EVSE Upgrade

[mhigley]

I just got my cord back from EVSE Upgrade. Super fast service. I also got a pigtail ( from http://www.evseadapters.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) to use in some of the RV parks in my area. What a great improvement! Why doesn't Nissan just do this? It makes the vehicle more usable and opens up more places to charge. Wouldn't a commercial showing someone plugging in at an RV park next to a Lake be cool?

I have decided not to get a wall EVSE and just use the upgraded cord.

 

[downeykp]

That is exactly what a lot of us have done. It is the only charger I own and it has worked flawlessly for a year and a half. Phil makes great products.

 

[cwerdna]

Yeah, it would be nice.

Phil himself even asked Nissan to essentially do this and provide portable EVSEs that support up to 240 volts right off the bat, even though it'd mean the end of his EVSE upgrade business. He asked them while at the podium at the SF BayLeafs meeting last year where the Leaf's Chief Vehicle Engineer (Kadota-san), Mark Perry, a bunch of senior Nissan folks and engineers from Japan were present.

I know there have been threads here on MNL long ago about some potential US regulatory/code issuses (NEC) relating to mobile/portable 240 volt electrical devices. Someone else can probably point to them and whether those points are valid/are an issue.

 

[mhigley]

That's too bad. There are no charging stations in many of the small towns here in the Kansas City area so being able to plug in at the RV parks at my favorite fishing lakes is huge to me. Nissan should supply the upgraded cord with every car. Now I can plug in at my relatives houses using 110 as well as plug in at any RV park. I guess it just makes too much sense for a big company to jump on I guess they made the car for me so I can't complain too much.

What is the difference between plugging in an RV and plugging in a car? I would think the laws would be the same.

 

[smkettner]

What is the difference between plugging in an RV and plugging in a car? I would think the laws would be the same.

RV adapters are readily available over the counter at any RV shop to both plug in a 30a RV (120v) to 120/240 service and to plug a 50 amp RV 120/240v plug into the 30a or 20a 120v supply. The difference is RV equipment pretty much only runs on 120 volts, there is no dedicated 240v like EVs use. So with an RV there is no real crossing over of voltage as there is with the evse upgrade. The evse adapter will supply 120v to any 240v item with the correct plug. Good chance to cause damage unless the device is designed to run on both voltages.

 

[davewill]

...I know there have been threads here on MNL long ago about some potential US regulatory/code issuses (NEC) relating to mobile/portable 240 volt electrical devices. Someone else can probably point to them and whether those points are valid/are an issue.

Tesla is shipping one, so I imagine Nissan could, too. The reason probably has more to do with marketing agreements with Blink and Aerovironment. Also, it would undoubtedly cause customer support issues.

 

[smkettner]

I thought Tesla had a propriatary connector to join the adapter and the brick. This blocks other devices from using the adapter. No reason Nissan could not do same.

 

[davewill]

I thought Tesla had a proprietary connector to join the adapter and the brick. This blocks other devices from using the adapter. No reason Nissan could not do same.

I think the proprietary connector is so that the EVSE can limit amperage to match the adapter you attach.

 

[richard]

I know there have been threads here on MNL long ago about some potential US regulatory/code issuses (NEC) relating to mobile/portable 240 volt electrical devices. Someone else can probably point to them and whether those points are valid/are an issue.

NEC 625.13 specifies that cord-and-plug type EVSE must either be Level 1 or be part of a system that satisfies other requirements (an interlock, automatic de-energization of cable, and a bunch of indoor siting requirements)

Nissan chose to stick with Level 1 rather than worry about the other requirements.

Leviton was the first to come up with a "system" that satisfied the extra requirements, so they were able to put plugs on their EVSE. Other mfgs are now following suit.
http://toyota.leviton.com/evse-fact-sheet-240v" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan could revisit this issue now, or just award the contract for the next generation of cordsets to Leviton, which seems to be willing to stick their necks out a bit to push against the NEC.

 

[TEG]

Interesting document here:

http://www.mass.gov/eea/docs/doer/alternative-fuels/ev-manual-mass-32011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...EV suppliers will provide a Level 1 Cord Set (120 VAC, 15 or 20 amps) with the vehicle...

...The higher voltage of Level 2 allows a much faster battery charge. Because of the higher voltage, Level 2 has a higher level of safety requirements than Level 1 under the NEC, including the requirement that the connector and cord be hardwired to the control device and premises wiring...

 

[TEG]

Another related search term: "NFPA 70"...

http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/ProposedTIA1037_NFPA70.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...The language in NEC 625.13 can be interpreted incorrectly to prohibit cord and plug connection of EVSE rated at 250V. Jurisdictions that interpret the current NEC 625.13 to prohibit cord and plug connection for EVSE will place an undue hardship on the owners or potential owners of electric vehicles, electrical contractors, and electrical distributors.
625.13(A) The section has been restructured to ensure clear and enforceability language for cord and plug connected EVSE. Item (A) addresses 125V charging and item (B) addresses 250V charging. The present language permits a 125V, 20A rated EVSE...

Anyways, it looks like some EV makers are sticking to the "old rules" until the "dust settles"...

 

[smkettner]

I thought Tesla had a proprietary connector to join the adapter and the brick. This blocks other devices from using the adapter. No reason Nissan could not do same.

I think the proprietary connector is so that the EVSE can limit amperage to match the adapter you attach.

That is another benefit when the car can charge at much higher rates when available.
If you only charge at the lowest rate like LEAF the point is moot.
AFAIK all 240v evse are 16+ amps.

 

[TonyWilliams]

...I know there have been threads here on MNL long ago about some potential US regulatory/code issuses (NEC) relating to mobile/portable 240 volt electrical devices. Someone else can probably point to them and whether those points are valid/are an issue.

Tesla is shipping one, so I imagine Nissan could, too. The reason probably has more to do with marketing agreements with Blink and Aerovironment. Also, it would undoubtedly cause customer support issues.

One of Nissan's big customer support issues (from last Dec 2011) is folks plugging in to 240v with an unmodified EVSE. Poof... warranty claim (probably denied).

If they were all 240v, this problem would exist.

I have now had 3 separate EVSE's upgraded. Two Nissan / Panasonic, and now one Toyota / Panasonic (much less capable power wise than Nissan's).

 

[smkettner]

Actually it is also fairly common for 30a 120v RV to get plugged into 240 volts.

Either a handyman connects a new outlet wrong or somehow the plug is forced into a 240v dryer outlet.

 

[cwerdna]

One of Nissan's big customer support issues (from last Dec 2011) is folks plugging in to 240v with an unmodified EVSE. Poof... warranty claim (probably denied).

Yeah, I recall the Nissan quality guy saying that... people were doing that via adapters. I don't remember him saying it was one of their big support issues (my memory might be faulty), but it was brought up.

Phil (Ingineer) chimed in and said "we can fix those!"

 

[tps]

Leviton was the first to come up with a "system" that satisfied the extra requirements, so they were able to put plugs on their EVSE. Other mfgs are now following suit.
http://toyota.leviton.com/evse-fact-sheet-240v" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have been using one of those Leviton EVSE units (16A/240V) at home since February 2012. It seems to be a well constructed unit, built in a sturdy steel case. I've also got an upgraded Nissan/Panasonic unit, which I've used many times away from home on both 120V and 240V, also seems very reliable and robust.

 

[Ingineer]

The NEC permits 240v portable EVSE's as long as they have a de-energizing interlock, cable strain de-energization, and are used indoor only. The problem is using them outdoors. In most locations, finding a 240v outlet outside is vary rare, (save for RV parks) so the reality is they will almost always be connected to 240 indoors. This is also why I have every customer sign a waiver stating they will connect the EVSE in a dry and protected environment. If you choose to use an EV park outlet, you do so at your own risk. :shock:

Here's the 2011 NEC excerpt:

625.13 Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment. Electric vehicle supply equipment rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 or 20 amperes or part of a system identified and listed as suitable for the purpose and meeting the requirements of 625.18, 625.19, and 625.29 shall be permitted to be cord-and-plug-connected. All other electric vehicle supply equipment shall be permanently connected and fastened in place. This equipment shall have no exposed live parts.

Here's the other relevant sections:

625.18 Interlock. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric vehicle connector and its cable whenever the electrical connector is uncoupled from the electric vehicle. An interlock shall not be required for portable cord-and-plug-connected electric vehicle supply equipment intended for connection to receptacle outlets rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 and 20 amperes.

625.19 Automatic De-Energization of Cable. The electric vehicle supply equipment or the cable-connector combination of the equipment shall be provided with an automatic means to de-energize the cable conductors and electric vehicle connector upon exposure to strain that could result in either cable rupture or separation of the cable from the electric connector and exposure of live parts. Automatic means to de-energize the cable conductors and electric vehicle connector shall not be required for portable cord-and-plug-connected electric vehicle supply equipment intended for connection to receptacle outlets rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 and 20 amperes.

625.29 Indoor Sites. Indoor sites shall include, but not be limited to, integral, attached, and detached residential garages; enclosed and underground parking structures; repair and non-repair commercial garages; and agricultural buildings.

-Phil

 

[Ingineer]

RV adapters are readily available over the counter at any RV shop to both plug in a 30a RV (120v) to 120/240 service and to plug a 50 amp RV 120/240v plug into the 30a or 20a 120v supply. The difference is RV equipment pretty much only runs on 120 volts, there is no dedicated 240v like EVs use. So with an RV there is no real crossing over of voltage as there is with the evse upgrade. The evse adapter will supply 120v to any 240v item with the correct plug. Good chance to cause damage unless the device is designed to run on both voltages.

While RV's usually don't make use of 240v, they definitely do have 240v present when connected via a NEMA 14-50, so I'm not sure why you claim there is much difference.

One of the reasons why we use a NEMA L6-20 on the upgrade, and then provide an adapter to "go back" to 120v, is to ensure there is no way you can use the adapter to overvolt something. If you plugged a 240v appliance into our adapter and connected it to 120v, all that would happen would be it not running well or at all. It's the same as a brownout, so every UL listed piece of equipment should survive without any adverse effects.

However, If we had kept the 120v (5-15) end and made an adapter to go from a 240v outlet, this would be extremely dangerous.

I have a design for a powerful next-gen portable EVSE with loads of features that I came up with back in 2011. I had prototyped it only to find out that there was no business case for it (yet), so it sits on a shelf. It has interchangeable plugs with a detection mechanism so the EVSE will correctly limit current when used on smaller outlets. Unfortunately to add this feature to the upgrade, it would have been too expensive, because it would have required a lot of custom molds. As the EV market grows, there will be a point at which it makes sense to put this design into production. It blows away everything else! (but I can't give away all the secrets yet!)

-Phil

 

[mhigley]

Ok, now I get it Phil. The portable EVSE not supposed to be used outside. Do you think this will ever change? It just seems to make so much sense that we be able to plug in at RV parks.

 

[smkettner]

RV adapters are readily available over the counter at any RV shop to both plug in a 30a RV (120v) to 120/240 service and to plug a 50 amp RV 120/240v plug into the 30a or 20a 120v supply. The difference is RV equipment pretty much only runs on 120 volts, there is no dedicated 240v like EVs use. So with an RV there is no real crossing over of voltage as there is with the evse upgrade. The evse adapter will supply 120v to any 240v item with the correct plug. Good chance to cause damage unless the device is designed to run on both voltages.

While RV's usually don't make use of 240v, they definitely do have 240v present when connected via a NEMA 14-50, so I'm not sure why you claim there is much difference.

Nothing in the RV is dual voltage or universal voltage like the evse upgrade product. So an RV is not really feeding on 240 although yes it is available with a 50a connection. So the adapters will not feed 240v to anything. That is all.

Just as you said, the adapter gets to be an issue when a person can feed the wrong voltage to something else plugged in.
I am not sure UL would like 120v fed to a 240v connector. But that is out of my knowledge.