LEAF Advisory Board, the sequel...

[alanlarson]

Converting the capacity bars to a constant scale for the state if charge bars would be an improvement. Capacity might better be shown as kWh capacity on one of the selectable midscreen displays, we don't need it every instant we are driving.

As for the navigation system, it seems fine except it is of less use when I am staying within 100 miles of home - I need navigation when I am 800 miles from home a lot more! The time I do want/need navigation is the time it falls short - when looking for a charging station. There are many examples where you are not within sight of the charge station when you are right at the icon on the screen (even zoomed in). The station may be a block or more away, with a large office complex in the way.

It should be possible to go to that spot, and tell it that that station is here, not where it thought it was. That should get updated. Instead, they just seem to have the same incorrect data as chargepoint/plugshare and all. If I am navigating to a charge because I *need* one, I would want that data to be much better than it is.

While at it, subscription data that expires after x years, or whenever 2g goes away, whichever is sooner, is not great. How about the ability to exchange data when parked at home on our home wifi network? That service should function at a reasonable level for the life of the car.

Oh, someone mentioned XM. I never heard from them when the 90 days ran out, but it probably doesn't matter. How about a replacement module to use the FM RDS data. At least around here, my Magellan does quite well with that, with a never expiring function.

 

[Slow1]

Would be nice if the marketing of the cars would stick to efficiency expected (average of x.y miles/kwh in EPA testing) and total useful capacity of the battery. Rest is "YMMV" statistics eh?

The ICE analogy is advertising the MPG (very standard, well understood) and tank size (10/15/20gallon?). Face it, we don't buy ICE vehicles comparing "total range of a gas tank". I know, BEVs are different - but the reality is that YMMV applies to both ICE and BEVs.

This is why I would rather just have a decent estimate of kWH remaining (estimate of gallons left in tank) available on the dash. The rest is up to me to manage/understand/etc. A nice tool would be to have the GOM use this value and a known estimate (user configurable would be most useful to me in my opinion). Sure set the default to the EPA MPkWH when the vehicle is sold then let user customize. I'm sure some dealers would consider playing with this - but that is a dealer problem, not a car problem. Keep that sort of thing up and the public won't trust dealers (oh, yeah, they don't already).

 

[TomT]

At the Los Angeles Auto Show today I saw a very sad sight... The only Leaf in Nissan's booth was behind the booth surround, away from all the other cars. It was almost as if they were ashamed of it or it had been bad and needed a time out... It was also a S whereas all the other cars in the booth were the higher end versions of their respective models... I heard one of the few people who saw it and looked inside comment, "It sure looks cheap." I talked to some of the Nissan associates there and they all said that they were embarrassed by the showing (or lack thereof)... Nissan also had none to drive at the dealer drive events outside...

It almost looked like they wanted it to fail. Pitiful.

 

[TimLee]

... I talked to some of the Nissan associates there and they all said that they were embarrassed by the showing (or lack thereof)... Nissan also had none to drive at the dealer drive events outside...

It almost looked like they wanted it to fail. Pitiful.

Interesting observation.
How did this compare to the previous four shows :?:
What did they do in 2010 (was the road show test mule prototype there?), 2011 (Probably gala event. They were doing lots of advertising the previous year. World's first mass marketed electric vehicle!), 2012 (?? Probably there. 2013 redesign was about to begin production in USA.), 2013 (??? Not much new to talk about?).
My guess is they are waiting for next year.
LEAF will reappear at auto shows when substantially redesigned version with 42 kWh battery is ready to be shown, hyped, discussed, and driven.

 

[Moof]

Using something like that will give you a meter that is almost always terribly inaccurate unless you always drive on a level surface at a constant speed...

My point in suggesting an EPA efficiency is to make sure that anyone visiting a typical shady dealer will not see a fiddled with car reporting 150 miles range on the DTE of a 90 mile range car.

I will take innaccurate and predictable over accuracte but unpredictable any day.

I want to hop in my car and see a range estimate at 100% charge that is EXACTLY double what I will see at 50% charge. Today I see 95 when I hop in, and usually 40 +/- 10 miles at 50%. Maddening.

 

[TimLee]

Keep the digital speedometer. ...

+1000
I have to drive my 2009 four cylinder Altima on a 180 mile round trip today.
The worst thing about it, even worse than it costing 15 cents per mile operating cost for gas and oil changes, is the horrible analog speedometer.
I think poor speed indication is a big part of why most people drive an ICE so inefficiently.

In the LEAF you clearly know how fast you are going and can easily choose not to accelerate past where you should for a turn coming up in 100 yards.
In the Altima you are just guessing.

Addition of analog speedometer above the digital on the LEAF would be good if it was done well with color differences for various speed ranges.
But don't dare get rid of the clear easy to read digital speed indication :!:

 

[Slow1]

I want to hop in my car and see a range estimate at 100% charge that is EXACTLY double what I will see at 50% charge. Today I see 95 when I hop in, and usually 40 +/- 10 miles at 50%. Maddening.

Fair enough point - however we all know that there are many factors that will affect range and cannot be predicted.

However, IF one were to drive on that hypothetical level, wind free, constant speed route, indeed the 100% range should be double the 50% range.

Predictable is key to me as well - however it is done one should be able to relate the changes to their actions - that's why I like the % charge remaining much better than the GOM - I can do my own mental math.

 

[Nubo]

Keep the digital speedometer. ...

+1000
I have to drive my 2009 four cylinder Altima on a 180 mile round trip today.
The worst thing about it, even worse than it costing 15 cents per mile operating cost for gas and oil changes, is the horrible analog speedometer.
I think poor speed indication is a big part of why most people drive an ICE so inefficiently.

In the LEAF you clearly know how fast you are going and can easily choose not to accelerate past where you should for a turn coming up in 100 yards.
In the Altima you are just guessing.

Addition of analog speedometer above the digital on the LEAF would be good if it was done well with color differences for various speed ranges.
But don't dare get rid of the clear easy to read digital speed indication :!:

I get by with the digital meter, but if I had my choice I'd go for an analog speedometer. I don't care that the digital numbers are "easy to read". I don't want to have to read them. I can see and get information from an analog dial even when I'm not looking at it. A digital representation does have some advantages. Ideally there would be both.

 

[TomT]

You can easily do that be using the SOC percentage, if that is what you want.

Range estimates, as currently calculated, are almost worthless in the real world. One based on a fixed efficiency would be even worse. Tesla has that as an option and almost no one uses it.

I want to hop in my car and see a range estimate at 100% charge that is EXACTLY double what I will see at 50% charge. Today I see 95 when I hop in, and usually 40 +/- 10 miles at 50%. Maddening.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Range estimates, as currently calculated, are almost worthless in the real world. One based on a fixed efficiency would be even worse. Tesla has that as an option and almost no one uses it.

Really? My impression was that some Tesla drivers going long distance via the Supercharger network use use the ideal or standard (EPA) miles estimate to gauge how long to charge to get to the next Supercharger. Around town the range is enough that mileage efficiency is almost irrelevant.

At least that was my impression when reading travel reports from Tesla drivers.

 

[TomT]

I know three Tesla owners and none of them regularly use it, preferring the real-time method for actual driving... One of them uses it at start-up to get an idea of the percent-world range, but then shifts to real-time. YMMV, of course.

...Range estimates, as currently calculated, are almost worthless in the real world. One based on a fixed efficiency would be even worse. Tesla has that as an option and almost no one uses it.

Really? My impression was that some Tesla drivers going long distance via the Supercharger network use use the ideal or standard (EPA) miles estimate to gauge how long to charge to get to the next Supercharger.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Keep the digital speedometer. ...

+1000
I have to drive my 2009 four cylinder Altima on a 180 mile round trip today.
The worst thing about it, even worse than it costing 15 cents per mile operating cost for gas and oil changes, is the horrible analog speedometer.
I think poor speed indication is a big part of why most people drive an ICE so inefficiently.

In the LEAF you clearly know how fast you are going and can easily choose not to accelerate past where you should for a turn coming up in 100 yards.
In the Altima you are just guessing.

Addition of analog speedometer above the digital on the LEAF would be good if it was done well with color differences for various speed ranges.
But don't dare get rid of the clear easy to read digital speed indication :!:

I get by with the digital meter, but if I had my choice I'd go for an analog speedometer. I don't care that the digital numbers are "easy to read". I don't want to have to read them. I can see and get information from an analog dial even when I'm not looking at it. A digital representation does have some advantages. Ideally there would be both.

ya, that is basically false. you are simply comfortable with the analog meter because you can "read" it without looking at it. its position in your peripheral vision tells you about how fast you are going... but to really see how fast, you need to take a pretty good look at it and it. now a gas guzzler that wastes 75% of its energy NOT moving you down the road, 5 mph more or less really is insignificant but that is that and this is this.

analog speedos after they get to a certain point, the gauge scale gets smaller and the supposed inaccuracy increases, which isnt necessarily true, but OUR ability to interpret it does.

there will always be preferences but the unanimous one is simply not likely no matter what the subject

 

[Slow1]

Perhaps the solution to the information panels is to just replace with LCD screen space and create widgits for each item and allow folks to customize which widgets they use and where they put them. That could in theory allow everyone to be equally happy or displeased

Heck, open up an API to allow widgits to be customized/created by users and who knows what innovative displays would be created eh?

 

[TomT]

+1

I saw a couple of cars at the auto show that now allow this... The K900 comes to mind as one...

Perhaps the solution to the information panels is to just replace with LCD screen space and create widgets for each item and allow folks to customize which widgets they use and where they put them. That could in theory allow everyone to be equally happy or displeased
Heck, open up an API to allow widgits to be customized/created by users and who knows what innovative displays would be created eh?

 

[Nubo]

I get by with the digital meter, but if I had my choice I'd go for an analog speedometer. I don't care that the digital numbers are "easy to read". I don't want to have to read them. I can see and get information from an analog dial even when I'm not looking at it. A digital representation does have some advantages. Ideally there would be both.

ya, that is basically false. you are simply comfortable with the analog meter because you can "read" it without looking at it. its position in your peripheral vision tells you about how fast you are going...

Pretty much exactly my point

but to really see how fast, you need to take a pretty good look at it and it. ...

ya, that is basically false. With a good analog dial I can tell my speed within 1mph without taking my eyes off the road. If I want to stare at it I can probably make out to within 0.1mph or less. I can also detect the rate of change quite nicely and catch drift long before a digital display clicks from one integral number to the next -- which can cover a 2mph spread. Second-order information such as rate of change is obscured by a digital readout.

 

[TimLee]

... With a good analog dial I can tell my speed within 1mph without taking my eyes off the road. If I want to stare at it I can probably make out to within 0.1mph or less. ...

Maybe with a really high quality analog dial.
With the 2009 Altima a glance will be lucky to tell you plus or minus 5 miles/hr.
A glance at LEAF digital is way better than that.

 

[Moof]

I have lived with both, and prefer analog. It is easier to see in your peripheral vison, and easier to see rate of change information. I'd befine with an LCD display that did either or both, but there are some good reasons why digital displays have not caught on widely since we first say them in the 80's along side the "The door is ajar" warnings.

 

[JeremyW]

I don't like analog speed meters for the simple reason that car makers tend to put something like 160 MPH as the high scale and I end up using only half the dial.

 

[pchilds]

I don't like analog speed meters for the simple reason that car makers tend to put something like 160 MPH as the high scale and I end up using only half the dial.

I agree, if you can't peg an analog speedometer, don't buy the car. :twisted: Remember, in the 1980s when 85 mph was the maximum speedometer limit for all cars?

 

[adric22]

ya, that is basically false. With a good analog dial I can tell my speed within 1mph without taking my eyes off the road. If I want to stare at it I can probably make out to within 0.1mph or less. I can also detect the rate of change quite nicely and catch drift long before a digital display clicks from one integral number to the next -- which can cover a 2mph spread. Second-order information such as rate of change is obscured by a digital readout.

Keep in mind that every since around 1995, all speedometers are essentially digital behind the scenes, taking their information from the VSS (vehicle speed sensor). So the only reason the digital ones don't reflect the rate of change very well is because they are programmed not to update but once or twice per second. Presumably this is done to make it easier for us to read. But I'd be happy if they were to increase the refresh rate on the digital speedometer about 2x to 3x. With a little software code they could help stabilize the number when the car is essentially not accelerating or decelerating much, that way you wouldn't see it constantly flicker between something like 41 and 42 mph.