Home on the Range. Leaf Fanboys attack.

[AndyH]

Newsflash - we get to decide what works for us . . .

Right. You are in the percent of one percent who will buy a car you can hardly test drive to pursue an ideal for which you are prepared to make significant compromises.

Negative negative - I say again.

I'm actually NOT prepared to make significant compromises - or even minor ones. Your characterization of how much or little I'll test drive isn't accurate either. I may be wrong here, but it appears to me that you're stacking up your personal expectations and assumptions and using them to evaluate (judge!) other's experiences. Sorry - you don't get to do that! That's 'outside your boat.'

Nothing personal at all, Blue - but please don't confuse the expressions of confidence coming from those for which this car is a good fit with pseudo-religious fanboyism. Apples and oranges.

 

[Stoaty]

You are in the percent of one percent who will buy a car you can hardly test drive to pursue an ideal for which you are prepared to make significant compromises.

A lot of assumptions here. I test drove the car, liked it. I plan to drive it to work and for trips less than 50 miles without charging, which will total about 10,000 miles per year. The rest of my travels will be in my brother's Prius, or for backpacking trips will take the old Camry, which I plan to keep. No compromises for me. Gasoline usage should be decreased by 300-400 gallons per year. My guess is that the Leaf won't work as the only car for most people, but there is probably a very large group of people for which it can be the main commute/errand car.

 

[cdaveb]

Being obsessed with claiming that everyone on this site (AKA Fanboys) has made compromises to drive a LEAF is profoundly ignorant of the product and others peoples lives.

Actually I find it interesting that we're discussing making compromises as if it's such a terrible thing. I mean I agree that the better the electric options get, the less compromises people might have to consider when purchasing them, which means wider adoption. That said, I'm willing to make reasonable compromises for environmental reasons as well as convenience ones. When someone buys a car, they make compromises all the time based on cost, fuel efficiency, space, looks and many other factors.

One of the reasons I looked into my first electric car was because I found stopping for gas to be an inconvenience (on top of my interest in environmental factors). When I researched my options, I found the EV1 was perfect for my needs. Technically I was making the compromise of limiting my range, but it was rare I needed to go long distances, I could find alternative options for those rare occasions, and I gained more convenience in other ways as well making my transit more environmentally friendly. I bike to the subway instead of driving and parking at work, even though it adds time, because again it's more environmentally friendly and I gain the convenience of being able to read while in transit (plus I could use the exercise).

I think lots of folks are willing to make some compromises to gain something else- be it savings on fuel, the feeling of knowing you're helping the environment, etc. The real trick for electrics appealing to the mass market is to make those compromises less significant, but the very existence of some compromises involved doesn't sour the option- it just makes the decisionmaking process more complex and the interested audience smaller.

 

[TRONZ]

Interestingly in our case we have made NO compromises for our new LEAF and instead now have new advantages. Compared to our Honda Civic Hybrid the LEAF;

1- Was $2K less!
2- Has twice the power!
3- Has ALOT more room!
4- Is smoother than any car I have ever owned!
5- Has virtually no maintenance.
6- Has NAV and enough gizmo's to make you dizzy.
7- Has access to HOV lanes and free tolls.
8- Looks far cooler!
9- Is a very useful hatchback.
...etc. etc.

Do I even need to mention the environment, $1.5 cents per mile, no gas stations EVER, never changing our plans once because of range,
...etc, etc.

 

[TRONZ]

Oh I forgot, I am a happy LEAF owner with 2800 miles and love the car (Fanboy) so my opinion does not count compared to BlueSL who may have not even seen a LEAF in person yet. My bad!

 

[mwalsh]

7- Has access to HOV lanes and free tolls.

That last bit isn't right....we have to pay tolls. Unless there is something I don't know?

https://www.thetollroads.com/home/common_general.htm#6

 

[LindsayNB]

It always astounds me how often people way "this doesn't meet my needs so it's junk!". I'm primarily referring to blog comments, and I know that BlueSL has said it does meet his needs, but in way of illustration, if BlueSL's 1% estimate is right that's some 120,000 vehicles a year in the US alone. If only one person in a hundred has their needs met by the leaf then Nissan won't be doing badly at all. Frequently quoted stats on commute distances and number of vehicles per household tend to indicate that the Leaf would work well for a lot more than 1% of drivers. And I'm not sure that the number of people who would buy it would go up if it were more expensive.

I would be curious to know how many people who have bought the Leaf would buy it at full price without any incentives, it seems to me that Nissan is already pushing the top end of what people will pay for a car like the Leaf without adding even more expense to increase the range.

 

[Ready2plugin]

I would be curious to know how many people who have bought the Leaf would buy it at full price without any incentives, it seems to me that Nissan is already pushing the top end of what people will pay for a car like the Leaf without adding even more expense to increase the range.

I would have with a couple conditions...it came with an L2 charging dock and leather heated seats....

 

[Googler]

I believe the EPA rated it at 73 miles.... Shouldn't that range be the range expected? Should you really trust someones marketing department over a test by an independent agency?

I regularly get 49 mph on my commute at 60-75mph in my 2005 prius, but it's rated at 45 highway. The average speed on the EPA highway mileage rating is 48.3 mph http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml Based on that I expected that the 73 mile range of the Leaf was an underestimate. As was pointed out elsewhere, Nissan gave various estimates of the range, but none of them matched the conditions of my commute. http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/26067/

So no - there wasn't very good evidence to extrapolate to my commute. When I charge it at work, leave work with a 100% charge, go about 4 miles on the freeway, the expected range on the dashboard drops to 72.

 

[Googler]

Even at an average kWh cost of 20-30 cents, electricity is cheaper than gas.

It's useful to do the math. At $0.30/kWh (which is my marginal cost from PG&E in an average month), with a 10% loss for charging inefficiency requiring 26kWh to get a full charge giving a range of 80 miles, that works out to $0.0975/mile. Purchasing gasoline at $4.10/gallon getting 49 mpg in my Prius, it works out to $0.08367/mile. Obviously there are many variable factors that will affect things (how fast you drive, what your local price of gasoline is, assumptions about charging efficiency, your marginal cost of electricity, maintenance). These are numbers for my particular life situation. The average US price of electricity from coal-fired power plants is $0.12/kWh, which is the number that is often used to say the Leaf is cheap to drive.

My yearly petroleum-related maintenance for my 2005 Prius is about $100 for two oil changes. Now shall we factor in the cost to replace the Leaf batteries after five years of charging every day?

 

[BlueSL]

Oh I forgot, I am a happy LEAF owner with 2800 miles and love the car (Fanboy) so my opinion does not count compared to BlueSL who may have not even seen a LEAF in person yet. My bad!

Yet another personal attack.

 

[tps]

You are in the percent of one percent who will buy a car you can hardly test drive to pursue an ideal for which you are prepared to make significant compromises.

That situation is changing. LEAFs are starting to show up at rental companies; I drove the Hertz LEAF in NYC for 2.5 hours a couple weeks ago, and I'll likely do it again. I'm in the "forgotten 36" at the opposite end of the spectrum; I've test driven a car I likely will not be able to order! Nissan will likely be into the 2012 MY before I am allowed to order. Will I have to make significant compromises? Well, my test drive was approximately the same length as my daily commute (40 miles), and the LEAF handled that fine. Next time I'll try about 60-65 miles, a trip which I make every two months or so.

Anyway, my impression after 2.5 hours is very positive. I especially liked that the LEAF's response to my accelerator and braking input was instantaneous and precise in a way that I've never experienced in 40 years of driving. The steering seems to be somewhat of a debated topic, so I went in with a somewhat negative bias, but after driving the LEAF for a while, I found no problem (for me) with the steering; it felt like a "normal"car to me. The largest fault I found was the erratic reading of the estimated range display, but hey, the estimated range display in my current car, a 2007 Malibu, is not any better; the Malibu constantly overestimates its range and it also drops erratically. (I think the Malibu's range estimation algorithm might be tuned for "highway" driving, which I don't do a lot of.)

The LEAF will be the first new car I've ever bought. I'm at a point in my life (55 years old) where I'd like to have the experience of driving an electric vehicle every day for a while, so maybe I could say I'm currently compromising every day by driving my current car until I get a chance to own a LEAF... I'll probably have at least a couple more chances to drive the Hertz rental LEAF in NYC before I am allowed to make the decision to commit my own money to Nissan's LEAF, but my bias is fairly positive based on the first 2.5 hours.

 

[edatoakrun]

Even at an average kWh cost of 20-30 cents, electricity is cheaper than gas.

It's useful to do the math. At $0.30/kWh (which is my marginal cost from PG&E in an average month), with a 10% loss for charging inefficiency requiring 26kWh to get a full charge giving a range of 80 miles, that works out to $0.0975/mile. Purchasing gasoline at $4.10/gallon getting 49 mpg in my Prius, it works out to $0.08367/mile. Obviously there are many variable factors that will affect things (how fast you drive, what your local price of gasoline is, assumptions about charging efficiency, your marginal cost of electricity, maintenance). These are numbers for my particular life situation. The average US price of electricity from coal-fired power plants is $0.12/kWh, which is the number that is often used to say the Leaf is cheap to drive.

My yearly petroleum-related maintenance for my 2005 Prius is about $100 for two oil changes. Now shall we factor in the cost to replace the Leaf batteries after five years of charging every day?

If you need new batteries after 5 years, they will be replaced under warranty.

Obviously, I was making a generalization about "...cheaper than gas..." that is true for 99% of the gas cars on the road, and even against your Prius, using your other assumptions, at electricity costs of about 25 cents per kWh.

Apparently, Googler, you have made lifestyle choices that cause you to use very large amounts of electricity at home, and also prevent you from avoiding the higher PG&E tier costs by other means, such as installing a second meter, or installing solar panels. I believe it is disingenuous to hold the BEV responsible for your prior energy use decisions which have put you in this situation.

You can solve your BEV power cost problem, by changing your home power consumption, or selling your LEAF, which you have said does not meet your range requirements, anyway.

But complaining about the peculiar situation you put yourself, in by buying a car that does not seem to meet your needs, does not seem particularly useful.

 

[AndyH]

Oh I forgot, I am a happy LEAF owner with 2800 miles and love the car (Fanboy) so my opinion does not count compared to BlueSL who may have not even seen a LEAF in person yet. My bad!

Yet another personal attack.

Blue - it seems we can go in one of two directions here - either have a fact-based non-attribution-type chat where we turn our personal sensitivities down a tad, or we get into an emotion-based hypersensitive discussion.

In which direction would you like this to go?

 

[TRONZ]

Oh I forgot, I am a happy LEAF owner with 2800 miles and love the car (Fanboy) so my opinion does not count compared to BlueSL who may have not even seen a LEAF in person yet. My bad!

Yet another personal attack.

Blue - it seems we can go in one of two directions here - either have a fact-based non-attribution-type chat where we turn our personal sensitivities down a tad, or we get into an emotion-based hypersensitive discussion.

In which direction would you like this to go?

For the answer, I would direct everyone up to the derogatory Title BlueSL chose for his thread. He is fair game. The title is a clear attempt to invalidate the opinions of happy LEAF owners by calling them all "Fanboys". Then when we answer his accusations with the facts of our joy about our cars he wines about being attacked??? So, in light of BlueSL's title, who attacked who.

 

[Pipcecil]

For those that have a problems with the range being short, let me but this in perspective from a transportation planning traffic modeler to predict traffic and roadway usage for the future.

When calcuating model efforts (which we validate with real data collected) we account for:

home base work trips
non home base work trips
home base non work trips
and non home non work trips

Obviously these scenarios, from a real life perspective:

I go to work and come home
I left a meeting and went to work
I drove from home to the grocery store
I went from one store to another

Each of these "scenarios" have attactions. A traffic model predicts areas of more jobs attacts more people from higher residential livings. Using the models (remember based on REAL LIFE data), all scenarios with the exception of home base work trips account for only 25% of all trips made. Think about it, what trip do you make most often? I go to work 5 times a day, the grocery store only once a week, maybe to a store to pick up a movie or something once a week or every other week, I visit my inlaws (close by) once every two weeks, etc.

As you can see the majority of all your trips are to and from work. Buying a car for the worst case scenario (i.e. for the entire life of the car I may drive to DC!! OMG I need a car with a 40 gallon gas tank is uneconomical and unfeasible). So for each person, its to decide how often they make these extratrips that would be out of range. Its better (and more economical, usually) to either have a back up car of to rent a car..both of wich can seem odd/strange because its different. I once thought as many do, "but I cant drive to X place anymore!" yet, when realizing I make trip X once every 4 months do I really need the extra capacity?

Looking at this subjectively instead of what we are used to can really bring a different light to the subject. If you find you constataly make trips that are longer than 100 miles roundtrip, than the leaf is not for you, which is totally cool!

On the deals with the leaf being cost effective. Again, thats really depends on many issues. I pay 9 cents a kWh for electicity (mostly natural gas based energy), apply that rate and I beat any gas car (even a prius) with gas around $3.90. For some it may not make any sense. Thats cool, the car isn't for you, get what you want!

As for the constant quirks and problems, I think this is a non-issue. Firstly, all eyes are on the leaf, so every small mishap is reported ad-nausium. Secondly, the whole process has been more revealing than probably most cars to date. How many people have followed the recalls and problems with a Hyundai Elantra? If you look, ALL cars when the make a new model (especially a brand new one, not just a major overhaul) there are LOADS of issues. How many people were early adpoters of the original iPhone? Its perfect right because all consumer goods are perfect and free of problems the second they hit the shelves and (sorry I am picking on Apple here, but its an easy explanation) what about the attenna problems and the iPhone 4 for the "early adpoters" of the new model?

In sumation, every "early adopter" knows there will be problems, but we accept it to get the coolest, newest, and/or neatest item. The cost and range is not for everyone. But its folly to look at it from a high view and say it won't work without looking at your numbers and evaluating your driving habits (without bias!). If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't, thats cool, buy what want. For me, the nissan leaf works. I don't need the extra range (work is 55 round trip), electricity is cheap so its cost effective (plan on keeping it for ~10 years unless it gets totaled), and I don't mind being an early adpoter. I am what I classify as an ecogadget freak. I love eco gadgets and this is exactly something that makes me excited.

 

[BlueSL]

Tronz, you raved about the fact that the Leaf was a hatchback. That makes you a fanboy. Run a search of the word on these boards. No one (including me) uses it in a derogatory sense. Check for yourself.

If you doubt my lack of malice, consider this earlier post (regarding Nissan's stony silence about the Forgotten Orders) where I used the term:

In another thread, I suggested a one-hour MODERATED chat with a Nissan to clear the air. Pretty simple, really. You only answer the questions that pertain to the greatest number of people and, in one hour, there is no more FUD. That's all that was/is required to put this behind us and turn us back into fanboys.

 

[Adrian]

I absolutely enjoy my Leaf. It works for me; and my commute is 75-80 miles per day round-trip. Having said that, I think we should be able to discuss various opinions without personal attacks. Enjoying my Leaf and being a fan of it is not mutually exclusive with having things that one would prefer were better. I for one would like the option to pay for a 150 miles range so I can have a real 100 mile range driving any way I feel like. I'd also like a (better) charging infrastructure, since right now it's mostly non-existent. I also have no problem realizing that I am in the very small minority when it comes to adoption of EVs. I also believe that improving range and charging infrastructure are needed for widespread adoption of EVs. In summary, I enjoy my Leaf but also believe much has to be done before widespread adoption by the general public.

 

[lonndoggie]

No one (including me) uses it (fanboy) in a derogatory sense.

Perhaps not, but about the only exposure I've had to the term "fanboy" before now has been on sites like Gizmodo and Engadget where the term is used to put the other camp down (e.g., android users talking about iPhone users, or vice-versa).

I guess you're saying it's not unlike certain ethnic slurs--it's OK for a member of the ethnic group to use it as a friendly reference, but not for outsiders.

Perhaps if you'd titled the thread "Home on the Range. We Leaf Fanboys Attack", we would've gotten the idea you felt you were one of...uh...them. Us. Those fanboys. You know what I mean.

 

[davewill]

No one (including me) uses it in a derogatory sense. Check for yourself.

It doesn't really matter how you meant it, it obviously rubbed a lot of people the wrong, wrong way. I suggest editing the title and using different terminology.