How to put out a Lithium Battery Fire

[garygid]

I think that no knowledgeable person said that water
was actually safe to use.

And, all types of Lithium ion batteries are NOT the same.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think that no knowledgeable person said that water
was actually safe to use.

And, all types of Lithium ion batteries are NOT the same.

Yes, I didn't get that water was preferred. Water merely cools the surrounding cells to prevent further spread of the fire.

They mentioned halon and water (both readily available on aircraft), and specified the different roles of each. Somebody mentioned "just get out of the car" if it's on fire, and like all "one size fits all" answers, what if the car were in my garage and threatening my house (and I just happen to be storing the Mona Lisa for the week)? I want to at least try to put the fire out.

Obviously, these issues are generally more pressing at sea or in the air.

Whether the folks who wrote the article are knowledgable or not, or don't think we have conclusive evidence that they are not knowledgable, particularly since they developed and offer the training.

 

[linkim]

Tony and Gary, I think water is mentioned because it is readily available and most of the fires so far were encountered with small batteries and its use could reduce the temperature of the "decomposing" cell. Even small 18650 cells can "burn" with high intensity and an explosion is a possibility. I visited a Japanese Li-ion battery plant once and saw their safety test facility for battery packs (about HEV size of a few kWhs). The test facility was about the size of small room in which the researcher can walk into, but made of stainless steel and a spherical shape chamber. They never showed us a test in the chamber, but there are videos available of thermal runaway of small Li-ion cells. The fires and explosions of small cells are very dramatic.

With a large Li-ion battery pack, extinguishing the battery fire quickly to avoid thermal runaway is significantly more difficult. Even a lack of oxygen in the ambient environment may not be sufficient to prevent a hydrogen explosion (if generated from decomposition of the electrolyte or other source) because at sufficiently high temperature, oxygen will be released by decomposition of the cathode which could react with H2. To avoid this type of event, a passive thermal management system using phase-change materials with the Li-ion battery pack has been employed on some e-scooters and e-bikes.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

This is an interesting thread. What I've gotten from it so far is that the Leaf"s version of Li Battery is safer than most, and safer than gas. Also that water will help to cool the surrounding cells and buy some time to get the fire dept involved or deploy an extinguisher.

But it also raises several more questions:

What is the chance of a fire in a Leaf pack?
Under what conditions? Hot ambient temp charging? Shorts?
Is there a recorded instance of a Leaf pack fire?
Is there a link to any data Nissan might have?
If a fire occurs, can I pop it into neutral to roll it out of the garage? Don't think I could turn the car on.
How can I access a burning pack to cool or extinguish it? Stick my garden hose into the access hole in front of the rear seat where the disconnect is? Don't see how an extinguisher could reach any of the cells.
What would a fire look like in a Leaf? Heat? Smell? Toxic smoke? Explosions?

I'll gowatch that video now. Thanks for the info. Good safety tip.

 

[TonyWilliams]

This is an interesting thread. What I've gotten from it so far is that the Leaf"s version of Li Battery is safer than most, and safer than gas. Also that water will help to cool the surrounding cells and buy some time to get the fire dept involved or deploy an extinguisher.

But it also raises several more questions:

What is the chance of a fire in a Leaf pack?

Extremely low.

Under what conditions? Hot ambient temp charging? Shorts?

Probably a collision or an external fire that spreads to the LEAF. The car will automatically shut down for an over temp while charging. The only shorts will be when either a human introduces it or there's an accident.

Is there a recorded instance of a Leaf pack fire?

Not once. Not even a publicized testing fire / explosion.

Is there a link to any data Nissan might have?

About fires that didn't happen, or how to put out a fire? There's probably mention of fire issues in the first responders manual, but it will pertain to not electrocuting somebody.

If a fire occurs, can I pop it into neutral to roll it out of the garage? Don't think I could turn the car on.

I'm going to assume that won't work, because if the battery is on fire, the entire electrical system is suspect. I guess it probably couldn't hurt (much) to try, since the battery isn't likely to explode.

How can I access a burning pack to cool or extinguish it? Stick my garden hose into the access hole in front of the rear seat where the disconnect is? Don't see how an extinguisher could reach any of the cells.
What would a fire look like in a Leaf? Heat? Smell? Toxic smoke? Explosions?

You don't have access to the cells, but you may be able to put a garden hose through the floor opening for the battery fuse/master disconnect. That might keep things under wrap until the professionals arrive.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

OK, reassured, thanks.

Did find this story, if battery pack can survive that, I won't worry much.


http://www.autoevolution.com/news/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-survives-massive-fire-48268.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

From the Toyota Rav4 EV First Responders Guide:

Extinguishing Agent Water has been proven to be a suitable extinguishing agent.

Initial Fire Attack Perform a fast, aggressive fire attack. Divert the runoff from entering watershed areas. Attack teams may not be able to identify a RAV4 EV until the fire has been knocked down and overhaul operations have commenced.

Fire When Vehicle Charging When extinguishing a fire when charging, the vehicle and charge cable assembly may come in contact with water. As soon as possible, shut off the power to the electrical outlet before disconnecting the charge cable assembly. Perform the charge cable assembly disconnection procedure contained in the Extrication section on page 24.

Fire in the EV Battery Assembly Should a fire occur in the Li-ion EV battery assembly, attack crews should utilize a water stream or fog pattern to extinguish any fire within the vehicle except for the EV battery assembly.

 

[Ingineer]

My opinion is that water is a good choice for a battery fire, EXCEPT where the pack is high-voltage, and water could lead to electrocution of people involved.

The Leaf, the Rav4, and the Tesla battery packs are all contained in hermetic metal cases. (the volt apparently uses plastic) You cannot get water into these cases easily, and I would hesitate to puncture the case (thus admitting oxygen).

Unless one of these cars is involved in a severe collision, I don't see any concern over a fire. If you are in a severe enough collision to warrant concern for the battery, you likely won't be alive to care. In the unlikely event you ever witness your pack smoking/swelling/venting, get the car safely outside if you can, and then stand back. I would not bother trying to get water on it.

In the Leaf, even if the traction pack is removed/disconnected, the 12v battery will still allow you to shift the car into N as long as it has charge and the electrical system is intact.

Bottom line is you are probably a million times more likely to die in a car accident than to suffer a catastrophic battery fire.

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

Bottom line is you are probably a million times more likely to die in a car accident than to suffer a catastrophic battery fire.

-Phil

Certainly true for a car... not so true for an airplane where fire and smoke don't always end so well.

 

[CasperNleaf]

I'm pretty sure that the battery pack in the Leaf is Lithium-manganese which has less energy density than traditional Li-ion but are more resistant to damage from extreme temps as well as being harder to ignite.

There is a long, boring, and technical video on youtube that discusses this.

 

[hill]

That does it ... no more lithium for me . . . . . . I'm going back to a safer fuel . . . gasoline

 

[ksnogas2112]

That does it ... no more lithium for me . . . . . . I'm going back to a safer fuel . . . gasoline

muaahhaaaa