EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

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Regarding whether the Nissan/FTC or EPA range number is more accurate, that's not the right way to think about it. No single number describes the range of an EV, any more than a single MPG number completely describes a gas vehicle.

Both the 100 mile and the 73 mile figures, and everything in between, plus some lower and higher, are accurate for some driving scenario.

For the Tesla Roadster, the 244 mile range corresponds to an easily described driving scenario: driving a steady 55 mph on level freeway in moderate temperatures. Under similar circumstances, our RAV4-EV has a range of just over 100 miles.

If the EPA tests are harsher than what Tesla went through in 2008, the same car will get a lower range number, but it's still the same car. The lower range number will correspond to a higher constant speed on level freeway. What is that new speed? To me, that's the real question, and one that won't be answered until we have a bunch of owners doing the experiment.
 
garygid said:
Basically, avoid, when possible, "unnecessary" re-charge (top-off) cycles.

Because of this, folks have assumed that it MIGHT be better to only charge to the 80% level, unless one needs the "full-tank" range.
How about "top off" charging to the 80% level? I can see the possiblility of starting out with 80% charge, driving 30 miles on the freeway, then charging at the destination to pick up a few miles so I don't run it too low on the return trip. Of course, this is all hypothetical right now, as the public recharging infrastructure is nil here in Philadelphia at this point... My guess is that my daily routine will be to charge to 80% overnight, go to the office (~40 mile round trip) followed by another overnight charge to 80%.

I wonder if I can change from 80% to 100% from my laptop, on those rare occasions when I might need a full charge?
 
tomsax said:
Regarding whether the Nissan/FTC or EPA range number is more accurate, that's not the right way to think about it. No single number describes the range of an EV, any more than a single MPG number completely describes a gas vehicle.

Both the 100 mile and the 73 mile figures, and everything in between, plus some lower and higher, are accurate for some driving scenario.

For the Tesla Roadster, the 244 mile range corresponds to an easily described driving scenario: driving a steady 55 mph on level freeway in moderate temperatures. Under similar circumstances, our RAV4-EV has a range of just over 100 miles.

If the EPA tests are harsher than what Tesla went through in 2008, the same car will get a lower range number, but it's still the same car. The lower range number will correspond to a higher constant speed on level freeway. What is that new speed? To me, that's the real question, and one that won't be answered until we have a bunch of owners doing the experiment.

tomsax, If you drive your Tesla at 65-70 mph on the freeway for half of the battery capacity, and the other half you drive in city traffic, with the AC on, what range do you get? The EPA range seems to be 221-244 on the Tesla Roadster and I'm wondering how far off the EPA estimate is when you drive given these conditions. You previously mentioned that the 244 EPA range could be achieved by driving 55 mph on level ground and I'm wondering if we can also apply that to the Leaf, meaning the Leaf could achieve 73 miles of range at a constant 55 mph. But I'm also interesting in knowing how the mixed driving conditions of freeway (at normal freeway speeds) and city driving.
 
For the curious and masochistic among you, I have located the EPA's technical document that details exactly what the 5-cycle test is, how it works and why it's like that.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/mpg/420r06017.pdf

You may skip to chapter III (document page 33 or PDF page 41) to get right to the meat of the matter, skipping the discussion on previous testing methods.

IMHO the test is thorough but pessimistic (not that this is a bad thing) but at the same time overly broad. I guess that's the price you pay for trying to generate just two numbers that cover an effectively infinite range of driving conditions...
=Smidge=
 
Frank said:
tomsax, If you drive your Tesla at 65-70 mph on the freeway for half of the battery capacity, and the other half you drive in city traffic, with the AC on, what range do you get? The EPA range seems to be 221-244 on the Tesla Roadster and I'm wondering how far off the EPA estimate is when you drive given these conditions. You previously mentioned that the 244 EPA range could be achieved by driving 55 mph on level ground but I'm wondering about the mixed driving conditions of freeway (at normal freeway speeds) and city driving.

That's a tough question to answer since city driving can vary so dramatically. I log stats every time I drive the Roadster (Cathy does the same for the RAV4-EV). Looking back through the logs, I can tell you that on most drives, I get at least 90% of the ideal range. Occasionally, I dip down into the 80's, for example if I'm feeling decadent and running both the cabin heat and the heated seats.

You might also be interested in the data I posted on the Preliminary Range Results thread on Apr 21 2010 on this page: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=562&start=140
 
Smidge204 said:
For the curious and masochistic among you, I have located the EPA's technical document that details exactly what the 5-cycle test is, how it works and why it's like that.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/mpg/420r06017.pdf

You may skip to chapter III (document page 33 or PDF page 41) to get right to the meat of the matter, skipping the discussion on previous testing methods.

IMHO the test is thorough but pessimistic (not that this is a bad thing) but at the same time overly broad. I guess that's the price you pay for trying to generate just two numbers that cover an effectively infinite range of driving conditions...
=Smidge=

Thanks for the EPA link. I skipped to page 41 as you suggested, and right away noticed some adjustments that don't really apply to EVs, and other adjustments that are not that likely for responsible EV drivers. This adjustments result in decrements to the EPA's city and highway range estimates, so it seems to me that the EPA estimate may be too conservative (pessimistic as you said). I'm wondering if they modified these tests in any way for testing EVs?

For example, this is a quote from the document:

The current fuel economy label values utilize measured fuel economy over city (FTP) and highway (HFET) driving cycles and adjust these values downward by 10 and 22%, respectively, to account for a variety of factors not addressed in EPA’s vehicle test procedures.The purpose of the new formulae for city and highway fuel economies is to better account for three of these factors: 1) on-road driving patterns (i.e., vehicle speeds and accelerations), 2) air conditioning, and 3) colder temperatures. Vehicles are often driven more aggressively and at higher speeds than is represented in the FTP and HFET tests, which have maximum speeds of 55-60 mph and maximum acceleration rates of 3.2-3.3 mph per second. The incorporation of measured fuel economy over the US06 test cycle into the fuel economy label values makes the label values more realistic, as this cycle includes speeds up to 80 mph and acceleration rates of 8.4 mph per second.

The adjustment for #2 makes sense and seems applicable because I think in general, most people like to use AC while driving. Adjustment #1 seems OK in theory, but not to the extent that the EPA describes with speeds up to 80 mph and acceleration of 8.4 mph per second. And adjustment #3, does it make sense for an EV? This is what they say about colder temperatures:

Vehicles are also often driven at temperatures below 75F, at which the FTP and HFET tests are performed. The incorporation of measured fuel economy over the cold temperature FTP test into the fuel economy label values reflects the additional fuel needed to start up a cold engine at colder temperatures.
 
For most people using the LEAF primarily as a commute car, nearly half of their miles are likely to be before 9 AM and nearly half after 5 PM. Now there are some parts of the country where for some parts of the year an air conditioner is badly wanted after 5 PM, but on the whole I would think that might be 30% of the year for 15% of the country for 45% of the miles driven. i.e. 2% of the total miles driven by all LEAFs used as commuter cars. There are very few parts of the country where an air conditioner is ever needed before 9 AM, except as a dehumidifier when defogging. I don't know how to quantify the amount of that usage, nor do I know the cost of running an air conditioner when you really aren't trying to cool the air. On the whole, though, I can't imagine it could add up to too much. Put it all together and I think it would be safe to say that the air conditioning penalty, averaged throughout the country, would apply less than 10% of the time.

From my perspective, the heating penalty seems likely to be much more significant. I live in a relatively warm climate (San Jose CA area - look it up) yet I'm sure I run the heater in my car far more than I do the air conditioner. That is despite the fact that I am retired and rarely drive anywhere in the morning.

I guess I'm saying I disagree with Frank. Warming up the engine doesn't apply to an EV, but cold weather will have a major impact on the mileage you will get.
 
planet4ever said:
For most people using the LEAF primarily as a commute car, nearly half of their miles are likely to be before 9 AM and nearly half after 5 PM. Now there are some parts of the country where for some parts of the year an air conditioner is badly wanted after 5 PM, but on the whole I would think that might be 30% of the year for 15% of the country for 45% of the miles driven. i.e. 2% of the total miles driven by all LEAFs used as commuter cars. There are very few parts of the country where an air conditioner is ever needed before 9 AM, except as a dehumidifier when defogging. I don't know how to quantify the amount of that usage, nor do I know the cost of running an air conditioner when you really aren't trying to cool the air. On the whole, though, I can't imagine it could add up to too much. Put it all together and I think it would be safe to say that the air conditioning penalty, averaged throughout the country, would apply less than 10% of the time.

From my perspective, the heating penalty seems likely to be much more significant. I live in a relatively warm climate (San Jose CA area - look it up) yet I'm sure I run the heater in my car far more than I do the air conditioner. That is despite the fact that I am retired and rarely drive anywhere in the morning.

I guess I'm saying I disagree with Frank. Warming up the engine doesn't apply to an EV, but cold weather will have a major impact on the mileage you will get.

I agree that cold weather will have an impact on range, but I think that the temp would need to be way below the 75F threshold that the EPA uses. But I may be misunderstanding how the EPA uses the 75F threshold in its testing.
 
Frank said:
I agree that cold weather will have an impact on range, but I think that the temp would need to be way below the 75F threshold that the EPA uses. But I may be misunderstanding how the EPA uses the 75F threshold in its testing.

as i understand it, they "adjust" their results to simulate the mileage penalty suffered in extremely cold weather which is basically the rub of this thread.

sure, regular gas cars need to warm up and what not, so we have the 5 minutes of idling while we scrape ice, etc. and the engine gets to its optimum operating temperature which lowers the gas mileage which WILL NOT HAPPEN with the Leaf, so the penalty needs to be adjusted...
 
Frank said:
tomsax, If you drive your Tesla at 65-70 mph on the freeway for half of the battery capacity, and the other half you drive in city traffic, with the AC on, what range do you get? The EPA range seems to be 221-244 on the Tesla Roadster and I'm wondering how far off the EPA estimate is when you drive given these conditions. You previously mentioned that the 244 EPA range could be achieved by driving 55 mph on level ground and I'm wondering if we can also apply that to the Leaf, meaning the Leaf could achieve 73 miles of range at a constant 55 mph. But I'm also interesting in knowing how the mixed driving conditions of freeway (at normal freeway speeds) and city driving.

Not to over think this as it's getting into the Engineering forum but I think in summary we can look at the LEAF in the following way:

Power is the energy cost per unit time, as in kWh per h or kW. Therefore, it is possible to talk about what power is required to drive the car at a given speed, v, under given conditions. If you know the car's speed at the time of the calculation, you can then extrapolate how far it can go because if it's using P power and has 24kWh batteries it can go for 24kWh/P hours and thus (24kWh/P) * v miles.

So to figure out the range of the LEAF, at least on paper, you simply need to know what that Power function is; this is what is done on the Tesla site.

In simple terms, Power depends, obviously, on speed, on temperature visa vi climate control, wind speed and direction and whether you're going uphill or downhill: P(V, Tc, T0, Tt, m, W), where Tc is the current cabin temperature, T0 is the starting temperature (e.g. the temperature outside the cabin) and Tt is the target temperature, m is the slope of the current stretch of highway and V and W are vectors with magnitudes of speed and wind speeds and directions.

Of course this is a very complicated function. But it can be broken down into the following components:

1) Rolling Resistance: generally a linear term, which means that as speed increases, it increases proportionally. The Rolling Resistance of the tires attenuates this factor.

2) Acceleration: generally a square term, which derives from the fact that the more Kinetic Energy you put into your vehicle (the more you increase the speed) the more energy you use; you can also recapture Deceleration to the extent allowed through regenerative breaking, but the rest is lost as heat. The mass of the vehicle is also a factor.

3) Climbing / Descending: This term depends on speed with which you apply or remove Potential Energy by pushing your car up or letting your car roll down a slope. It depends on speed and again on mass.

4) Air Resistance: this is potentially the most complicated to calculate. It is also the chief limiting factor of a car's speed because it increases as the cube of the velocity, meaning if it's, for example, 6.24 kW to maintain a speed of 55 mph, it's 12.86 kW to go 70 mph and only 1.01 kW to go 30 mph and a whopping 27.34 kW to go 90 mph, assuming no wind component and STP (Standard air Temperature and Pressure: 0 degrees Celsius and 100 kilo-pascals). In truth, this calculation, to be totally accurate, would involve calculating the current air density, which is based on the current air pressure, humidity and outside temperature (T0) as well as a tensor for the Coefficient of Drag at all angles of wind direction so that the Wind vector can be combined with the Cd Tensor and Velocity / Speed vector to get an appropriate magnitude of the Drag experienced by the car.

5) Climate Control: this is the only component that is part of base load, meaning it doesn't depend on velocity. Like the radio and headlights and CARWINGS, this is a fixed energy output that is working regardless of how fast the car is going; it is used even when the car is stopped. How temperature plays a part in range is rather complicated, but one could consider the volume of air needed to heat or cool (the cabin volume), the amount of heat lost through the windows or heat added through the windows (depending on whether (T0 - Tc) is negative (heater) or positive (a/c)) and whether the target temperature has been reached. The radiative heat energy lost / gained through the windows should be given as the difference of the quartics, i.e. between T0**4 - Tc**4 (a/c) or Tc**4 - T0**4 (heater), as well as the surface area of the windows of the cabin and the Radiation constant of the grey-body material, in this case Glass: 5.13E-8 W/m**2 *C**4. Now, I've no idea of the window area of the LEAF, so let's just assume it's 15 m**2. This means that if T0 is 95 F and Tc is 75 F, you're adding approximately 948 W of heat energy to your car through the windows (using the Blackbody equations of heat radiation adjusted for glass). Obviously, to maintain the 75 F cabin temperature, you're going to need at least that much energy since A/C is not 100% efficient, and that's with the windows rolled up and not including incident solar radiation.

Of course, those are just rough, ball-park calculations but should give a good idea of what to expect from the LEAF. Hopefully Gudy and the rest of you earlier adopters can give us some better, real-world examples of the LEAF performance.

In the mean time, I'm still speculating...
 
There are also many friction loads in the drive system. The leaf transfer case is very quiet and suggests a cut on the gears designed for noise reduction, this type of cut is quiet but also comes at a loss of efficiency.
 
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