GRA
Well-known member
As I said, it's all a question of priorities. Of course the Tesla is a much nicer car - for that kind of money it had better be. But it's not a longer-ranged car, nor is it cheaper to own, which was the comparison asked for. Even though it's the most expensive, longest ranged BEV available, it still can't compete on range with a car costing many thousands of dollars less. The Mirai isn't aimed at the Tesla crowd, it's aimed at the Prius crowd. If you need a road trip car, then one with the Mirai's capabilites is far more efficient in terms of time and flexibility (assuming equal infrastructure) than any existing BEV at any price. And if you want to compare to a LEAF, you also have to include in the life cycle costs not only a battery replacement, but the cost of the ICE you need for all the trips that the LEAF simply isn't suitable for. The Mirai is suitable to be a family's sole vehicle, and for almost everyone short range BEVs like the LEAF aren't,rcm4453 said:You are really going to compare that slow, under powered economy class Mirai against a P90D Tesla?!? You've got to be kidding me right?!? The Tesla runs circles around the Mirai in styling, performance, class basically in EVERY way possible! It's a Luxury car!!! Hello! Of course it's going to cost more. That's an apples to oranges comparison and you know it. Besides, most who could afford the Mirai would spend the extra money to get a FAR SUPERIOR car such as the Tesla P90! Why don't you compare it to the upcoming Chevy Bolt EV? Now run those numbers again and let me know what you get....too funny!GRA said:Now, make them pay for equal range capability, year around. That's $57,500 base MSRP for the 312 mile EPA range Mirai, versus $88.3k base MSRP for a 294 mile EPA base Model S 90D (Tesla has removed the S90 from their site), both before gov't incentives, not that they have equal range in winter when using heat, and as I've said before, anyone with any sense will lease rather than buy an FCEV now, given the uncertainty of future H2 fuel prices.finman100 said:Make people pay for the hydrogen. real costs not "free" for 3 years. make them drive a 67 MPGe mirai. and for fun make them fuel up at home. (ha)
Then make them buy electricity. real costs. Make them drive a 114 MPGe Leaf. and for fun make them fuel up at home.
something tells me the math folks will choose properly.
and lots of people do the math. money DOES rule, all other factors are considered, but if it's cheaper...let's be honest, too few care about other factors.
If you aren't a math person, then don't complain about getting less for more money in a fool cell car. period. only really, really, really un-smart people do these types of things.
At my local H2 station (with no nearby competition), H2 is currently selling for $16.78/kg., and at other sites in state we know it was selling for $13.59 and $13.99, which is obviously non-competitive with gasoline, and which is why the DoE goal is an ultimate price (untaxed) of $4/kg. Anyway, let's assume a current average price of $15/kg, and absolutely no reduction in the next three years. The difference in base MSRP is $88.3 - $57.5 = $29.8k. At $15.00/kg divided by 67 miles/kg = ~$0.224/mile. $29,800/$0.224 = 133,035 miles you can drive the Mirai before you equal the amount you spent on the Model S, assuming you get all the electricity you charge the Tesla with for free (note that I've ignored the higher D&H, licensing and insurance costs for the Tesla, as well as the cost of money, depreciation and the cost of any electrical upgrades required to provide a 240V circuit to charge it with). Gee, isn't math fun?
In short, It just depends on your personal situation and what your priorities are. At the moment, no one primarily concerned with Life Cycle costs will buy _any_ AFV, because none of them pencil out without subsidies.
As for the Bolt, again it's a matter of priorities. While a 200 mile EPA BEV priced like the Bolt is suitable to be many people's sole car, if you need the Mirai's range and refueling time, then the Bolt simply won't meet your needs. No BEV at any price offers the Mirai's range. As for Life cycle costs, it all depends on how much degradation the Bolt can have and still meet your needs. If you have to buy a replacement pack, that will have to be factored into TCO. An FCEV will also lose range as it ages, but since the refueling times are short that's less critical of an issue (again, assuming adequate fueling infrastructure). I consider that two hours of freeway range would be acceptable to most people, if the refueling/charging times are short enough, and the Mirai when new can go twice that. Of course, for around town use days between refuelings is more important than range between refuelings, and the ability to charge at home (if able) is an advantage there. But as I've pointed out again and again, most of the world's car-owning population doesn't have that option, so the BEV's advantage is notional until that changes.