductwork is already marginal if it wasn't designed properly from the start - and trying to shove more air through small ducts increases noise and reduces efficiency.

And as epic says - if your house is leaky causing you to need more HVAC, you should fix those leaks regardless.

I had a Trane 3-ton 2-stage heat-pump w/high efficiency furnace installed in my 2000 sq/ft house a few years ago to replace the 35 yo gas furnace. It was expensive (around $12k - about half for the high efficiency furnace, another half for the heat-pump) but the system is very efficient and works well. Almost all the quotes I got wanted to put in a 4-ton system without any duct work. In reality, even the 3-ton system is pushing too much air through my ducts under full power - I feel like I could have gone with a single-stage 2-ton system at the expense of the system not being able to hit target temps on the hottest days - at least for me that's not a big deal as I have the temp set pretty high most of the time when running the A/C anyway, it's the humidity reduction that really makes it feel comfortable. The rest of the time the system could have been simpler and less expensive (although the single-stage setup I was quoted for wasn't all that much cheaper).

The other drawback is that to maintain the 10-year warranty you must have regular maintenance from a Trane dealer. For me, this eats up all the money saved on utility bills by the efficient equipment.

BTW - I did a dual-fuel system so that I could have the flexibility of heating on either gas or electricity. The heat-pump is very efficient in our mild California winters, but from a cost-effectiveness perspective, you don't really want to use it unless your incremental electricity rate is below 20c/kWh or so. Works great if you have a good sized PV system tilted towards the south, but I reduce heat-pump use in favor of the furnace in Dec/Jan to avoid getting into the top-tier expensive electricity.

 

[Boomer23]

Ok--this is my industry.maytag sucks --2nd tier junk.amana & goodman are essentialy the same product...both made by goodman manufacturing.Go 16 seer --use bryant or carrier (they are the same units also )Trane is very good ,also.They have a lot of trouble getting to 16 seer with a 5 ton .If you do not like it so cold I would consider a 4 ton . there are load calculations that can be done.The unit also removes humidity & it must run to do that . 5 ton is preety big for 2400 sq ft. If your stuff is real leaky --fix that . that is cheaper & a fast pay back.

So out of my three bids, you would choose the Trane? They bid a 13 SEER unit at $4,800 or a 15 SEER unit at $5,800. Those are 5 ton units. I could save some money getting a 4 ton unit, I guess. This is for a split system with the compressor outdoors with about 50 feet of line run to the furnace. Includes running new control wires to the existing digital thermostat, but doesn't include any work on the ducts.

What do you think about these prices?

 

[Boomer23]

Everyone, thanks for your thoughts and comments, much appreciated.

I don't know anything about geothermal, but I haven't heard of anyone around here doing that.

 

[mig]

Everyone, thanks for your thoughts and comments, much appreciated.

I don't know anything about geothermal, but I haven't heard of anyone around here doing that.

I can highly recommend Trane. I have a 15 SEER unit and wished I would have gotten a 2 stage 16 SEER unit.
I think in my situation I would have used the low stage quite a bit. Instead I get a lot of cycling.
Your pricing is in line with mine.

However, like others have said MAKE SURE they are not lazy and they do a load calculation. It does sound
like they are oversizing the unit. Also make sure your blower can handle the tonnage of the AC. First company
wanted to sell us a 4 ton unit and our furnace blower can only handle 3 ton! (Which was plenty big enough btw)

 

[leafkabob]

Boomer have you considered the "mini-splits?" I think Mitsubishi is one of the more popular brands. They are primarily used as single room units with no ducting required. If your need for AC isn't all that great, cooling a few rooms in the house may be enough to keep it comfortable. I have a friend in northern Arizona whose climate doesn't require AC, but every summer he always wished he had some cooling. Last summer he installed a couple of the Mitsubishi mini-splits and is very happy so far. Here is a link to the Mitsubishi web site: http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/en/consumer/product-solutions/product-showcase

By the way, I have a Goodman and a Trane on my house and I am happy with both, but love the Trane (also more expensive). I think the quality of the installation is very important also. And don't forget to consider noise. My Goodman is louder and closer to my bedroom. :evil:

 

[DaveEV]

I don't know anything about geothermal, but I haven't heard of anyone around here doing that.

Way too expensive if you're looking to stay in the $5k ballpark. Geothermal runs $30k. Only worth it in climates where you have lots of temperature extremes. In mild California weather not far from the coast, air-source heat-pumps are way more cost effective and about as efficient.

I can highly recommend Trane. I have a 15 SEER unit and wished I would have gotten a 2 stage 16 SEER unit.
I think in my situation I would have used the low stage quite a bit. Instead I get a lot of cycling.

2 stage units do have their benefits - they are much better at lowering humidity than a single-stage unit.

However, like others have said MAKE SURE they are not lazy and they do a load calculation. It does sound
like they are oversizing the unit. Also make sure your blower can handle the tonnage of the AC. First company
wanted to sell us a 4 ton unit and our furnace blower can only handle 3 ton! (Which was plenty big enough btw)

+1

Boomer have you considered the "mini-splits?" I think Mitsubishi is one of the more popular brands. They are primarily used as single room units with no ducting required. If your need for AC isn't all that great, cooling a few rooms in the house may be enough to keep it comfortable. I have a friend in northern Arizona whose climate doesn't require AC, but every summer he always wished he had some cooling. Last summer he installed a couple of the Mitsubishi mini-splits and is very happy so far. Here is a link to the Mitsubishi web site: http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/en/consumer/product-solutions/product-showcase

By the way, I have a Goodman and a Trane on my house and I am happy with both, but love the Trane (also more expensive). I think the quality of the installation is very important also. And don't forget to consider noise. My Goodman is louder and closer to my bedroom. :evil:

More good advice here. Mini-splits also tend to be very quiet and very efficient.

Regarding noise - even my high $$$ Trane is pretty noisy in the side-yard that it's located in. Noisier than I expected it would be. Doesn't help that it's sitting on concrete next to a stucco wall and 6 ft from a fence which bounces a lot of the noise back. Luckily it's on the wall of my garage and my neighbors garage.

I'm am amazed at all the quality HVAC advice here - apparently EV enthusiasts also have done their HVAC homework!

 

[dhanson865]

I'm am amazed at all the quality HVAC advice here - apparently EV enthusiasts also have done their HVAC homework!

If you can cut your home energy bill in half with 3 simple changes why not do it?

1. Put more insulation in the attic (R40 or more) assuming you have an attic
2. get rid of gas heat if you have it and don't live in a snowy area
3. get the most efficient heat pump you can afford within your budget.

Getting rid of gas heat doesn't apply in some climates but if you life in the cold part of the world you'll not be worrying much about your AC either.

When I bought this house the winter and summer bills were in the $300 per month range for gas heat and air conditioning. I put in insulation in the attic and ripped out the gas heat and an old 8 to 12 SEER AC unit and put in a 18 to 20 SEER heat pump. Now my summer AC bill never exceeds $100, and my heat at the worst is in the $150 range. All in all I'm saving something like $1000 per year with the new unit and I no longer have to deal with the gas bill (water heater and kitchen appliances are electric as well).

And if you live in the part of the country where solar panels are a strong possibility it makes sense to move your heating needs off other fuel sources and onto the electric grid. Then as solar panel prices drop you eventually get enough panels to cover your heating and air needs.

 

[TomT]

We have a two year old Carrier with their silent package. It is a 15 SEER Unit and is impressively quiet.

Regarding noise - even my high $$$ Trane is pretty noisy in the side-yard that it's located in.

 

[lukati]

If you can cut your home energy bill in half with 3 simple changes why not do it?

1. Put more insulation in the attic (R40 or more) assuming you have an attic
2. get rid of gas heat if you have it and don't live in a snowy area
3. get the most efficient heat pump you can afford within your budget.

I think the single most important and usually cheapest and most effective strategy is to seal the building envelope. I would suggest to have the airtightness of your home measured by a blower door test.
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/blower-door-tests" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Renting a thermal camera can also be very helpful. Fixing air leaks is usually not too difficult if you know where they are (look for dark areas in your insulation!). A couple cans of expandable foam and a few pink foam boards can do wonders. Adding insulation alone is usually not very effective if you do not first stop the air leaks.
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/air-sealing-your-home" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/guides-and-manuals/gm-attic-air-sealing-guide/view?topic=resources/retrofits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[mig]

[
I think the single most important and usually cheapest and most effective strategy is to seal the building envelope. I would suggest to have the airtightness of your home measured by a blower door test.
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/blower-door-tests" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Renting a thermal camera can also be very helpful. Fixing air leaks is usually not too difficult if you know where they are (look for dark areas in your insulation!). A couple cans of expandable foam and a few pink foam boards can do wonders. Adding insulation alone is usually not very effective if you do not first stop the air leaks.
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/air-sealing-your-home" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/guides-and-manuals/gm-attic-air-sealing-guide/view?topic=resources/retrofits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great advice. We used the "Energy Upgrade California" program to do this work and got a $4000 rebate.
Highly recommended. Your rebate is based on your projected gas/electricity savings, so in an older home
you are more than likely to get the full rebate.

https://energyupgradeca.org/overview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TimLee]

+1 Determine cost effectiveness of improving the building envelope first, before anything else.
I'm a Mechanical Engineer, with Professional Engineer certification, and I am truly amazed by the degree of incompetence in the HVAC industry.
HVAC involves both temperature control, and humidity control.
Having owned two homes in TN, with a single speed 5 ton air conditioning system that both of the builders bought as the "low cost option", I can personally attest that in some locations such as TN it is an incompetent choice. It is downright incompetent to install single speed 5 ton AC units in all of Tennessee. In Tennesse, for four to six months out of the year most of what you need is to remove humidity. You cannot do that well or efficiently with a single speed 5 ton system.
The small modular split systems such as used by Volkswagen in their new factory are a much better choice. They have a lot of turn down, and operate in heat pump mode to very low <0 F temperatures.
You need to have a professional determine what you need.
A large percentage of the HVAC installation companies honestly do not really understand how to design the system to achieve a high % of effectiveness and a high % of efficiency.