How long 'til 4th bar drops?

[mwalsh]

I've been following this thread for months now since I lost my 3rd bar somewhere around 55,000. Now I'm almost at end of warranty 59,887 miles and my 9th bar refuses to drop. My Leaf Spy Pro numbers are: 42.34 Ahr 64% SOH 43.35 Hx

It's so frustrating owning a car that I love but can't drive. It just sits in the driveway all week charged at 100%. I'm so sick of this waiting game! The car is obviously below 70% capacity. I can't afford to sell it...I can't afford to buy a new battery...the range has dropped so low I can't drive it to work. So it just sits there collecting dust.

That is rock and hard place. If it were me, I'd do a few "drives to nowhere" for the last 100 miles (remembering to leave you enough miles to drive to the dealer if necessary), maybe 3 x 30 mile trips, interspersed with using the climate control to deplete charge. The thing is...we don't know what will trigger the bar to disappear (God knows I wish we did!), so you gotta throw a little bit of everything at it to try and find something that works. I have a feeling that just letting the car sit won't, and you need to put it through a few charge cycles if nothing else.

Yes, clearly our cars are below 70% capacity. Most of us think that they're already below 66.25% of capacity, but of course we have no way of proving it that Nissan will accept.

This is the fallacy of the "below 9 bars" warranty. If below 9 bars IS 66.25% of capacity, then it's of WHAT capacity? Is it the case that those of us who got a shitty original capacity pack get doubly screwed over by having to wait until we're at 66.25% of that? That's the only reason I can come up with for the loss of bars to have such a wide range of values. I'm my mind, the 66.25% should be of the capacity a new LEAF is supposed to have, and each car should switch bars off at (more or less) a fixed value. Not at a value for bar 9 that could be anything from 64%-66%, or a 1.5AHr spread! It's completely ridiculous.

Edit: Actually ^ assumes the values we're getting from the various Gid devices are valid. So you know what, if Nissan disagrees let them show us the actual remaining capacity of our cars when we go in for the annual battery check!

 

[Evoforce]

I'm at 42.64AHr and still at 9 bars SOH 65%. Looking for quick sand not rock and a hard place.

 

[knightmb]

I've been following this thread for months now since I lost my 3rd bar somewhere around 55,000. Now I'm almost at end of warranty 59,887 miles and my 9th bar refuses to drop. My Leaf Spy Pro numbers are: 42.34 Ahr 64% SOH 43.35 Hx

It's so frustrating owning a car that I love but can't drive. It just sits in the driveway all week charged at 100%. I'm so sick of this waiting game! The car is obviously below 70% capacity. I can't afford to sell it...I can't afford to buy a new battery...the range has dropped so low I can't drive it to work. So it just sits there collecting dust.

I can think of a way, though it will waste useful electricity unfortunately. Still cheaper than buying a new battery.

Start the vehicle at 100% charge and then roll down the windows, turn the heat on highest fan, highest temp and let the car sit and burn 6Kw until the battery is depleted to about 60% charge, then charge the car back up and do the process all over again. Buy not fully depleting, but fully charging, that should start lowering the capacity numbers and it won't show up as anything extreme on the battery history (like sitting at 0% charge for a week, etc.)

 

[edatoakrun]

For those of you who drive more-than-average miles per year who really want to defraud Nissan and get your battery replaced under the five year/60,000 mile nine capacity bar warrantee, I'd suggest an alternative that will not require any extreme vandalism, but it requires some advanced planning.

Replacing the stock tires with those of a larger circumference will lower the odometer's tally of miles driven, compared to the actual miles you drive.

This will probably also reduce the actual m/kWh efficiency slightly, mostly due to higher rolling/aero resistance, but what the hell, the small increase in battery cycling will also slightly accelerate battery capacity degradation, and that's your goal anyway, right?

I've been following this thread for months now since I lost my 3rd bar somewhere around 55,000. Now I'm almost at end of warranty 59,887 miles and my 9th bar refuses to drop. My Leaf Spy Pro numbers are: 42.34 Ahr 64% SOH 43.35 Hx

It's so frustrating owning a car that I love but can't drive. It just sits in the driveway all week charged at 100%. I'm so sick of this waiting game! The car is obviously below 70% capacity. I can't afford to sell it...I can't afford to buy a new battery...the range has dropped so low I can't drive it to work. So it just sits there collecting dust.

I can think of a way, though it will waste useful electricity unfortunately. Still cheaper than buying a new battery.

Start the vehicle at 100% charge and then roll down the windows, turn the heat on highest fan, highest temp and let the car sit and burn 6Kw until the battery is depleted to about 60% charge, then charge the car back up and do the process all over again. Buy not fully depleting, but fully charging, that should start lowering the capacity numbers and it won't show up as anything extreme on the battery history (like sitting at 0% charge for a week, etc.)

Of course, the real victims of Nissans disingenuous five year/60,000 mile nine capacity bar warrantee are those who drive ~the average or median miles per year or less, not the much smaller number of LEAF drivers who will put 60k on the odometer in under five years.

Had your representatives in the class action actually put the needs of the class before their own, the warrantee would have reflected the actual miles most LEAF drivers put on their BEVs, and have warrantied the battery for ~10,000 miles for each year of ownership, ~ the actual average number of miles driven each year per LEAF.

 

[kolmstead]

Low discharge rates, like 6 kW, do little to degrade the battery. Heat kills batteries. To generate significant amounts of heat, you need to run the car hard. Running 60 mph up the Sierra Nevada mountains, I see 35-55 kW continuous draw. Using the entire charge at that power level will raise battery temp by 15 or 20 degrees. If you can QC and do it again, you can run the battery temps up as high as you want in just a few hours.

I doubt that you could ever cause measurable degradation running the heater or air conditioning, unless you were willing to spend years in the attempt. What is normal cycling loss for a lithium battery, maybe 0.01% per charge/discharge cycle? If you're bumping up against the 60 K mileage limit, your only hope is probably just to park the car and wait and hope.

-Karl

 

[LeafSwe]

Some novice tips for loosing 4th bar.
On newer leafs AHr and Hx will rise after hard driving and quick charging, at least momentarly, have many exampels of that here in sweden and norway. But japanleaf's battery may not have the same behavior.
Have seen one car with low milage that had lost a bar very early in life here in cold climate, that car had stand still for long time at dealer, probably at 100% SOC.
If you are very near 60000miles like Hoosier, let it stand att 100%, run the ac to get to 80% and the charge to 100. Watch how the Hx changes, if it lowers, you probably get a lower AHr at next startup.
Nissan cant forbid you to use your car as a camper car; use heat and ac with no milage.

 

[fooljoe]

Low discharge rates, like 6 kW, do little to degrade the battery. Heat kills batteries. To generate significant amounts of heat, you need to run the car hard. Running 60 mph up the Sierra Nevada mountains, I see 35-55 kW continuous draw. Using the entire charge at that power level will raise battery temp by 15 or 20 degrees. If you can QC and do it again, you can run the battery temps up as high as you want in just a few hours.

I doubt that you could ever cause measurable degradation running the heater or air conditioning, unless you were willing to spend years in the attempt. What is normal cycling loss for a lithium battery, maybe 0.01% per charge/discharge cycle? If you're bumping up against the 60 K mileage limit, your only hope is probably just to park the car and wait and hope.

The likely theory seems to be that there's a capacity threshold somewhere above 43.5 Ah that must be crossed, then there's some sort of waiting period before the bar's dropped. Clearly Hoosier's battery has already degraded enough to be below the threshold, being at ~42.3 Ah.

So the idea of additional cycling is not to try to degrade the battery further, but to get through the waiting period. If the waiting period is based on time, then yeah he could just park and wait; if it's based on charges, then he needs to do some sort of cycling; if it's based on miles, then it's pretty much hopeless. And of course it could be based on none of those, or some combination, or something else entirely. :?

 

[kolmstead]

fooljoe, I think that your post sums the situation up nicely. We don't really have a clue how the bar loss algorithm works, so if you're running out of time, you might as well try something. Anything. I'm in the "just wait and hope" mode now; it is so cool here that degradation has pretty much stopped. Turtled the car tonight, saw 85 degree battery temp. My car's battery is at 42.67 Ahr.

-Karl

 

[hillzofvalp]

I'm super annoyed by Nissan. Been through a lot with them recently and all I arrived at is no one knows what the hell they are talking about.

I bought another Leaf because my other one is not 40 miles from reaching capacity warranty expiration. I'm at 67-68%. I saw it at 44.21Ah but it jumped all the way up to 44.82 and has been frozen there ever since temps dropped below 70 it seems. Annoying. I hate Nissan now and I'm not buying any more Nissan EV products unless I'm profiting off them. I'm hoping to get two free batteries instead of 1 now.

44.82 68% SOH 47.41% Hx

I remember last spring I lost 4% SOH in a matter of a couple weeks, as if if the BMS doesn't update the SOH below certain temps. I guess that tells me i should lose about 4% between now and March, though since it's just going to be sitting outside with no use, it may be slower?

What do you guys think?

 

[dm33]

What do you guys think?

You can still abuse it even when cold and not putting miles on it.
Cycle it, but don't drive it. Let it stay at 100% and in as hot a garage as you can get.
Charge to 100%. Turn on the car, run heat maxed out. Heating up the garage, burning up your electric bill unfortunately. Can leave it do its business. Can heat up the garage. Let it wind down to VLB or so. Rinse and repeat.
Would be worth it to me to get a new battery and avoid $5000 in replacement cost.

 

[hillzofvalp]

I haven't actually bought the other leaf yet but was going to close on. 9500$ 2013 S with charge package next week.. Currently being inspected.

However I'm faced with the worry that it will depreciate to $4000 when it hits 60k and I'll basically be stuck with both cars when the market is flooded with everyone getting rid of their 8 bar machines and the 2016s and 2017s coming.

Maybe the replacement battery is worth it?

 

[hillzofvalp]

I don't have a hot garage and the only one I could get access to is 80/mo and might have 110 feeding the door opener and that's it

 

[hillzofvalp]

Has anyone ever figured out of the car records mileage On a dyno if the gps is not seeing movement but the motor is...

 

[mwalsh]

fooljoe, I think that your post sums the situation up nicely. We don't really have a clue how the bar loss algorithm works, so if you're running out of time, you might as well try something. Anything. I'm in the "just wait and hope" mode now; it is so cool here that degradation has pretty much stopped. Turtled the car tonight, saw 85 degree battery temp. My car's battery is at 42.67 Ahr.

-Karl

Well, as you know, despite some pretty oppressive weather in the last couple of weeks especially, my degradation has been essentially flat for the last 30 days. Excluding the wildest upswings, it's bouncing around in a .25AHr range between 42.75AHr and 43AHr.

I'm taking this to mean that I'm going to loose bar 9 within that range pretty soon.

Or not.

 

[dhanson865]

Has anyone ever figured out of the car records mileage On a dyno if the gps is not seeing movement but the motor is...

2 wheel dyno?

Front wheels are drive wheels.

All 4 wheels have rotation sensors for stability control / ABS.

Car does odometer based on rear wheel rotation?

Or does the odometer rack up miles even on a dyno?

I assume you are asking to see if a 59,999 mile car can be exercised on a dyno to drop bar 4 without racking up miles?

 

[mwalsh]

I assume you are asking to see if a 59,999 mile car can be exercised on a dyno to drop bar 4 without racking up miles?

If this is possible, do it the "shade tree" (read: dangerous) way and put the front end up on jack stands. I don't think I could afford enough dyno time for this to make sense. Maybe take the front wheels off and definitely make it inaccessible to anyone while it's running to be a bit safer. Plus side - you can do it in a garage with the garage door down and you won't die of carbon monoxide poisoning! :mrgreen: Downside - you won't use energy as quickly without friction from the road.

Now, anyone know how to go back in time, so I can get more days before my warranty expires? And, no, speeding to 88mph on October 21st won't work. And even if it did, I believe I'd end up in the Old West.

 

[Lance96816]

I'm a newbie here.
So much questions.
When and how is the replacement battery pack done?
How are you reading this 49-63 amp/hour?
When you say you have 60% capacity, where are you seeing this?
After reading so many different threads, I'm at a lost of when does the warranty end. And how do I find my battery condition.
Thanks.

 

[cwerdna]

When and how is the replacement battery pack done?
How are you reading this 49-63 amp/hour?
When you say you have 60% capacity, where are you seeing this?
After reading so many different threads, I'm at a lost of when does the warranty end. And how do I find my battery condition.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192. All 2013-2015 Leafs also have this capacity warranty.

People are using tools like Leaf Spy (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285 and http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Leaf_Spy_Pro). Start off with http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14284 to make sure your setup is working before going to a paid one. The Android version will require a Bluetooth OBD2 dongle like http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Leaf_Spy_Pro#Clone_ELM327_Bluetooth_Scanner.

There's also an iOS version.

There are some other tools but I have no experience with them.

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Capacity_Behavior

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss has a pic of a 3-bar loser.

 

[theoldchum]

My 2011 is @ 42.36AH and 64SOH and still clinging on to bar 9. OD is 30,657. I think I'll drop within the week.

 

[mwalsh]

My 2011 is @ 42.36AH and 64SOH and still clinging on to bar 9. OD is 30,657. I think I'll drop within the week.

Or not. :lol:


Did you notice any strange behavior like we have - occasional AHr reading with extreme upward swings? Or sticking around the same reading, or the same narrow range, for days/weeks upon end?