July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

[GRA]

So, the question is how much of the Leaf's pathetic sales (and the Volt's relatively strong ones) are due to each of the following factors:

I imagine all of those issues factor in to a certain degree. Lets not forget that gas prices are down, which is probably one of the most important factors.

No doubt whatsoever, I was just wondering what % each of those factors played.

Also keep in mind that worldwide sales of the Leaf seem to be doing quite a bit better than the US sales.

Not that I've seen. European car sales are in the tank in any case owing to the economic uncertainty, and even China and India's economies are slowing down.

 

[camasleaf]

Is there any data on what ratio are going out as fleet sales? I'm just wondering because the Fed's own so much stock in GM still. It'd seem to be in the Fed's best interest to assure that the company is 'selling' their product - even if it's to the Fed's ... a major owner of the company. So is there any way to find that out?

GSA is in process of buying quite a few, I do not know if they started already.

 

[cwerdna]

For reference, these are Nissan's July 2012 US sales releases:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-162-in-july-164602276.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/U-S-Sales-Reports/releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-16-2-in-july" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (PDF table on right side)

 

[Stoaty]

For reference, these are Nissan's July 2012 US sales releases:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-162-in-july-164602276.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/U-S-Sales-Reports/releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-16-2-in-july" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (PDF table on right side)

Ah, 395 Leafs for the month of July--about 13 Leafs per day. Not exactly breaking sales records.

 

[ztanos]

For reference, these are Nissan's July 2012 US sales releases:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-162-in-july-164602276.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/U-S-Sales-Reports/releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-16-2-in-july" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (PDF table on right side)

Ah, 395 Leafs for the month of July--about 13 Leafs per day. Not exactly breaking sales records.

Slow and steady wins the race... :lol:

 

[DANandNAN]

Slow and steady wins the race... :lol:

I knew there was a plan!

 

[SanDust]

So, the question is how much of the Leaf's pathetic sales (and the Volt's relatively strong ones) are due to each of the following factors:

I think it's simpler than that.

1. Gas prices lower and moving even lower
2. Leafs being sold through dealers who don't understand the car and haven't figured out how to market it
3. Volts much more price competitive. Last year: Volt is at $40K; Leaf at $34K; Volt gets $0 CARB rebate and no HOV access; Leaf gets $5000 CARB rebate and HOV access. This year: Volt is $37K; Leaf is $36K; Volt gets $1500 CARB rebate; Leaf gets $2500 CARB rebate; Volt and Leaf both eligible for the HOV lane.

This is more or less what Nissan is saying using slightly different terms: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077615_nissan-leaf-electric-car-sales-slump-whats-happening-here" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[adric22]

1. Gas prices lower and moving even lower
2. Leafs being sold through dealers who don't understand the car and haven't figured out how to market it
3. Volts much more price competitive. Last year: Volt is at $40K; Leaf at $34K; Volt gets $0 CARB rebate and no HOV access; Leaf gets $5000 CARB rebate and HOV access. This year: Volt is $37K; Leaf is $36K; Volt gets $1500 CARB rebate; Leaf gets $2500 CARB rebate; Volt and Leaf both eligible for the HOV lane.

And don't forget - as I discovered myself recently. You can lease a Volt cheaper than a Leaf. However, if this played a big part of it that would suggest the Volt is taking all of the Leaf's customers. And while the Volt sales have been "good" at least for its niche category, I wouldn't exactly say the Volt is showing up on every street corner yet. So if Leaf sales truly are being stolen by the Volt, then that is bad news in general for the EV & PHEV market.
It'll be curious to see how many people are holding out for the 2013 Leaf. Being that most people who buy Leafs are the type of person who researches the car a lot before buying (as we know the salesmen won't sell people a Leaf) that suggests most buyers know about the 2013 upgrades. I guess we'll find out here in the next few months.

 

[ztanos]

Slow and steady wins the race... :lol:

I knew there was a plan!

Well, the car does kind of look like a turtle.

 

[Norway]

For reference, these are Nissan's July 2012 US sales releases:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-162-in-july-164602276.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/U-S-Sales-Reports/releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-16-2-in-july" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (PDF table on right side)

Ah, 395 Leafs for the month of July--about 13 Leafs per day. Not exactly breaking sales records.

In Norway (pop. 5 million), we have 174 new Leafs in the month of July.

It is the 16th most sold car in Norway.

 

[DANandNAN]

So, the question is how much of the Leaf's pathetic sales (and the Volt's relatively strong ones) are due to each of the following factors:

I think it's simpler than that.

1. Gas prices lower and moving even lower
2. Leafs being sold through dealers who don't understand the car and haven't figured out how to market it
3. Volts much more price competitive. Last year: Volt is at $40K; Leaf at $34K; Volt gets $0 CARB rebate and no HOV access; Leaf gets $5000 CARB rebate and HOV access. This year: Volt is $37K; Leaf is $36K; Volt gets $1500 CARB rebate; Leaf gets $2500 CARB rebate; Volt and Leaf both eligible for the HOV lane.

This is more or less what Nissan is saying using slightly different terms: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077615_nissan-leaf-electric-car-sales-slump-whats-happening-here" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1. Lower gas prices don't help sell anything more energy efficient, but that also means the Volt numbers are suffering and would be higher.
2. Most Volt dealers no nothing either. I've had two that knew about the car (at least one of them went through GM training on it). I've talked to a lot of Volt & Leaf salesmen & saleswomen that don't understand the either car.
3. Even with an additional $1,000 off and a MSRP that's a bit cheaper they still can't sell? Then it's time to go back to the drawing board, add more range & features or Nissan's accountants need to help.

Well, the car does kind of look like a turtle.

LOL

 

[TomT]

I think it is ultimately about both range and price, both for the Leaf and Volt. Electric range in the case of the Leaf, and the fact that the Volt has, for the small size and modest performance of the car, mediocre gas mileage when not electric. And, most importantly, both are expensive in the eyes of the consumer compared to the "competition." Remember that, for most, perception is reality...

3. Even with an additional $1,000 off and a MSRP that's a bit cheaper they still can't sell? Then it's time to go back to the drawing board, add more range & features or Nissan's accountants need to help.

 

[SanDust]

1. Lower gas prices don't help sell anything more energy efficient, but that also means the Volt numbers are suffering and would be higher.
2. Most Volt dealers no nothing either. I've had two that knew about the car (at least one of them went through GM training on it). I've talked to a lot of Volt & Leaf salesmen & saleswomen that don't understand the either car.

1. It's obvious that gas prices effect buying decisions. People overreact. When gas prices shoot up they panic and start looking for more fuel efficient vehicles. If gas prices start moving up again we'll see more interest in Volts and Leafs and the Prius and so forth. We've seen this behavior time and time again.

2. The key here is that you said "most". Totally agree. However, that leaves "some" who are figuring out how to market the Volt. Seems to me that GM ran into the same issue last year when they went national with the Volt. Lots of dealers had no idea how to sell them and sales were very low. GM didn't come close to hitting its yearly sales target, right? But a few figured it out. My impression is that a relatively small number of Chevy dealers are selling for a disproportionate number of Volts.

This isn't a bad thing BTW. Other dealers will learn from the market leaders and they will also start catching on. Of course some will never figure it out but that's life.

Nissan is just behind the curve of the dealer roll out. They did the direct to customer model, which pumped early sales, but now that Nissan is moving to the traditional dealer model what they're finding is that the dealers don't know how to market the Leaf very effectively. I believe we'll see the same movement up the learning curve as we've seen in the Volt, but it will take some time and right now Nissan is behind Chevy in this process.

I agree BTW that range is a big issue for the Leaf. No issue there. And price of course. IMO price can solve the range issue more easily than range can solve the price problem. Make it cheap enough and lots of people will buy a limited range commuter, especially if they have another vehicle. The problem for Nissan is that if prices are similar most will go for an EREV rather than a BEV. I have a Leaf and I would (when I got the Leaf the purchase decision was pretty easy because the Leaf was $10K cheaper than the Volt and the Volt wasn't HOV eligible). This is why having production in Smyrna is so important -- it will allow Nissan to cut the price.

 

[SanDust]

I think it is ultimately about both range and price, both for the Leaf and Volt. Electric range in the case of the Leaf, and the fact that the Volt has, for the small size and modest performance of the car, mediocre gas mileage when not electric. And both are expensive in the eyes of the consumer compared to the "competition."

I think it's wrong to think that price and range and MPG are all equally important. They're not. Price is the big driver. You can see that with the Volt. The financing and lease deals are driving the better sales numbers. Price is doing the same thing but in the opposite direction for the Leaf: Nissan raised the price. The CARB rebate was halved. Sales tanked. You know the song that goes "Boys Boys Boys"? Well in this case it's "Price Price Price".

Hard to see how the MPG numbers for the Volt would matter much. If you look at voltstats the median Volt driver is getting 175 MPG. If GM improved the MPG numbers to something above what you can get with the Prius it might move the median MPG to to 180. Doesn't seem very exciting.

 

[DaveEV]

I think it is ultimately about both range and price, both for the Leaf and Volt. Electric range in the case of the Leaf, and the fact that the Volt has, for the small size and modest performance of the car, mediocre gas mileage when not electric. And both are expensive in the eyes of the consumer compared to the "competition."

This is where I think the C-Max Energi has the potential to swoop up a good deal of sales. <$30 after federal tax credit, a usable 20 mi EV range (especially compared to the PiP) but still gets 47 mpg when the charge runs out. Add in more interior room than the Prius and Volt and I think you have some real competition for someone who wants to really reduce gasoline consumption while making few compromises. I for sure think we'll see a lot of these sitting next to LEAFs in the garage. While I'd prefer something with the EV capability of the Volt - I really need something with slightly more interior room and minimum 45 mpg for those long road trips. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the Energi will be available until some time in 2013.

Until then - it will be interesting to see what Nissan pulls out of their hat for the 2013 LEAF to boost sales - I don't see any other really enticing plug-ins to boost sales due for some time...

Still - the cheap lease rates on the Volt are definitely enticing - I could certainly be coerced into one to replace the Prius for $200/mo (anyone getting prices like that in California?)

 

[GRA]

So, the question is how much of the Leaf's pathetic sales (and the Volt's relatively strong ones) are due to each of the following factors:

I think it's simpler than that.

1. Gas prices lower and moving even lower
2. Leafs being sold through dealers who don't understand the car and haven't figured out how to market it
3. Volts much more price competitive. Last year: Volt is at $40K; Leaf at $34K; Volt gets $0 CARB rebate and no HOV access; Leaf gets $5000 CARB rebate and HOV access. This year: Volt is $37K; Leaf is $36K; Volt gets $1500 CARB rebate; Leaf gets $2500 CARB rebate; Volt and Leaf both eligible for the HOV lane.

This is more or less what Nissan is saying using slightly different terms: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077615_nissan-leaf-electric-car-sales-slump-whats-happening-here" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To which should be added the fact that the Volt, PiP and any other PHEV don't require an L2 at home to get a full charge overnight, cutting down the hassle and cost even more.

I think it is ultimately about both range and price, both for the Leaf and Volt. Electric range in the case of the Leaf, and the fact that the Volt has, for the small size and modest performance of the car, mediocre gas mileage when not electric. And both are expensive in the eyes of the consumer compared to the "competition."

This is where I think the C-Max Energi has the potential to swoop up a good deal of sales. <$30 after federal tax credit, a usable 20 mi EV range (especially compared to the PiP) but still gets 47 mpg when the charge runs out. Add in more interior room than the Prius and Volt and I think you have some real competition for someone who wants to really reduce gasoline consumption while making few compromises. I for sure think we'll see a lot of these sitting next to LEAFs in the garage. While I'd prefer something with the EV capability of the Volt - I really need something with slightly more interior room and minimum 45 mpg for those long road trips. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the Energi will be available until some time in 2013.

Until then - it will be interesting to see what Nissan pulls out of their hat for the 2013 LEAF to boost sales - I don't see any other really enticing plug-ins to boost sales due for some time...

Still - the cheap lease rates on the Volt are definitely enticing - I could certainly be coerced into one to replace the Prius for $200/mo (anyone getting prices like that in California?)

I agree on the C-Max Energi. For someone like me for whom the majority of driving miles are on freeways and highways on trips, hauling around the unneeded weight of the Volt's battery pack makes little sense, when it's going to be cheaper and more efficient to run a Prius on gas at my typical trip radius.

From a non-GHG pollution perspective I mainly want the battery for when I'm on city streets or in other populated areas, not when tooling down a rural freeway at 70. In the Bay Area twenty miles AER is adequate for that. I'd like to see a Volt offered with half the battery (which would slightly boost its Hwy MPG and performance), but the C-Max Energi meets my needs better as far as room and general utility. Once affordable BEV ranges increase to at least my minimum requirements I can switch, but right now for me they just don't make economic or practical sense. Barring a battery tech breakthrough I don't expect to see that for another five to ten years, assuming 6-8% annual battery price decrease.

 

[evnow]

In Norway (pop. 5 million), we have 174 new Leafs in the month of July.

It is the 16th most sold car in Norway.

I think Leaf has a big price advantage in Norway. For eg. How much does a Golf cost ?

 

[redLEAF]

I think it is ultimately about both range and price, both for the Leaf and Volt. Electric range in the case of the Leaf, and the fact that the Volt has, for the small size and modest performance of the car, mediocre gas mileage when not electric. And both are expensive in the eyes of the consumer compared to the "competition."

This is where I think the C-Max Energi has the potential to swoop up a good deal of sales. <$30 after federal tax credit, a usable 20 mi EV range (especially compared to the PiP) but still gets 47 mpg when the charge runs out. Add in more interior room than the Prius and Volt and I think you have some real competition for someone who wants to really reduce gasoline consumption while making few compromises. I for sure think we'll see a lot of these sitting next to LEAFs in the garage. While I'd prefer something with the EV capability of the Volt - I really need something with slightly more interior room and minimum 45 mpg for those long road trips. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the Energi will be available until some time in 2013.

Until then - it will be interesting to see what Nissan pulls out of their hat for the 2013 LEAF to boost sales - I don't see any other really enticing plug-ins to boost sales due for some time...

Still - the cheap lease rates on the Volt are definitely enticing - I could certainly be coerced into one to replace the Prius for $200/mo (anyone getting prices like that in California?)

+1 on the C-Max, it looks like just enough space, range, price, etc. and nothing else seems to be coming along any time soon that has more room than the Volt but perhaps I have a little more time to wait; after all I waited 18 months to get my LEAF! The key for me will also be ride/noise comfort on trips longer than the 20 mile battery limit as this would replace our 'trip' car as well as perform some local commuter duties at times (we have 3 drivers). As the regular C-Max hybrid will be out first (we may see some before the end of August) at least that should give some indications so we'll see how well it does in reviews which we should hopefully start seeing soon.

 

[Norway]

In Norway (pop. 5 million), we have 174 new Leafs in the month of July.

It is the 16th most sold car in Norway.

I think Leaf has a big price advantage in Norway. For eg. How much does a Golf cost ?

The VW Golf varies from approx. USD 38k to USD 48k - including sales tax.

The Leaf is USD 44k (no sales tax applicable).

However, a gallon of gas is about USD 10 (!), which is pretty significant.

Also, for electric vehicles all tunnels, national ferries and road tolls are free.

I know of people who save up to USD 6000 per year in gas and road tolls.


In addition to all of the above, all electric cars park free on all street parking, we drive in the bus lane, we don't pay USD 400 annual car tax, and from this year 50% of all public parking spaces in the capital will be reserved for electric vehicles (with free 3.6 kW charging for all of them).

 

[TomT]

I'm moving!!! :lol:

In Norway (pop. 5 million), we have 174 new Leafs in the month of July.

It is the 16th most sold car in Norway.

I think Leaf has a big price advantage in Norway. For eg. How much does a Golf cost ?

The VW Golf varies from approx. USD 38k to USD 48k - including sales tax.

The Leaf is USD 44k (no sales tax applicable).

However, a gallon of gas is about USD 10 (!), which is pretty significant.

Also, for electric vehicles all tunnels, national ferries and road tolls are free.

I know of people who save up to USD 6000 per year in gas and road tolls.

In addition to all of the above, all electric cars park free on all street parking, we drive in the bus lane, we don't pay USD 400 annual car tax, and from this year 50% of all public parking spaces in the capital will be reserved for electric vehicles (with free 3.6 kW charging for all of them).