Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Toyota and Hino to test new fuel cell bus on public routes in Tokyo

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/07/20150721-toyota.html

In the next stage of development for their jointly-developed fuel cell bus (earlier post), Toyota Motor Corporation and Hino Motors, Ltd. will carry out field tests in Tokyo from 24-30 July, hoping to accelerate technological development of the bus with the aim of bringing it to market.

The new bus was developed jointly by Toyota and Hino based on a Hino hybrid non-step route bus and is equipped with the Toyota Fuel Cell System developed for the Mirai fuel cell vehicle. (Earlier post.)

These field tests will help determine the practicality of the fuel cell bus for use in public transport networks, as well as evaluating the efficacy of its external power supply system during widespread power outages caused by natural disasters. The tests will be carried out with the cooperation of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government.

The design of the bus has been optimized for increased power output, and features two 110 kW fuel cell stacks and 110 kW (335 N·m) motors alongside eight 70 MPa high-pressure hydrogen tanks. The bus uses a NiMH drive battery, and also features a 9.8 kW / DC300 V vehicle-to-home (V2H) system. . . .

and

Israel Aerospace Industries and Cella Energy receive grant for UAV fuel cell project

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/07/20150721-cella.html

. . . IAI, a global leader in the development and production of Unmanned Aerial Systems (UAS) and Cella Energy will develop and evaluate a fuel cell power system for IAI’s BirdEye Mini UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle), based on Cella’s proprietary solid hydrogen fuel system.

The potential benefit of the project is to double or even triple the UAV flight duration at the same battery weight, solving one of the biggest limitations of battery-operated UAVs. The project is about to be launched, subjected to export regulations and collaboration agreement.

Cella’s proprietary hydride-based hydrogen storage technology provides a low-weight, high-performance alternative to lithium-polymer batteries, the power source typically used in small UAVs. Cella has developed a plastic-like hydrogen storage material that can be pressed and shaped into any form. When heated above 100°C, hydrogen is released within minutes. Each gram of Cella material safely stores approximately one liter of hydrogen gas. . . .

 

[Zythryn]

Those are great uses for hydrogen.
Hopefully we will see more of these types of applications rather than the poor fit of cars.

 

[GRA]

Just found a site for the Tucson FCV (last looked about a year ago, and there weren't any), and this link leads to a topic about one user's (apparently got the second one in the U.S.) experiences over the past year. Likes the vehicle, seems to be the usual teething issues with any new tech, mainly involving problems with fueling sites being down for prolonged periods for upgrading or repair, and the delayed construction of many sites. Apparently things are now speeding up a bit with the upcoming intro of the Mirai. Anyway: http://www.mytucsonfuelcell.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=778

Initial impressions from the first post:

We were the second ones to take delivery of the Fuel Cell Tucson. Picked ours up a month ago from Tustin Hyundai so have had some time to get used to it. These are our impressions so far:

1. Unbelievably quiet
2. Nimble handling and solid ride (much better in both areas than our RAV4)
3. Acceleration from a dead stop is actually very quick, and faster than we expected, even up the hill by our house. If trying to get all the way up to sixty from a stop then it is more in the normal range. Haven't had any problems at all passing cars, entering highway etc. on the busy highways in So Cal.
4. Right now we drive about 20 miles to fuel it, but because that station is close to airport and other of our normal activities we haven't made a special trip just to fuel yet.
5. There are two fueling stations opening within 5-10 miles from us the end of this October
6. With the fuel being included in this lease we have saved about $120 so far in comparison to a 30mpg gasoline vehicle and estimating gas at $4/gallon
7. Hyundai staff has been awesome from the very beginning and our fueling trainer is great!
8. Fueling is really very simple and has taken 6-8 minutes so far.
9. We are getting about 285+ miles per tankful
10. Things that are not available (these SUVs need to be the same as the ones already rolled out in Europe so can't modify) are cruise control, homelink, sunroof (due to where the US government said the sensor needed to be located) and at this time cannot put a hitch on it.
Overall we love it! I find it frustrating that every time I read an article about FCVs what is used as the example is the upcoming Toyota Fuel Cell, never mention of this Tucson which is already here, and has a significantly lower MSRP. It is also generally quoted that there are only 12 Hydrogen fueling stations available and neglects to mention how many are opening this year and next... Just should be a more accurate portrayal of the situation.

In a later post, after detailing some of the issues with fueling stations he mentions that he's started a website to provide more current info on H2 station status than the CAFCP website, which is apparently not particularly current. http://fuelcellfuture.org/

Taking a look at it, West Sacramento opened last December, so the note in the comments section should be deleted. Can't say how current the others are.

 

[DaveEV]

This is are not as rosy as it seems with less than 100 production fuel cells on the road in the region:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099082_ca-fuel-cell-car-drivers-says-hydrogen-fuel-unavailable-stations-dont-work

While they enjoy driving their cars, early lessees of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in Southern California are complaining that they can't reliably fuel them at the handful of stations now supposedly operating in their region.

The stations are frequently inoperative, they say, closed for days or weeks at a time.

Moreover, when the stations are functioning properly, they sometimes can only fuel one or two cars before an hour-long wait is required--and some stations can only fuel the cars to half-full

.

 

[sparky]

Perhaps cherry-picked for click value but this GCR article finds some less than happy FCV drivers:

"Early lessee Paul Berkman of Corona del Mar, for one, is frustrated.
He's paying $500 a month for a vehicle he hasn't been able to drive for five weeks, because all three hydrogen stations within 20 minutes of his home or workplace have been down for more than a month."
...Other fuel-cell drivers, he said, told him that station "really suffered" from demand, with occasional lines of one or more drivers waiting for it to come up to pressure so they could refuel."


http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-hydrogen-fuel-unavailable-stations-dont-work

 

[lorenfb]

Perhaps cherry-picked for click value but this GCR article finds some less than happy FCV drivers:

"Early lessee Paul Berkman of Corona del Mar, for one, is frustrated.
He's paying $500 a month for a vehicle he hasn't been able to drive for five weeks, because all three hydrogen stations within 20 minutes of his home or workplace have been down for more than a month."
...Other fuel-cell drivers, he said, told him that station "really suffered" from demand, with occasional lines of one or more drivers waiting for it to come up to pressure so they could refuel."

A typical start-up support problem that usually occurs with a new technology product that's less than six
months old from introduction. It appears, though, that the consumer is happy with the product itself.

The situations quoted are not unlike my experiences with the Leaf when I'm in Orange County with
a remaining range of twenty miles and the only QC within range is down and I have a customer
visit 45 miles away in one hour. Without having QC always available and RELIABLE, the Leaf is not
a viable EV choice for me. Luckily I have tolerant customers. So four years after the intro of the Leaf,
one still finds situations similar to the newly released to the public six month old FCEVs.

 

[sparky]

A typical start-up support problem that usually occurs with a new technology product that's less than six
months old from introduction. It appears, though, that the consumer is happy with the product itself....

That's a reasonable assessment for this phase. One thing I find telling, comes from this exchange:
"Contacted by Green Car Reports, Hyundai spokesman Derek Joyce deferred questions on fueling infrastructure for hydrogen vehicles to a representative from the California Governor's office."

That's similar to the response, initially, from Nissan and other BEV manufacturers to charging infrastructure. Tesla chose to "own" the problem and install a network of international Superchargers. Of course with electricity, it's within the budget of a small company. Seems much more costly and difficult for a single company to do that with H2 and regrettably for the FCV drivers, there could be a prolonged period of finger pointing about re-fueling issues. We'll see. I do want to test drive a Tucson and Mirai just for my own edification.

 

[DaveEV]

A typical start-up support problem that usually occurs with a new technology product that's less than six
months old from introduction. It appears, though, that the consumer is happy with the product itself.

Hydrogen fueling stations have been around for a lot longer than 6 months.

 

[mtndrew1]

A typical start-up support problem that usually occurs with a new technology product that's less than six
months old from introduction. It appears, though, that the consumer is happy with the product itself.

The situations quoted are not unlike my experiences with the Leaf when I'm Orange County with
a remaining range of twenty miles and the only QC within range is down and I have a customer
visit 45 miles away in one hour. Without having QC always available and RELIABLE, the Leaf is not
a viable EV choice for me. Luckily I have tolerant customers. So four years after the intro of the Leaf,
one still finds situations similar to the newly released to the public six month old FCEVs.

I don't have a dog in this hunt (though I think FCEVs are bonkers) but the Torrance station referenced as going down and being slow has been open for many years now. It's right by my house and I've seen Hondas and Mercedes-Benzes refueling there for a long, long time.

It's not as if it's a new thing and they're ironing out kinks; that particular station should have long since been reliable. My viewpoint is that the refueling infrastructure is inherently maintenance intensive and costly.

 

[RegGuheert]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099082_ca-fuel-cell-car-drivers-says-hydrogen-fuel-unavailable-stations-dont-work

Moreover, when the stations are functioning properly, they sometimes can only fuel one or two cars before an hour-long wait is required--and some stations can only fuel the cars to half-full

.

Perhaps cherry-picked for click value but this GCR article finds some less than happy FCV drivers:

"...Other fuel-cell drivers, he said, told him that station "really suffered" from demand, with occasional lines of one or more drivers waiting for it to come up to pressure so they could refuel."

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-hydrogen-fuel-unavailable-stations-dont-work

These quotes speak directly to the issue which we have detailed from very early in this thread: These multi-million-dollar hydrogen refueling installations can each only service a very small fleet of FCVs. In addition, the equipment has a design lifetime similar to that of the vehicles themselves. As a result, the refueling infrastructure ends up being equivalent to a direct, additional cost that needs to be tacked onto the production cost of each FCV. Based on previous calculations, that additional cost appears to be on the order of $10,000 to $20,000 per vehicle.

Even the earliest adopters of EVs never had to deal with this much added cost to refuel their vehicles. FCV early adopters are not seeing this excessive cost due to the fact that taxpayers are footing the bill to the exclusive benefit of the few FCV owners and the even-fewer FCV manufacturers.

 

[lorenfb]

These multi-million-dollar hydrogen refueling installations can each only service a very small fleet of FCVs..

Right, since there's only a very very small fleet of consumer FCEV vehicles presently!

By the way, the Torrance H2 facility on 190th (across from Toyota corporate) has basically been, until
now, a Toyota only test facility, i.e. since no consumer vehicles were available to the public. And who
knows how the new FCEV consumer operates (damages) the H2 facility like what often occurs when a QC
unit gets mis-operated or damaged by other BEV vehicles, e.g. the Kia. Obviously, the facilities go thru
a "learning process" when the typical nascent consumer becomes involved as in any new technology.

 

[mtndrew1]

How does a Kia BEV damage a FC filling facility? There are no EVSEs there to the best of my knowledge.
EDIT: Clearly I misread, the intent was the Kia damaging ABB CHAdeMO DC chargers. If I remember correctly this ended up being the ABB units being out of CHAdeMO spec and requiring new firmware. My particular Kia has never had an update and behaves fine with ABB chargers now, so I'm pretty sure it was on their end.

If it's a Toyota facility it's awfully oddly marked with giant SHELL signage and all the non-Toyota FCEVs that have been refilling there for the past four years. There's a Clarity and a MB FCEV (previous generation A or B class) that I see refilling there regularly.

I saw three Tucsons backed up at this station two weeks ago as I was driving by. The vehicles were without their drivers, so I'm not sure what the deal was.

 

[GRA]

It needs to be pointed out that most of the existing stations were development/test sites, and were never intended to serve high intensity commercial-scale operations. That's why some of them are being upgraded. Other stations have been out of service for prolonged periods because they are waiting on a part, which is also typical of small-scale, non-standardized systems. Until there are a large number of standardized, commercial scale fueling stations in operation, any attempt to classify their reliability is premature. I suspect the 19 Toyota-subsidized stations in California using Air Products equipment and operated by FirstElement will begin to provide us with some useful data*, and Linde is also involved in many installs, both here and in Europe and Asia, with a standardized product.

As it is, the H2 stations seem no more or less reliable than CHAdeMO QCs here despite the latter's more than 3 years of experience, with the important caveat that BEV drivers can at least charge via either L1/L2 elsewhere (assuming the EVSE doesn't have communication, connection or safety issues such as the ones we've all read about here, or in some cases personally experienced). CCS have also had their teething issues, although as a follower they seem to be somewhat less than CHAdeMO. The link I provided to the Tucson FCV owner's topic upthread makes the same points as are in the GCR article (may be the same person on Facebook, for all I know). That's the chance you take by being an early adopter.

* Of course, it's possible that FirstElement will turn out to be another Ecotality/350Green, not maintaining the systems. I don't see Toyota putting up with that.

 

[mtndrew1]

That certainly makes sense and it'll be a while before we know for sure how reliable these things are long term.

That said, the selling point of an H2 car is that you just swap filling up with gasoline with filling up with hydrogen. It's a similar workflow, similar speed, and similar price. It's also your only option for making your car provide viable transportation. When Toyota customers in the Fall start making a $58,000 decision, the ease and speed of fueling will be the cornerstone of the choice to go FCEV.

Whereas hiccups in public EV charging can be a major inconvenience, hiccups with H2 supply can render a vehicle absolutely useless. There's far less room for error on the H2 side, it just has to work quickly and consistently for the cars to be useful.

Part of the appeal of EVs to me when switching from gasoline was that no matter what I could get juice into the car, even if very slowly with the 120V portable charge cable.

If we're only 90 days away from the Mirai launch and the existing infrastructure is insufficient for the current 100 or so H2 cars on the road, it doesn't point to a successful launch.

 

[Zythryn]

The lack of promised fueling stations is another issue.
While I understand this is at an early adopter stage, it really should be an internal beta test stage.

With BEVs no public infrastructure is needed to at least test the cars with the public.
With FCEVs, public infrastructure needs to be relied upon 100%. There is no backup.

These are not yet ready for early adopters. Keep testing them in tighly controlled small fleet operations.
Once a pump can be built that will support more than 10 cars or so, ramp it up.

 

[GRA]

The lack of promised fueling stations is another issue.
While I understand this is at an early adopter stage, it really should be an internal beta test stage.

With BEVs no public infrastructure is needed to at least test the cars with the public.
With FCEVs, public infrastructure needs to be relied upon 100%. There is no backup.

These are not yet ready for early adopters. Keep testing them in tighly controlled small fleet operations.
Once a pump can be built that will support more than 10 cars or so, ramp it up.

That is exactly what's being done now. Just look at the specs for the installs to date at UC Irvine - the current upgrade will be the fourth generation:

Overview

Working closely with Air Products and Chemicals, Inc., NFCRC installed the first hydrogen fueling station in Orange County, CA. The UC Irvine Hydrogen Fueling Station has evolved over time in its configuration and utilization as the need for hydrogen fueling in the area has increased.

First Generation Hydrogen Fueling Station

The first generation fueling system, the Air Products "SFC-2," was commissioned in January 2003. Key features include:

Trucked in gaseous hydrogen supply via a "jumbo" tube trailer, which can hold up to 280 kg of hydrogen fuel when full
Two fill per day design capacity
Pneumatically driven hydrogen compressor

Lessons learned:

Positive: Fueling procedure is simple and easily learned
Negative: Hydrogen compressor reliability is a challenge
The NFCRC SFC-2 provided 76 successful hydrogen fills before it was replaced with the second generation system.

Second Generation Hydrogen Fueling Station

The second generation fueling system, the Air Products "Series 100," was commissioned in November 2003. Key features include:

Aesthetically pleasing "commercial" packaging
Trucked in gaseous hydrogen supply via a smaller tube trailer with up to 110 kg hydrogen storage capacity
Two to three fill per day design capacity
Pneumatically driven hydrogen compressor

Lessons learned:

Positive: Packaging important in conveying viability of technology
Negative: Hydrogen compressor reliability is a challenge

The NFCRC Series 100 had provided hundreds of successful hydrogen fills by the time it was removed in June 2006. The system was removed to make room for the third generation Hydrogen Fueling Station at UC Irvine.

Third Generation Hydrogen Fueling Station

The third generation fueling system, with the Air Products “Series 200” at its core, was built during the third quarter of 2006. Funding has been provided by the South Coast Air Quality Management District, U.S. Department of Energy, Toyota, Honda and BMW. Key features include:

Trucked in liquid hydrogen supply
25 kg/day design capacity (equivalent to 25 gal/day of gasoline, sufficient to refuel 8 fuel cell vehicles) with room to expand to 50 kg/day
350 bar (Phase l), 700 bar (Phase ll) and liquid (Phase lll) fueling capability

Standalone fueling island for more traditional fueling experience

http://www.nfcrc.uci.edu/3/research/keyInitiatives/hydrogen/IrvineHydrogenFuelingStation.aspx

As can be seen, none of the generations so far was ever designed for high throughput ops, or even 700 bar fills (originally). Compare that with the design capacities described for upcoming stations last year (page 7), which are a minimum of 100kg/day with most at 180 kg/day, and one at 350kg./day, with faster transfer rates: http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review14/dunwoody_plenary_2014_amr.pdf

They are running somewhat behind schedule, but that's hardly unexpected at this stage.

 

[GRA]

Found a status report for the existing 15 CA stations dated January 2015, which describes equipment, number or refuelings/day, maintenance issues, upgrades etc.: http://www.energy.ca.gov/2015publications/CEC-600-2015-004/CEC-600-2015-004.pdf

From the Executive summary on page 2:

Findings

Some general observations are offered based on the interviews, site visits, and follow-up
research that were conducted.

• Regarding the 14 Southern California hydrogen stations visited, no two had
identical designs and installations. Only the stations in Riverside and Santa
Monica were similar.

• Most of the existing stations represent early generation design and technology.
The operation of these stations has provided valuable lessons to technology
developers, owners/operators, automakers, fuel cell vehicle drivers, first
responders, code enforcement officials, and the public. These early generation
designs and technologies are not easily upgraded; however, the lessons learned
from them over the last few years have resulted in significant technical evolution.

• During the study, several hydrogen stations were down and not available for
refueling vehicles. The problems ranged from computer “glitches” that were
easily rectified in a matter of hours to equipment failures that necessitated
extended shutdown times (several weeks for one station).

• A common theme for all of the owner/operators was their need for a “Weights
and Measures” certified, point-of-sale hydrogen dispenser. There are strong
interest and demand by the owner/operators for such a system so that they can
begin selling the hydrogen they provide to users and start recovering some of
their costs. Reportedly, without such a dispenser, it is difficult to create a viable
business model. . . .[GRA Note: such a system was certified since this report was published]

 

[Zythryn]

No doubt they've been learning a lot from the early generation hydrogen refueling stations.
What I am saying, is that they are not yet at the stage where they can roll out these vehicles for general purchases.

They need to continue improving these until they reach a higher level of reliability. If the FCVs are released BEFORE the refueling stations are reliable, they are basically shooting themselves in the foot.

They also need to make sure people that want to lease are prepared to not be able to rely on the refueling infrastructure.

 

[GRA]

No doubt they've been learning a lot from the early generation hydrogen refueling stations.
What I am saying, is that they are not yet at the stage where they can roll out these vehicles for general purchases.

They need to continue improving these until they reach a higher level of reliability. If the FCVs are released BEFORE the refueling stations are reliable, they are basically shooting themselves in the foot.

They also need to make sure people that want to lease are prepared to not be able to rely on the refueling infrastructure.

My point is that they are now rolling out the first standardized commercial-scale fueling stations (I believe Diamond Bar [Edit: maybe not Diamond Bar] and West Sacramento are both in that category), having incorporated the lessons learned in the development stations, so they must feel that they have reached an acceptable stage of reliability, as well as sufficient station density (once the other new stations come online between now and Mirai introduction) to provide the necessary redundancy. Toyota certainly knows that they need adequate fueling infrastructure, and given their corporate philosophy, I don't doubt that they will delay the introduction of the Mirai in any area which lacks an acceptable fueling infrastructure. Which is, after all, why the introduction is to such limited areas initially, in such limited numbers.

 

[edatoakrun]

This disaster was inevitable.

It seems that many government employees, judging the competence of their efforts by the extreme reliability of their own paychecks, just assume that they can replace markets with command and control structures to deliver goods and services, just as reliably.

At least the failure of CARB (and other California government agencies) to do anything to promote the growth of market-based public DC charging in California has done only limited the damage to BEV deliveries, since you can always slow charge a BEV on AC somewhere, even if that is after riding the flatbed of shame back to your own garage.

But if there are no functional H stations within towing distance, I guess you just have the AAA truck driver roll your FCV into your garage, and then you wait...

CA Fuel-Cell Car Drivers Say Hydrogen Fuel Unavailable, Stations Don't Work

While they enjoy driving their cars, early lessees of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in Southern California are complaining that they can't reliably fuel them at the handful of stations now supposedly operating in their region.

The stations are frequently inoperative, they say, closed for days or weeks at a time.

Moreover, when the stations are functioning properly, they sometimes can only fuel one or two cars before an hour-long wait is required--and some stations can only fuel the cars to half-full.

A private Facebook group for drivers of the Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell SUV overflows with complaints about these issues, and the lack of accountability among the several different parties who oversee pieces of the nascent hydrogen fueling infrastructure.

Hyundai includes unlimited free hydrogen fuel as part of its $499 monthly lease cost (with $3,000 due at signing).

But neither Hyundai nor Toyota, which is in the process of launching its hydrogen-powered 2016 Mirai, is responsible for providing the fuel or ensuring a functioning infrastructure.

Instead, that task falls to a variety of organizations that own or operate the stations.

Contacted by Green Car Reports, Hyundai spokesman Derek Joyce deferred questions on fueling infrastructure for hydrogen vehicles to a representative from the California Governor's office.

(If we receive a statement from that office on the progress of Southern California's hydrogen fueling infrastructure, we'll update this article.)

Last year, the state of California committed $100 million over five years to building 100 hydrogen fueling stations in the state by 2020, in partnership with Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda, and private companies like First Element Fuel as well.

Early lessee Paul Berkman of Corona del Mar, for one, is frustrated.

He's paying $500 a month for a vehicle he hasn't been able to drive for five weeks, because all three hydrogen stations within 20 minutes of his home or workplace have been down for more than a month....

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099082_ca-fuel-cell-car-drivers-says-hydrogen-fuel-unavailable-stations-dont-work