"Improved" battery chemistry; Is it real?

[davidcary]

I trust that the battery is better. I'm not sure if I lived in Pheonix that I would buy one. Given the modest replacement cost and the capacity warranty, I'm not really sure the battery has to be that much better.

Not that much better might still be unacceptable in Pheonix but the rest of the country would probably be fine.

Not that much better still probably makes multiple QCs in the heat of summer a bad idea.

I wonder what Nissan is going to do when they try to compete with Tesla. Really hard to do roadtrips in the heat of summer without a TMS.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It took roughly two summers for the real world loss to be clear enough to most* of us. I'm assuming it will take that amount of time for any loss to be readily apparent with the new chemistry.

*There were quite a few people, both here on this forum and within Nissan, who denied the rapid capacity loss the first time as ether "normal and expected" or a BMS "software" issue.

not true. there were people who noticed the loss almost immediately but were ignored for the most part.

with the access to monitoring equipment now available, you would only not be aware of the loss if you choose to be.

 

[Stoaty]

Whatever the failure was regarding hot-weather testing of the original cells, I wouldn't be surprised if the pendulum then swung far to the other side - i.e, rigorous and exhaustive testing before releasing the 2015 cells. I don't think anyone wants to have to explain a repeat of that fiasco to Mr. Ghosn.

My thoughts exactly. I expect that Nissan's claims will be "mostly true", although at this point I wouldn't purchase a Leaf if I lived in Phoenix. If the Lizard battery pans out, going without TMS is definitely a smart move on Nissan's part.

 

[Weatherman]

The other question will be, what is considered a "successful" test of the new battery.

It it going from a 20% loss in 18 months to a 20% loss in 24 months? Or, maybe, a 20% loss in three years? Both are still pretty bad.

 

[myleaf]

I live in the Phoenix area and asked Nissan to lease us one with the new battery before they released them for real consumer testing but they only wanted their internal people to test it. They told us it was kept at 140F day and night and passed a 1 year test. They would not say what passed was.

We have a few people that got a battery replacement under warranty and were told they have the new Heat Tolerant Lizard battery. We use GID meters and SCAN GAUGE and Leaf Spy to check the capacity so we may know after this summer.

II may have missed the postings that some individuals in Phx got the heat resistant replacement battery. I was told I was given the original chemistry. Pipcecil mentioned that being informed that warranty battery replacements will be of original battery chemistry. It was mentioned that this may change after inventory of the original batteries are depleted.

 

[ydnas7]

The other question will be, what is considered a "successful" test of the new battery.

It it going from a 20% loss in 18 months to a 20% loss in 24 months? Or, maybe, a 20% loss in three years? Both are still pretty bad.

what about 4x the life for a Phoenix user

reducing to 1.5x the life for a seattle user

for a cost that is small enough to be hidden in the yearly model change

 

[mkjayakumar]

charges best out of the garage at night in the open air

That is what I have been doing everyday for nearly 7 months a year. I think it really helps.

 

[DanCar]

charges best out of the garage at night in the open air

That is what I have been doing everyday for nearly 7 months a year. I think it really helps.

This helps even in mild climates like San Fran area. The colder you keep the battery the better. Keeping it outside is better than keeping it in a warmed garage.

 

[evnow]

They told us it was kept at 140F day and night and passed a 1 year test. They would not say what passed was.

Hadn't heard of this. Basically Nissan was trying to "rapidly age" the battery.

They would have tested the current battery along with the new one to figure out exactly how they compare. My guess is passed atleast meant the battery wouldn't need to be replaced under warranty.

 

[Stoaty]

The other question will be, what is considered a "successful" test of the new battery.

It it going from a 20% loss in 18 months to a 20% loss in 24 months? Or, maybe, a 20% loss in three years? Both are still pretty bad.

--Successful** would be degradation in Phoenix that matches degradation for the current battery in the Seattle.
--Mostly successful** would be if the degradation in Phoenix was about 25% faster than the current battery in Seattle.
--Partly successful** would if the degradation in Phoenix was about 50% faster than the current battery in Seattle.
--Unsuccessful** would be if the degradation in Phoenix was 100% faster than the current battery in Seattle.

** ATS - "According to Stoaty"

 

[KJD]

The original sound bite on degradation was
80% remaining after 5 years time
70% remaining after 10 years time.

If Nissan can pull that off, I would be happy.

 

[Nubo]

 

[Weatherman]

The other question will be, what is considered a "successful" test of the new battery.

It it going from a 20% loss in 18 months to a 20% loss in 24 months? Or, maybe, a 20% loss in three years? Both are still pretty bad.

--Successful** would be degradation in Phoenix that matches degradation for the current battery in the Seattle.
--Mostly successful** would be if the degradation in Phoenix was about 25% faster than the current battery in Seattle.
--Partly successful** would if the degradation in Phoenix was about 50% faster than the current battery in Seattle.
--Unsuccessful** would be if the degradation in Phoenix was 100% faster than the current battery in Seattle.

** ATS - "According to Stoaty"

What we need is for someone in Phoenix and someone in Seattle to act as guinea pigs. Both get 2015s at the same time and record the Ahr reading at the time of purchase (or start of lease). Then record Ahr readings once a month for the following two years. The guinea pigs would need to plan on putting a similar number of miles on their cars during the two-year period.

I might consider leasing another LEAF in 2016 (once my Volt lease ends) if the degradation rate of the guinea pig LEAFs could come even close to matching each other.

 

[philkatz]

charges best out of the garage at night in the open air

That is what I have been doing everyday for nearly 7 months a year. I think it really helps.

This helps even in mild climates like San Fran area. The colder you keep the battery the better. Keeping it outside is better than keeping it in a warmed garage.

FWIW I (the originator of this thread) have no garage; just an open air parking pad next to house, w/ the 240 V charging station originally purchased for my Chev Volt.

I have heard of people putting little portable fans under their cars when they charge on hot days. Any data on effectiveness of same? or just wishful thinking or "it oughta help a bit"?

 

[philkatz]

.......
My thoughts exactly. I expect that Nissan's claims will be "mostly true", although at this point I wouldn't purchase a Leaf if I lived in Phoenix. If the Lizard battery pans out, going without TMS is definitely a smart move on Nissan's part.[/quote]


Ok I'm a rookie on this one; can't figure out what TMS stands for.

 

[Weatherman]

Ok I'm a rookie on this one; can't figure out what TMS stands for.

Temperature Management System.

like you have on your Volt.

cools the battery when it gets too hot.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Ok I'm a rookie on this one; can't figure out what TMS stands for.

Temperature Management System.

like you have on your Volt.

cools the battery when it gets too hot.

And warms it if it gets too cold. (Not important for battery degradation but useful to maintain capacity and range in very cold weather.)

 

[philkatz]

Ok I'm a rookie on this one; can't figure out what TMS stands for.

Temperature Management System.

like you have on your Volt.

cools the battery when it gets too hot.

-----------------------------
Thanks
PK

 

[ColumbiaRiverGorge]

I have heard of people putting little portable fans under their cars when they charge on hot days. Any data on effectiveness of same? or just wishful thinking or "it oughta help a bit?"

I use two floor fans that go under the car from 7pm to 7am During warmer months and/or warm battery temperatues. I also park outside. It cools my bettery down a lot more with the fans than without. Does it help, maybe. I work in The Dalles, Oregon where summer temps. Are warm/hot. I'm just some things doing what I can to make it to 5 years of ownership before I buy the Lizard battery. I QC & drive hills at 65 (with strong headwinds) which probably doesn't help.

 

[mctom987]

I have heard of people putting little portable fans under their cars when they charge on hot days. Any data on effectiveness of same? or just wishful thinking or "it oughta help a bit?"

Wishful thinking.

The bottom of the vehicle is covered with a shield to reduce air drag. This also blocks the airflow to the battery.