How can you use battery capacity without driving? Can this improve battery capacity?

[jpadc]

I'm lucky I don't have to drive so much but it's not helping the usable capacity of my Leaf. Maybe it's extending the degradation but I want more usable capacity now and do not care what happens after 3 years. (I of course do everything I can to take care of it, least amount of heat, charge at coolest times of day, etc...)

Well, I plan to keep mine a long time so doing what I can, given like you I don't put a lot of miles on the car, to keep the battery as healthy as possible for as long as possible.

Thanks for raising these issues LeafMuranoDriver

 

[Evoforce]

The batteries are not improved over any year. They are degrading the same based on identical circumstances and climate. Other than larger kWh capacity, we don't know if the 2016's are any better. I suspect not because lizard batteries are not any better as promoted either.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

in a blog I posted yesterday with readings taken yesterday. granted its a 2013 but there is some loss on the 2015. not a lot which is what we all wanted right? this still does not mean that "exercising" the battery makes it stronger in the long term. I think we are still wrestling with the inadequacy of precise charge measurements. lets not let these small improvements lead us to believe that we have actually made our battery stronger

As someone with 30,000 miles on my MY2011 LEAF which now shows 52.0Ah, I will say I am impressed to see you have over 66Ah of capacity in your MY2013 after driving MORE miles.

Clearly some improvements have been made, both in the battery AND in the ability of the OBC to fully charge the battery as it degrades.

Reviewing the obvious; the usable capacity of the 2013 is larger or the car is more efficient. I think its a combination of both. In my job of driving, its critical to know how far I can do and in what time frame.

I have anxiously awaited a time when I could compare numbers between my 2011 and 2013 when they hit the same mileage levels which I am just now getting to. I started using GIDmeter but want to compare LEAF Spy to LEAF Spy. Pressing work needs has left me little spare time but that comparison is coming soon and it all looks good.

Finally; I think I need to adjust my position on timed based degradation verses charge level. It appears to be more of a factor than I had thought especially with some of the LEAFs here where the climate is as close to a non issue as you can get

 

[jpadc]

The batteries are not improved over any year. They are degrading the same based on identical circumstances and climate.

Well, I have no idea what changes were made to batteries over the years between 2011 and 2016 but I don't think there were a lot of reports of 2 year old 2011's with 60k miles and no lost battery bars. Now every circumstance and climate can't be entirely controlled, but it does seem evident that at least some 2013 batteries are not degrading as fast as many 2011 and 2012's did. I don't know if we know the reason (and it may not be changes to the batteries - maybe its changes to the onboard charger and charger programming), but I think these discussions and collective user experiences might help us understand it better.

 

[dhanson865]

In every case where a knowledgeable mynissanleaf / leafspy user has had a 2011 or 2012 then upgraded to a 2013 or 2015 they've found no noticeable difference in degradation rates.

I think the 2013 users that don't see loss are the same people that wouldn't have seen loss on a 2011.

 

[Evoforce]

In every case where a knowledgeable mynissanleaf / leafspy user has had a 2011 or 2012 then upgraded to a 2013 or 2015 they've found no noticeable difference in degradation rates.

I think the 2013 users that don't see loss are the same people that wouldn't have seen loss on a 2011.

+1

 

[minispeed]

In every case where a knowledgeable mynissanleaf / leafspy user has had a 2011 or 2012 then upgraded to a 2013 or 2015 they've found no noticeable difference in degradation rates.

I think the 2013 users that don't see loss are the same people that wouldn't have seen loss on a 2011.

Over a year ago now I met locally with a knowledgeable leaf owner who 3D printed holsters for my EVSE. Now it's not apples to apples since his car was 3 years old at the time and mine is now 1.5 but his 2011 was at 86% in the same climate that has my 2015 (1.5 years on the road now since I got a very early one) at 100%.

I think it's safe to say that his 100-86% didn't happen after the 1.5 year mark. I don't remember how much he drove but he did talk about using public EVSE's so I doubt his car was one that was sitting at 100% for long periods. My cousin also has a 2014 that is 22 months on the road now and was sitting on a dealer lot when he got it (compared to mine being in transit from the factory when I bought). I haven't been tracking his as much but the SOH still showed 100% last month.

 

[dhanson865]

In every case where a knowledgeable mynissanleaf / leafspy user has had a 2011 or 2012 then upgraded to a 2013 or 2015 they've found no noticeable difference in degradation rates.

I think the 2013 users that don't see loss are the same people that wouldn't have seen loss on a 2011.

Over a year ago now I met locally with a knowledgeable leaf owner who 3D printed holsters for my EVSE. Now it's not apples to apples since his car was 3 years old at the time and mine is now 1.5 but his 2011 was at 86% in the same climate that has my 2015 (1.5 years on the road now since I got a very early one) at 100%.

I think it's safe to say that his 100-86% didn't happen after the 1.5 year mark. I don't remember how much he drove but he did talk about using public EVSE's so I doubt his car was one that was sitting at 100% for long periods. My cousin also has a 2014 that is 22 months on the road now and was sitting on a dealer lot when he got it (compared to mine being in transit from the factory when I bought). I haven't been tracking his as much but the SOH still showed 100% last month.

In Canada?

OK let me add south of the 40th parallel to that

In every case where a knowledgeable mynissanleaf / leafspy user that lives south of the 40th parallel and has had a 2011 or 2012 then upgraded to a 2013 or 2015 they've found no noticeable difference in degradation rates.

 

[jpadc]

In every case where a knowledgeable mynissanleaf / leafspy user has had a 2011 or 2012 then upgraded to a 2013 or 2015 they've found no noticeable difference in degradation rates.

I think the 2013 users that don't see loss are the same people that wouldn't have seen loss on a 2011.

There were 2011 owners that got over 60k miles with no battery bar losses? If things have not changed at all I would expect to see a similar class action lawsuit as the one that applied to the 2011-2012s and I've not seen a peep on that.

 

[Valdemar]

There were 2011 owners that got over 60k miles with no battery bar losses?

Yup: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12781&p=291620#p291620

 

[jpadc]

Yup: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12781&p=291620#p291620

Interesting that this person was charging to 100% twice a day and commuting 60+ miles per day. This is what this thread is really about which is IF using and cycling the battery more seems to lead to better long-term outcomes than those of us that use the battery (and car) less. And this is another example that supports that view.

 

[Valdemar]

Yup: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12781&p=291620#p291620

Interesting that this person was charging to 100% twice a day and commuting 60+ miles per day. This is what this thread is really about which is IF using and cycling the battery more seems to lead to better long-term outcomes than those of us that use the battery (and car) less. And this is another example that supports that view.

It is more about time and temperature and less about cycling. Plenty of people lost 4 bars after 4 years in SoCal with less than 50k miles on the odometer. My forth bar went at almost 80k miles after the same 4 years. It is possible that new packs can withstand cycling even better, but have the same sensitivity to higher temps. This might explain the results we've seen so far where people from warm places observe about the same capacity loss as older packs, and others in cooler climates can do 100k without losing a bar.

 

[powersurge]

I also drive 60-70 miles daily. I have not seen any degradation on the battery after 13 months. I think that it is correct that time in service is a primary limiter of the battery, and running the car to a low level would be another. otherwise, this car is made to be used as much as possible, with as many miles you can throw at it!!

 

[jpadc]

It is more about time and temperature and less about cycling. Plenty of people lost 4 bars after 4 years in SoCal with less than 50k miles on the odometer. My forth bar went at almost 80k miles after the same 4 years. It is possible that new packs can withstand cycling even better, but have the same sensitivity to higher temps. This might explain the results we've seen so far where people from warm places observe about the same capacity loss as older packs, and others in cooler climates can do 100k without losing a bar.

Which I think is the issue here. I don't know if newer packs (2013+) are better in higher temps (if not then another class action lawsuit may be in order there), but cars in more temperate climates that see more use over time (which I call cycling) do seem to hold up better than ones that see less use. That is something that I think is important to know.

 

[TimLee]

... 2 drivers can drive the same amount of miles and one could baby it the other floor it and they would have much different cycles on the battery. If you want to only cycle the battery but not cause other wear like tires/brakes/suspension then doing it stationary a few times isn't going to produce any kind of deterioration anywhere near an owner who drives the car like they stole it. ...

Important point.

Capacity degradation is both time and temperature.

Driving style can make a big difference along with QC use in warm weather.

My 2011 LEAF, missing three capacity bars at 33,000 miles and 4 1/2 years use.
When running late have driven at 93 mph quite a few times.
Done 158 QC.

Another same age 2011, missing two capacity bars at 50,000 miles.
Used mostly as 60 mile round trip commuter.
No QC.
Less spirited driving.

High kW drain rate has an impact.
You can see it in battery temps while doing high kW drain driving.

But sitting with defrost running set on 90F high fan speed and pulling 4.5 kW has very little impact on capacity (unless it is in a closed garage and the impact is primarily from the rise in the garage temperature and that causing the pack temperature to go up).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The batteries are not improved over any year. They are degrading the same based on identical circumstances and climate.

Well, I have no idea what changes were made to batteries over the years between 2011 and 2016 but I don't think there were a lot of reports of 2 year old 2011's with 60k miles and no lost battery bars. Now every circumstance and climate can't be entirely controlled, but it does seem evident that at least some 2013 batteries are not degrading as fast as many 2011 and 2012's did. I don't know if we know the reason (and it may not be changes to the batteries - maybe its changes to the onboard charger and charger programming), but I think these discussions and collective user experiences might help us understand it better.

rare yes, unheard of? no.

Steve Marsh had just over 2 years on his 2011 when he lost his first bar at 78,000 miles. However; we need to emphasize that mileage is not the "tell all" many seem to think it is. Time is a factor as well. There are also several 2011-12's in the same area that lost bars after 40,000 miles but also with 4+ years under their belts.

Steve's mileage is an outlier simply because he drove 130+ miles per day. There are several 2013's and newer that have outdistanced 2011-12's by a significant margin all over the country so the improvement is obvious but still not enough.

Also beware of temporary jumps in batt stats after a period of heavy use. They are temporary and misleading