LEAF's 12V battery behaviors - and why they go bad

[arnis]

Last quote is worthless. Very short and missing sources, low information density.
Battery tech requires more than just average Joe. I'm not able to discuss with you if you are not
taking into account new information. Please read more. Don't read opinions nor rules of thumb.

This has happened to the 12V batteries in MANY (most?) LEAFs within the course of a couple or a few years.

DATA, Data. Let's make a survey. It won't be totally balanced as many forum users use OBD adapter. Or maybe we should
also have that as an answer.


Have you ever ran out of 12V battery charge:
No (just write No, more comments not necessary)
Yes (if yes mention did you
had OBD adapter plugged in,
left for long time,
car is rarely driven (less than 3x per week)
was the battery replaced,
happened many times,
how many years after purchase

At least 100 answers as a minimum. Then we can at least estimate.
And why should it be filtered only to US? Multiple climate models there.

 

[Randy]

My own personal experience:

2011 SL model with small solar panel (delivered early January 2011, car almost 6 years old now)
Charge every evening to 100% at Level 2 (charge session runs 2-3 hours nightly)
3 capacity bars down, 46,000 miles total
Replaced 12v battery with similar lead-acid battery at 4 years of age
Have never used battery tender
On 3 occasions have left car unplugged and undriven for 6 weeks; in all 3 cases, car started fine upon return
Have never had 12v battery go dead
Have never had to jump start the car
No other 12v battery issues to speak of...

 

[LeftieBiker]

My own personal experience:

2011 SL model with small solar panel (delivered early January 2011, car almost 6 years old now)
Charge every evening to 100% at Level 2 (charge session runs 2-3 hours nightly)
3 capacity bars down, 46,000 miles total
Replaced 12v battery with similar lead-acid battery at 4 years of age
Have never used battery tender
On 3 occasions have left car unplugged and undriven for 6 weeks; in all 3 cases, car started fine upon return
Have never had 12v battery go dead
Have never had to jump start the car
No other 12v battery issues to speak of...

Was the car often parked so that the solar panel got sun? They are tiny-output panels, but there is evidence that they help keep the accessory battery charged when they get a lot of sun. Also, do you leave the car plugged in but not charging regularly?

 

[GerryAZ]

My experience: 80,000 miles total so far driven in two Leafs and never used external charger on 12V battery. I usually park in shade so there is very little benefit from the miniature solar panel. I frequently park in covered parking at office or airport for up to 3 weeks at a time without plugging in. I always charge to 100% (off peak at night) and usually discharge to LBW or lower during the day.

One instance of completely dead 12V battery (2011 Leaf about 28 months old) after inadvertently leaving ELM device plugged into OBDII port and Kyocera Event running Leaf Spy Pro on the passenger seat during a 6-day out of town trip. I jumped the Leaf from my office vehicle using some alligator clip test leads since I did not have jumper cables when I returned on a weekend. Charging voltage and current stayed high for 40-minute drive home. I ran several errands that evening without incident after retrieving a booster battery from my garage (just in case, but did not need to use it). That deep discharge took its toll and the original 12V battery failed about a month later. Failure occurred when the Leaf systems did not properly start up (or boot up) after being parked in dark parking garage for a few hours (lights were in automatic so they were on for the normal timeout period). I turned the car off and on several times and all of the Leaf's systems finally booted normally after about 5 or 6 attempts so I could drive home. I was not surprised that the original battery failed at 29 months since 2 or 2-1/2 years is normal for OEM flooded cell batteries in cars in Phoenix. I purchased a deep cycle AGM (yellow top Optima) the next day. With its low internal resistance and ability to absorb high charging current, the Optima worked well with charging algorithm of the DC-DC converter until the car met its demise 14 months later. The resting voltage (after LEAF systems sleep) was about 12.7 the last time I checked.

I have never checked the electrolyte level, but the original battery is still doing OK in the 2015. The resting voltage ranged between 12.6 and 12.7 when I checked it in June (16 months of use). I will replace it with a yellow top Optima as soon as it shows any weakness.

Gerry

 

[Randy]

My own personal experience:

2011 SL model with small solar panel (delivered early January 2011, car almost 6 years old now)
Charge every evening to 100% at Level 2 (charge session runs 2-3 hours nightly)
3 capacity bars down, 46,000 miles total
Replaced 12v battery with similar lead-acid battery at 4 years of age
Have never used battery tender
On 3 occasions have left car unplugged and undriven for 6 weeks; in all 3 cases, car started fine upon return
Have never had 12v battery go dead
Have never had to jump start the car
No other 12v battery issues to speak of...

Was the car often parked so that the solar panel got sun? They are tiny-output panels, but there is evidence that they help keep the accessory battery charged when they get a lot of sun. Also, do you leave the car plugged in but not charging regularly?

In the daytime at work 5 days per week, the car gets direct sun on the solar panel.
At home, I plug the car in for the nightly charge at about 6-7pm and the timer kicks off the charge session at midnight when the rates are lowest.

 

[powersurge]

I am kind of saddened that Leaf owners are arguing the scientific intricacies of the "12 volt battery", which is not even a part of the Leaf. The 12 volt battery is just a consumable, like tires and brakes...

The Leaf is just like any car on the road, and any extra safeguards you wish to add (like solar charging or battery tender) will extend the life of the battery. When it dies, then change it. Period, why attempt to do a CSI on your 12v battery? God, we should be a happy community of EV pioneers here....

 

[JimSouCal]

I am kind of saddened that Leaf owners are arguing the scientific intricacies of the "12 volt battery", which is not even a part of the Leaf.

I'm not and I disagree. When my 12V battery was depleted, knowledge got me out of the bind, and saved me from a panic that my LEAF was computer toast. When it comes time to replace the 12V I will be informed about what options exist... For that matter, what is very debatable is: the LEAF is, or is not, like just any other car on the road... The 12V system in the LEAF has a very different set of mandates as compared to an ICE care, no cold cranking being one of them. Just my opinion. Hope you can find it okay that mine differs... And to be a contrarian to myself, the LEAF in many ways is just like another car on the road... No offense intended, but felt compelled to share my alternative view...

 

[RockyNv]

I see the same issues experienced by drivers of ICE cars that are seldom used so to me it does not appear limited to the Leaf. If a car is seldom used and never driven enough to keep the 12 volt battery charged then you will have trouble regardless of whether its ICE or Electrically fueled.

I use my Leaf as a daily driver so I do not expect to have issues aside from those typical to the climate I live in which is hot and humid so I will be regularly checking the electrolyte levels in the 12 volt battery and topping off the fluid level with distilled water when required.

If I end up changing my usage so that the Leaf sits unused for extended periods of time then I will permanently install a float charger wiring harness to maintain the 12 volt battery which is SOP on an ICE powered car too along with a motorcycle, ATV or lawn mower.

 

[DaveEV]

Last quote is worthless. Very short and missing sources, low information density.
Battery tech requires more than just average Joe. I'm not able to discuss with you if you are not
taking into account new information. Please read more. Don't read opinions nor rules of thumb.

Arnis, if you are going to make these types of accusations about Reg who clearly does plenty of reading and has collected his own data to back up his theories, you are welcome to go back on the moderated poster list. Consider this a warning.

If you wish to argue, please provide your own facts showing that your LEAF does in fact charge your LEAF's 12V battery properly.

 

[powersurge]

I am kind of saddened that Leaf owners are arguing the scientific intricacies of the "12 volt battery", which is not even a part of the Leaf.

I'm not and I disagree. When my 12V battery was depleted, knowledge got me out of the bind, and saved me from a panic that my LEAF was computer toast. When it comes time to replace the 12V I will be informed about what options exist... For that matter, what is very debatable is: the LEAF is, or is not, like just any other car on the road... The 12V system in the LEAF has a very different set of mandates as compared to an ICE care, no cold cranking being one of them. Just my opinion. Hope you can find it okay that mine differs... And to be a contrarian to myself, the LEAF in many ways is just like another car on the road... No offense intended, but felt compelled to share my alternative view...

Why did you jump into this? I was referring to some other members... Second, I really don't care about your opinion either way, you are free to express your views.. That is what this site is for. However, you do not have to "disagree" with me personally, and hope that I "take no offense". I suggest that if I, or anyone else makes a post which you do not agree with, then just say... "I think that it may also be..." and let everyone who reads make their own conclusions.

I have been servicing cars for 40 years, and I have found that too many users here get into disputes over tires, mechanics, or things like the "proper battery charging algorithm". Many people forget that the battery is just a box with electricity. Keep it charged (or topped off), and it will last longer. If the 12v battery dies, yes, the Leaf will not run (like any car). Put in a new battery, and it will run... For most of us, that is all that we need to know..

 

[arnis]

Last quote is worthless. Very short and missing sources, low information density.
Battery tech requires more than just average Joe. I'm not able to discuss with you if you are not
taking into account new information. Please read more. Don't read opinions nor rules of thumb.

Arnis, if you are going to make these types of accusations about Reg who clearly does plenty of reading and has collected his own data to back up his theories, you are welcome to go back on the moderated poster list. Consider this a warning.

If you wish to argue, please provide your own facts showing that your LEAF does in fact charge your LEAF's 12V battery properly.

Problems from sulfation occur when the sulfate forms a hard crystalline shell that isn't dissolved during charging. Over time, the sulfate crystals grow to cover most of the surface area of the lead plates, reducing capacity. Eventually, the sulfate crystals expand and crack the plates, destroying the battery.

Before complete sulfation occurs, the battery becomes less efficient and is able to hold less charge. The capacity of the battery is reduced to a non-useful level, and the battery is discarded before it is mechanically destroyed.

This is not Reg. It's a quote from opensourceecology.org. This article has missing sources. AND IS controversial to most other materials I worked with. Like:



https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjp152QwenPAhWlHJoKHRQuBRAQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Forbit.dtu.dk%2Ffiles%2F7710966%2Fris_r_1515.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHnI7wzPd-4doWwwTq03fDzGN3niQ&sig2=vS9wvq5faWJOWjEqgEYzdg

https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwixtvamwenPAhWIKJoKHeQ2B8oQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fir.canterbury.ac.nz%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F10092%2F5594%2Fhunter_thesis.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEFadA4u_Mp5tbXIPjoFDlzuBtA2w&sig2=KDc9N7Sqgyf64Pd9RLKDzQ

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223440372_Failure_mechanisms_in_valve_regulated_leadacid_batteries_for_cyclic_applications

https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiGud64wunPAhVkIJoKHf7zCMoQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yuasabatteries.com%2Fpdfs%2FTechManual_2014.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF75YKsPUzRm0hFqMGRQ_m9ex_uEg&sig2=wyhqdmKC0en6ZeNsyulv5w

https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjUz575wunPAhVlQJoKHcwcABUQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.power-thru.com%2Fdocuments%2FThe%2520Truth%2520About%2520Batteries%2520-%2520POWERTHRU%2520White%2520Paper.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFeQ0iivXUB1XF7beK1c7XAeqo0gQ&sig2=GU8dWq0wcPhNK5waKnQrpg&cad=rja

https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwinoMejw-nPAhUCApoKHbyaCQsQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.otherpower.com%2Fimages%2Fscimages%2F7427%2FLead_Acid_Battery_Efficiency.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEfHZ9mbG6vJEl2dlCil0JFS_G7Uw&sig2=zvy7NYITaj-X9KpbMsplBA&bvm=bv.136499718,d.bGs

https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj9q-O2w-nPAhXJYZoKHYNQBcwQFggZMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.power-sonic.com%2Fimages%2Fpowersonic%2Ftechnical%2F1277751263_20100627-TechManual-Lo.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEvGBEmiU7kbXy7qTc4DC7DUI6Gqw&sig2=uMRiAnzc4RZmPz-2qrSQlw&bvm=bv.136499718,d.bGs

https://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjNlJvbw-nPAhWrFZoKHbajD8sQFggZMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdtechno.com%2Fpdf%2Fref%2F41_2128_0212.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHhkiASHJ0Rc8py1MWVwLmBb0sWKw&sig2=3OSnGKWymES-3QT_00Ch6g&bvm=bv.136499718,d.bGs

who clearly does plenty of reading and has collected his own data to back up his theories

Of course he did a lot of reading to back up his theories. I would like to familiarize with those materials too if I may.

This has happened to the 12V batteries in MANY (most?) LEAFs within the course of a couple or a few years.

English word "most" should mean "majority" I believe. and couple should mean "two". I've not seen any data of that being
even remotely true. Few just mentioned their experience: RockyNv, Randy and GerryAZ
As we can see, Leaf can be left for weeks and it will not die if OBD device is not plugged in.

So anyway. Materials I linked. None of those is research about Leaf charger. But we all here now know how Leaf charger works.
And the first post in this topic has video that demonstrates that. And it is the same for me.
Reg is convinced, that the way how Leaf treats 12V battery is not acceptable. He is convinced that battery is prematurely
failing because of sulfation that happens due to low SOC. And that low SOC is the result of Leaf not keeping it charging at
14,4V level long enough.
I have verified that this is not true. Leaf will charge 12V battery if it is not adequately charged (GerryAZ accidentally verified that).
Also we all have consensus that Leaf does keep 12V battery at 13V for extended periods (driving and charging Leaf).
All that research being done (links above) is clearly stating that battery will be at very high SOC if kept at 13V.
And the last and most difficult finding was that lead acid batteries are not able to stand at 100% SOC for any meaningful period.

I clearly did give a reasonable conclusion WHY Leaf doesn't keep 14.4V voltage any longer than it does.
I can not defend "my theories". This is not my work. There are: PhD dissertations, university materials, books, technical papers, etc.
I can only quote them and do conclusions that some "opinions and theories" are clearly incorrect. This includes information that
is widely available on the internet (like "lead acid battery will sulfate if not kept at 100%" or "float voltage should definitely be 13.6V")

Thank you for such soft warning. I didn't even accuse anybody on this forum. I was critical on lousy article/webpage. And asked
to read information I read. There is too much of that for anybody to quote into this thread.

But even if you believe the 80% bullcrap,

This clearly shows attitude to 80% charge bullcrap.

Now I'm waiting for solid research done on irreversible sulfation happening at SOC below 100%.
Otherwise it is just an opinion/assumption (according to all known means to distinguish statements).

 

[arnis]

Also whoever can measure Solar Cell power input during sunshine. Fuse 9 behind driver door, middle row 3rd from below.
Leaf state shouldn't matter. Direct connection from panel. IDK why "room lamp" is explanation on cover :lol:

 

[TimLee]

I don't think I have ever seen this much debate on a topic that that has been extensively discussed and debated for about five years on MNL.

Each users LEAF use is different.
Some have an original 2011 12V that is still working.

For me mine has been replaced twice.

But keep in mind the LEAF braking behaviour can be very strange and dangerous with a weak dieing 12V.

And the LEAF does not give you much warning unless you get lucky and it fails to start.

When I knew my 12V was going bad mine behaved very weird one day.

For my experience I agree that periodic battery maintainer use is more reliable and safer and that is what I do. And when it gets three years old I will also have its capacity checked every year at parts store. Maybe every six months once it is five years old.

If others want to not do that and wait till it fails to start or fails to brake properly that is their choice.

 

[RockyNv]

Myself I will just monitor and maintian as I have done with all the other lead acid batteries I have owned and maintained for the past 5 decades. I have my test meters and use them for their intended purpose and if the standing voltage drops below acceptible levels then the battery will get replaced. No need to wait for failure or odd behavior as a batteries condition is easily checked and verfied using simple tools and it only takes a few moments to use them.

 

[arnis]

I don't think I have ever seen this much debate on a topic that that has been extensively discussed and debated for about five years on MNL.

Each users LEAF use is different.
Some have an original 2011 12V that is still working.

For me mine has been replaced twice.

But keep in mind the LEAF braking behaviour can be very strange and dangerous with a weak dieing 12V.

And the LEAF does not give you much warning unless you get lucky and it fails to start.

When I knew my 12V was going bad mine behaved very weird one day.

For my experience I agree that periodic battery maintainer use is more reliable and safer and that is what I do. And when it gets three years old I will also have its capacity checked every year at parts store. Maybe every six months once it is five years old.

If others want to not do that and wait till it fails to start or fails to brake properly that is their choice.

Well, that is fair enough. I would add that any topic can be discussed too much. It is not always discussion
that solves puzzles. New information must intervene between people discussing and problem unsolved.
That new information is the key for successful discussion. Also the overall acceptance for solution must be agreed once
solution has been found, otherwise as soon as new thread has been made all untied strings will reappear.
There is a philosophy that should be followed for progress to happen.

I'm waiting for either acceptance or rejection WITH solution that has more firm ground under it. Otherwise what's the point to solve stuff.

Let's start with acceptance, that every lead acid battery is destined to die and not a single vehicle nor behaviour on Earth can stop that.

 

[JimSouCal]

I am kind of saddened that Leaf owners are arguing the scientific intricacies of the "12 volt battery", which is not even a part of the Leaf.

I'm not and I disagree. When my 12V battery was depleted, knowledge got me out of the bind, and saved me from a panic that my LEAF was computer toast. When it comes time to replace the 12V I will be informed about what options exist... For that matter, what is very debatable is: the LEAF is, or is not, like just any other car on the road... The 12V system in the LEAF has a very different set of mandates as compared to an ICE care, no cold cranking being one of them. Just my opinion. Hope you can find it okay that mine differs... And to be a contrarian to myself, the LEAF in many ways is just like another car on the road... No offense intended, but felt compelled to share my alternative view...

Why did you jump into this? I was referring to some other members... Second, I really don't care about your opinion either way, you are free to express your views.. That is what this site is for. However, you do not have to "disagree" with me personally, and hope that I "take no offense". I suggest that if I, or anyone else makes a post which you do not agree with, then just say... "I think that it may also be..." and let everyone who reads make their own conclusions.

I have been servicing cars for 40 years, and I have found that too many users here get into disputes over tires, mechanics, or things like the "proper battery charging algorithm". Many people forget that the battery is just a box with electricity. Keep it charged (or topped off), and it will last longer. If the 12v battery dies, yes, the Leaf will not run (like any car). Put in a new battery, and it will run... For most of us, that is all that we need to know..

To speak to your question, engaged in conversation for the particulars... In a certain sense I agree with you, but that said, I do not. We are viewing the facts differently I suppose.

For example to think of "the" battery as a "box of electricity", while practical as you describe, for me, lacks clarity and granular detail. Knowing that a lead acid battery utilizes an electrolytic chemical reaction (reversible) of aqueous sulphuric acid and lead to store and render energy is useful, and knowing that charging also creates explosive hydrogen gas (safety factor), and the impediments of sulfating the lead plates leads to end the utility of the battery is also helpful... I also would differentiate between a discharged battery that simply needs a recharge to a 12 volt battery that no longer holds a charge due to sulfating.

Bought a CTEK charger as a result of that understanding, as it runs a pulse cycle to reduce sulfating. Seems to work; but time will tell.

As to the site's purpose to express opinions, I really come here looking for information that I can assimilate into knowledge--and over the course of several years, this awareness has proved very valuable to me and, also to others.. Which is why, in a perhaps overly reactive way I posted. And maybe it just came out wrong, as if you were a friend sitting right in front of me, my tone of voice probably would have sounded better, but no idea... Ok, back to LEAF talk...

 

[LeftieBiker]

Arnis, the only likely "solution" to this problem would be a change from Nissan in the charging system programming - preferably one that can also be applied to older Leafs. Failing that, the "solution" is to use a battery maintainer regularly. That's only a bandaid, but it's an effective one. I see little value in the nihilistic "Let's start with acceptance, that every lead acid battery is destined to die and not a single vehicle nor behaviour on Earth can stop that." That's not just unhelpful, it's also addressing a strawman argument - one that does not exist here. No one is claiming to want a lead-acid battery that lasts forever. I think that most of us would be satisfied with one that lasted five years, with no having to manually charge it regularly.

 

[Nubo]

I have been servicing cars for 40 years, and I have found that too many users here get into disputes over tires, mechanics, or things like the "proper battery charging algorithm". Many people forget that the battery is just a box with electricity. Keep it charged (or topped off), and it will last longer. If the 12v battery dies, yes, the Leaf will not run (like any car). Put in a new battery, and it will run... For most of us, that is all that we need to know..

In my experience, the LEAF is particularly susceptible to low, and even marginal 12V battery. It's unlike most cars in important ways. For example, in an ICE car you become acutely aware of low battery condition because the starting event is a big current draw and makes a weak battery instantly recognizable. In effect, every internal combustion car has a built-in load tester for the 12V battery that is invoked every time you drive.

In the LEAF, the "starting current" is trivial and so the battery can drift down and become quite weak without giving any indication. And then when the 12V does drop below a certain threshold, it can result in any number of bizarre symptoms including anomalous braking performance that aren't immediately obvious as 12V problems, and are dangerous besides. Not everyone is prepared to read 24 separate DTC codes, realize they all have one root cause(12V supply), and clear them to get the car normalized again. Been there. For these reasons I think it is quite reasonable that LEAF drivers become wary of 12V issues and seek to understand and stay ahead of them.

 

[LeftieBiker]

/\ What he said. ;-)

 

[powersurge]

For everyone who is very concerned over the state of charge of the 12v battery....

Install a battery voltage meter in your car, and you will never need to worry of the health of your battery... It is easy to run a + lead into the passenger compartment.