Oh, FFS! :roll:
EVSE Home Assessment Reports
- Thread starter Boomer23
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Oh, FFS! :roll:
LEAFer
Well-known member
Fast File System ? For-Further-Study ? Fédération Française de Ski ? Fat Friend Syndrome ? Oh never mind, I got it ! False Financial Statements!mwalsh said:
(Don't answer this.)
Boomer23
Well-known member
My electrician had just come from a customer with a Tesla in a local upscale hillside ocean view enclave.
garygid
Well-known member
The "electrician" that came today appeared to be from AV, not a local company.
1. He seemed to indicate that anything between a "trivial" install and a 30-foot run of conduit would all fall within the "standard" install, and probably be the "standard" price. Perhaps he was saying that the minimum "install" was going to be $2200, but it was not clear.
2. He said that there IS a strain relief (BREAK-away) where the e-fuel cord enters the EVSE (at its bottom). He described "spade lugs" that would presumably disconnect, and a "cup" that would usually need to be replaced (after a cord pull-out). The option of 15' or 25' cord, your choice, no extra charge, but not to be user-swapped.
3. He mentioned that there are different Tariffs available, like TOU, but to be careful to estimate and check carefully to avoid unexpectedly large charges.
4. I asked if the EVSE is set to 30 or 32 amps (with a 40-amp breaker), and he said 6.6kW, but that the leaf is only about 3.3kW. So, I suspect that he did not know the answer.
Note: 220v x 30 amps = 6.60kW, but 240 x 32 amps = 7200 + 480 = 7.68kW.
1. He seemed to indicate that anything between a "trivial" install and a 30-foot run of conduit would all fall within the "standard" install, and probably be the "standard" price. Perhaps he was saying that the minimum "install" was going to be $2200, but it was not clear.
2. He said that there IS a strain relief (BREAK-away) where the e-fuel cord enters the EVSE (at its bottom). He described "spade lugs" that would presumably disconnect, and a "cup" that would usually need to be replaced (after a cord pull-out). The option of 15' or 25' cord, your choice, no extra charge, but not to be user-swapped.
3. He mentioned that there are different Tariffs available, like TOU, but to be careful to estimate and check carefully to avoid unexpectedly large charges.
4. I asked if the EVSE is set to 30 or 32 amps (with a 40-amp breaker), and he said 6.6kW, but that the leaf is only about 3.3kW. So, I suspect that he did not know the answer.
Note: 220v x 30 amps = 6.60kW, but 240 x 32 amps = 7200 + 480 = 7.68kW.
Rat
Well-known member
A guy from Metropolitan electric of SF is coming to do mine within the next hour. I'm surprised they are using someone that far north (SF) instead of someone more local. Maybe this company has the franchise for the whole Bay Area. I'll report when it's over.
Edit: 10:40 am. Steve Passanisi of Metropolitan electric in SF just finished. He seemed very enthused about the Leaf and has registered to get one himself, but not in the first wave. He was pretty down on AeroVironment, saying they were not being fair to the contractors and didn't seem very knowledgeable about the contracting business. They are obviously rushing this through and not prepared to deal with the volume and all issues.
He says my house is probably the hardest of the first seven assessments he has done because the breaker panel is so far from the garage (back bedroom closet for the panel, garage near front door for the charger ~ 100 ft. or more.) He said the existing wiring to the garage appears to be all Romex, not conduit. My panel is 200A and has plenty of room, but the main service is only 125A. It was helpful that he could open up the sheetrock in the closet and said he might have to install another smaller panel there. The charger requires #8 wire. I didn't get much more of the technical stuff.
He said AV's training was two full days. He sent 4 people, including himself, to get certified as assessors and one the first day of signup for the assessments got 600 e-mails inquiring if he could do them. He now wants to get 15 more electricians certified, but wants AV to send the trainer to his company. He services all Northern California, mostly commercial, but plenty of residential, too. His customers are Wells Fargo, Macy's etc. He asked AV if all the people in the assessment class were licensed electrical contractors and they wouldn't answer that. Your assessor may not be an actual electrician. He is, and showed me his photo ID from the state licensing board. The assessors get no money from the $100 we paid for the assessment. They get paid only when the actual installs are done. All these assessments are overhead for him now. AV will charge him to rent their test equipment when installs start, too. AV requires him to wear an AV shirt when doing the assessments, but didn't have sufficient shirts to fill his order until yesterday (he has to pay for those, too). He was wearing one today. He has stopped taking assessments due to the volume of unpaid time it is taking, so he said I was lucky to get in early.
He does not have any charger units in yet. He says they can't be installed now anyway because they are not UL certified. He says no inspector will approve installation of these things until that certification is granted. He doesn't know anything about the tax credits or AMT but he is assuming all the state money will be gone by the time he gets his, so he isn't counting on the state ones. In the class they said PG&E will require TOU rates and charge 3 cents/kwh for off-peak but he wasn't sure of the hours for off-peak and didn't know how it would be metered. He recommended calling PG&E. I was the first customer who asked about that.
He strongly recommended the 15 ft. cord due to the extra weight and cost of the 25 footer, and we found a spot on the garage wall that would allow charging either in the garage or on the driveway using the shorter cord. He says he's going to start bringing a 15 ft. rope to the assessments, but didn't have one with him. We used my tape measure.
He says hard-wiring is NOT necessary by code, but AV is requiring it because they want people to buy more chargers. He says he has a summer house and when he gets his Leaf, he'll rewire his home charger to be a plug-in and take in with him to his other house when he goes there (assuming he can make it the 80 miles in the Leaf). He is hoping they start installing public charging stations and wants that business.
That's all I remember for now.
Edit: 10:40 am. Steve Passanisi of Metropolitan electric in SF just finished. He seemed very enthused about the Leaf and has registered to get one himself, but not in the first wave. He was pretty down on AeroVironment, saying they were not being fair to the contractors and didn't seem very knowledgeable about the contracting business. They are obviously rushing this through and not prepared to deal with the volume and all issues.
He says my house is probably the hardest of the first seven assessments he has done because the breaker panel is so far from the garage (back bedroom closet for the panel, garage near front door for the charger ~ 100 ft. or more.) He said the existing wiring to the garage appears to be all Romex, not conduit. My panel is 200A and has plenty of room, but the main service is only 125A. It was helpful that he could open up the sheetrock in the closet and said he might have to install another smaller panel there. The charger requires #8 wire. I didn't get much more of the technical stuff.
He said AV's training was two full days. He sent 4 people, including himself, to get certified as assessors and one the first day of signup for the assessments got 600 e-mails inquiring if he could do them. He now wants to get 15 more electricians certified, but wants AV to send the trainer to his company. He services all Northern California, mostly commercial, but plenty of residential, too. His customers are Wells Fargo, Macy's etc. He asked AV if all the people in the assessment class were licensed electrical contractors and they wouldn't answer that. Your assessor may not be an actual electrician. He is, and showed me his photo ID from the state licensing board. The assessors get no money from the $100 we paid for the assessment. They get paid only when the actual installs are done. All these assessments are overhead for him now. AV will charge him to rent their test equipment when installs start, too. AV requires him to wear an AV shirt when doing the assessments, but didn't have sufficient shirts to fill his order until yesterday (he has to pay for those, too). He was wearing one today. He has stopped taking assessments due to the volume of unpaid time it is taking, so he said I was lucky to get in early.
He does not have any charger units in yet. He says they can't be installed now anyway because they are not UL certified. He says no inspector will approve installation of these things until that certification is granted. He doesn't know anything about the tax credits or AMT but he is assuming all the state money will be gone by the time he gets his, so he isn't counting on the state ones. In the class they said PG&E will require TOU rates and charge 3 cents/kwh for off-peak but he wasn't sure of the hours for off-peak and didn't know how it would be metered. He recommended calling PG&E. I was the first customer who asked about that.
He strongly recommended the 15 ft. cord due to the extra weight and cost of the 25 footer, and we found a spot on the garage wall that would allow charging either in the garage or on the driveway using the shorter cord. He says he's going to start bringing a 15 ft. rope to the assessments, but didn't have one with him. We used my tape measure.
He says hard-wiring is NOT necessary by code, but AV is requiring it because they want people to buy more chargers. He says he has a summer house and when he gets his Leaf, he'll rewire his home charger to be a plug-in and take in with him to his other house when he goes there (assuming he can make it the 80 miles in the Leaf). He is hoping they start installing public charging stations and wants that business.
That's all I remember for now.
My guy was just here. Basic install for me. In fact, he told his coworker (who was apparently on board to learn the process) that ALL are considered "basic installs" provided the EVSE is located within 30' of the service panel.
My service was fine. I had the three breaker spaces I showed in the pictures I posted to another thread. He counted up how many dual pole breakers I had (the one for the AC and the other for the Oven), then counted the number of 20A breakers, and then the number of 15A ones. I asked point blank if my 125A service was OK, and he said it was. I sort of got the impression that if I had more "stuff", like maybe an electric range, hot-tub, high-power microwave, etc...., we could have been in trouble for the service size. But at the same time he indicated that there wouldn't be any problems upgrading the panel when it came to the cabling from Edison, which for houses the age of ours was "always sufficient for a 200A panel".
The only wrinkle for me seems to be a HOA authorization form that needs to be signed off by the HOA, even though 90% of my work is interior the way I wanted my install. I asked what we could do if the HOA refused permission. He said (in my case) the options were a) a different routing so no exterior work was necessary at all or b) signing a waiver to indemnify AV and then doing to battle with the HOA myself.
Other nuggets:
Nissan wants your 120v outlet for L1 charging to be GFI protected.
EVSE installations will typically take place 2 months before car delivery.
Quote typically follows within 24 hours of the assessment, but in my case won't happen until the HOA form comes back to them.
Edit: My guy recommended the 25' cord and indicated I could get a 15' cord instead at no cost, which is completely different from what Rat was just told. LOL!
My service was fine. I had the three breaker spaces I showed in the pictures I posted to another thread. He counted up how many dual pole breakers I had (the one for the AC and the other for the Oven), then counted the number of 20A breakers, and then the number of 15A ones. I asked point blank if my 125A service was OK, and he said it was. I sort of got the impression that if I had more "stuff", like maybe an electric range, hot-tub, high-power microwave, etc...., we could have been in trouble for the service size. But at the same time he indicated that there wouldn't be any problems upgrading the panel when it came to the cabling from Edison, which for houses the age of ours was "always sufficient for a 200A panel".
The only wrinkle for me seems to be a HOA authorization form that needs to be signed off by the HOA, even though 90% of my work is interior the way I wanted my install. I asked what we could do if the HOA refused permission. He said (in my case) the options were a) a different routing so no exterior work was necessary at all or b) signing a waiver to indemnify AV and then doing to battle with the HOA myself.
Other nuggets:
Nissan wants your 120v outlet for L1 charging to be GFI protected.
EVSE installations will typically take place 2 months before car delivery.
Quote typically follows within 24 hours of the assessment, but in my case won't happen until the HOA form comes back to them.
Edit: My guy recommended the 25' cord and indicated I could get a 15' cord instead at no cost, which is completely different from what Rat was just told. LOL!
EVDRIVER
Well-known member
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- Apr 24, 2010
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Thanks for that info, I have mine next week which I may postpone. One thing I find a bit discouraging is that if there is proper conduit right to the EVSE and it takes them less than an hour to put it in they will still charge the supposed "minimum" which sounds like a way to make extra money for work they don't have to do. In time the actual price of the EVSE will be revealed and if the install for some is just hooking the box to the conduit and doing the permit for $2200 I may just pass and do my own. It also does not come as a surprise that AV is squeezing the install contractor as I have been in this type of business and most not directly in the trade are sometimes clueless as to what is required for these type of installations and the time involved in some cases. I feel for the installers but not AV. If a conduit run is not required there is a significant time and materials savings.
LEAFer
Well-known member
Thanks to the both of you for this update, especially Rat. Wow! A bunch of interesting info from your "assessor"/electrician !
garygid
Well-known member
My "assessment" guy (apparently he came from AV since the local company already had 4 other appointments for the day):
1. carries a 25' rope (with a 15' mark on it) to better let the customer "see" the possible e-cord distances. But, the 15'/25' no-cost option choice was ours to make.
2. said that a 120v socket should be nearby so that their "standard" trouble-shooting procedure will work:
A. press Stop on the EVSE to "reset" it.
B. Switch off and on the "EV-Charging" circuit breaker to reset the breaker and the EVSE
C. Use your 120v EVSE from the "convienent" socket to see if the car is responding properly.
D. Etc.
3. said they prefer the 120v socket to be GFI-protected, even though the 120v EVSE should have a built-in GFI.
4. charging in the driveway with the e-hose going under the closed garage door would tend to defeat the "rip-away" strain relief on the bottom cord-entry of the AV EVSE.
5. seemed to imply that the car-end plug was NOT a strain relief.
6. said that this "almost-trivial" (2 feet, all inside) install would be considered a "standard" (up to 30' conduit) install. Perhaps he was implying that we should expect the $2200 price?
7. the rip-away cord connection, if actually ripped away, would need to be "repaired" by a service visit.
8. three years of warranty coverage of the EVSE was included.
1. carries a 25' rope (with a 15' mark on it) to better let the customer "see" the possible e-cord distances. But, the 15'/25' no-cost option choice was ours to make.
2. said that a 120v socket should be nearby so that their "standard" trouble-shooting procedure will work:
A. press Stop on the EVSE to "reset" it.
B. Switch off and on the "EV-Charging" circuit breaker to reset the breaker and the EVSE
C. Use your 120v EVSE from the "convienent" socket to see if the car is responding properly.
D. Etc.
3. said they prefer the 120v socket to be GFI-protected, even though the 120v EVSE should have a built-in GFI.
4. charging in the driveway with the e-hose going under the closed garage door would tend to defeat the "rip-away" strain relief on the bottom cord-entry of the AV EVSE.
5. seemed to imply that the car-end plug was NOT a strain relief.
6. said that this "almost-trivial" (2 feet, all inside) install would be considered a "standard" (up to 30' conduit) install. Perhaps he was implying that we should expect the $2200 price?
7. the rip-away cord connection, if actually ripped away, would need to be "repaired" by a service visit.
8. three years of warranty coverage of the EVSE was included.
Bicster
Well-known member
This thread is depressing so far.
I hope some quotes come back soon.
I hope some quotes come back soon.
Rat
Well-known member
Some updates/clarifications on mine:
1. I'm now not sure my guy mentioned any extra cost on the 25' cord. He emphasized the extra length and weight, but maybe I said something about cost and he nodded, but might not have been sure on that.
2. Steve said the 120V trickle charge socket needs to be GFI protected, too, but my whole garage plug circuit runs through a single GFI socket and he said I didn't need an additional one. He said it would reduce cost not to have to install another one. He said most of the other customers haven't wanted the trickle charge capability.
3. My garage door can open as much or as little as I want and still lock in position so that no one else can open it. I can leave a 1" or 2" gap at the bottom for the cord, and not put any pressure on it, yet still be secure overnight (except for the mice, maybe). He thought it was a good idea to leave that option.
1. I'm now not sure my guy mentioned any extra cost on the 25' cord. He emphasized the extra length and weight, but maybe I said something about cost and he nodded, but might not have been sure on that.
2. Steve said the 120V trickle charge socket needs to be GFI protected, too, but my whole garage plug circuit runs through a single GFI socket and he said I didn't need an additional one. He said it would reduce cost not to have to install another one. He said most of the other customers haven't wanted the trickle charge capability.
3. My garage door can open as much or as little as I want and still lock in position so that no one else can open it. I can leave a 1" or 2" gap at the bottom for the cord, and not put any pressure on it, yet still be secure overnight (except for the mice, maybe). He thought it was a good idea to leave that option.
EVDRIVER
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I think that once the assessment is complete and people get the actual quote they should be able to negotiate a lower price if they have a simple install where conduit is run, I can't see them walking away from the job and there is a savings in conduit and labor that they just intend to pocket if they do the work. You get what you negotiate
Bicster
Well-known member
What incentive do they have to negotiate? You want a car, you need their service.
EVDRIVER
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Bicster said:
There is a profit for the EVSE and it is NOT required to buy the car. If there is a saving in the installation they can pas that on to you. Basic business, if they don't pay $150 for conduit and supplies and save a few hours labor they can reduce the bid and still make a profit. The incentive is that they already invested to time to do the assessment so they want to complete the work if they can make money. You may NEED their service but everyone does not.
Bicster
Well-known member
Although the EVSE may not be required to buy a Leaf, we don't know whether it will affect priority reservation status. My feeling is that it will.
DeaneG
Well-known member
I just got an email from Nissan (EVSE eval yesterday morning). The email said I should receive a quote within 3 days. My eval was done by Dollens Electric (the boss did mine). I'm in silicon valley too so I guess AV is using more than one sub per geographic area.
I'm a little troubled by this HOA approval form...it leaves it wide open for a HOA to say "no", and doesn't do us any favors by mentioning scary stuff like "trenching" and "holes in walls", even when one has a "simple" installation that doesn't require any of that stuff, or even in circumstances where NO external modifications to the house or common areas need to take place at all!
And while I see the option of indemnifying AV, and taking on responsibility for dealing with any HOA problems myself, it still does not allow for me NOT submitting the approval form to the HOA. Nor does it read like installation can, in fact, continue IF the HOA were to say "no"!
I will scan it for you guys at the office on Monday, before I send it off the HOA's management company, but this very much looks like a case of a) if you are in a HOA this form has to be submitted, no two ways about it and b) your installation must be approved to get an EVSE.
I guess the only other possibility would be to sign the waiver from Nissan, turn down an EVSE for now, and wait for them to turn up "over the counter" from alternative vendors. Something I definitely did not want to do - I WANT to support AV's investment in this (even if it doesn't seem like they deserve it sometimes) and I WANT to have an EVSE.
And while I see the option of indemnifying AV, and taking on responsibility for dealing with any HOA problems myself, it still does not allow for me NOT submitting the approval form to the HOA. Nor does it read like installation can, in fact, continue IF the HOA were to say "no"!
I will scan it for you guys at the office on Monday, before I send it off the HOA's management company, but this very much looks like a case of a) if you are in a HOA this form has to be submitted, no two ways about it and b) your installation must be approved to get an EVSE.
I guess the only other possibility would be to sign the waiver from Nissan, turn down an EVSE for now, and wait for them to turn up "over the counter" from alternative vendors. Something I definitely did not want to do - I WANT to support AV's investment in this (even if it doesn't seem like they deserve it sometimes) and I WANT to have an EVSE.
Bicster
Well-known member
The HOA won't likely tell you that you can't have the EVSE installed, but they might make it a pain in the butt (and more expensive) by requiring it be installed in a certain way.
I'm glad I don't have an HOA here in my 100+ year old neighborhood.
I'm glad I don't have an HOA here in my 100+ year old neighborhood.
garygid
Well-known member
Check your HOA Rules & Regulations.
They might not have jurisdiction over interior changes or "repairs" or the temporary trenches needed for repair or upkeep of various utilities.
They might not have jurisdiction over interior changes or "repairs" or the temporary trenches needed for repair or upkeep of various utilities.
