Ecopia EP422 tires suck

[LeftieBiker]

If I drove snow all the time I'd go with snow tires also, but the big range hit would make my 60-70 mile — with 2500 feet of elevation change — grocery shopping trips very difficult.

My Pirellis don't take a big hit in range, because they are hard compound studdable snows. They aren't the best snow tires, but they are much more aggressively treaded than the Ecopias. I drop to 3.5 M/KWH or so with them in Winter, but when I run them in warm weather on dry pavement, they get 4.2 or so. Shame they howl like banshees...

 

[DaveEV]

I hear that Nokian makes great snow tires - and they have very low rolling resistance too. A lot of the Prius guys end up running them year round.

 

[Yogi62]

It's recommended that you rotate the tires more frequently then every 18,000 miles, but if you happen to leave it that long you might also find the fronts wear 5 times faster than the rears. 5/32s left on the front, and 9/32 on the rear. 1/32 every 3,000 miles. So they would be dead at 48,000 after using up 16/32s combined. I expect to rotate again at 36,000, 39,000 and replace at 42,000 with 3/32 left on front and back.

40 to 44 pounds. I tend to coast a lot in B mode and not use the brakes if I can help it, so the fronts do all the work and rears are like trailer tires. One hard corner getting on and off the turnpike but other than that it is a lot of straight ahead driving.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

After 2 years, 22k miles, mine have 4/32 left all around. Rotated every 7500, kept at about 40 psi. End of lease inspector had no problem with them.

How many 32nds are there when new?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

After 2 years, 22k miles, mine have 4/32 left all around. Rotated every 7500, kept at about 40 psi. End of lease inspector had no problem with them.

How many 32nds are there when new?

9 i believe

 

[Nubo]

It's recommended that you rotate the tires more frequently then every 18,000 miles, but if you happen to leave it that long you might also find the fronts wear 5 times faster than the rears. 5/32s left on the front, and 9/32 on the rear. 1/32 every 3,000 miles. So they would be dead at 48,000 after using up 16/32s combined. I expect to rotate again at 36,000, 39,000 and replace at 42,000 with 3/32 left on front and back. ...

One reason that more frequent rotation is recommended: Once the wear difference becomes significant, moving the "better" tires to the front creates a dangerous situation. Consider what happens in a low-traction situation (hydroplaning, for example).

If the rear tires have the deeper tread, then the fronts will lose traction first. In that case you'll lose steering control and the car will tend to "plow ahead" until traction is regained.

If the front tires have the deeper tread, then the rears will lose traction first. In that case the car tends to slide sideways, spin out or swap ends.

Neither is pleasant but it's easier to maintain control in the first case as you may regain traction by slowing down. In the second case loss of control can be complete and irrecoverable.

This is why most tire shops will refuse to rotate your tires if the rear tires have significantly deeper tread.

 

[JPWhite]

It's recommended that you rotate the tires more frequently then every 18,000 miles, but if you happen to leave it that long you might also find the fronts wear 5 times faster than the rears. 5/32s left on the front, and 9/32 on the rear. 1/32 every 3,000 miles. So they would be dead at 48,000 after using up 16/32s combined. I expect to rotate again at 36,000, 39,000 and replace at 42,000 with 3/32 left on front and back. ...

One reason that more frequent rotation is recommended: Once the wear difference becomes significant, moving the "better" tires to the front creates a dangerous situation. Consider what happens in a low-traction situation (hydroplaning, for example).

If the rear tires have the deeper tread, then the fronts will lose traction first. In that case you'll lose steering control and the car will tend to "plow ahead" until traction is regained.

If the front tires have the deeper tread, then the rears will lose traction first. In that case the car tends to slide sideways, spin out or swap ends.

Neither is pleasant but it's easier to maintain control in the first case as you may regain traction by slowing down. In the second case loss of control can be complete and irrecoverable.

This is why most tire shops will refuse to rotate your tires if the rear tires have significantly deeper tread.

Personally as the LEAF is front wheel drive vehicle I'd prefer to have traction and better tire at the front rather than the rear. Let's work through another scenario.

I'm in a low traction situation, have control and enter a curve, if my front end loses grip first I keep going straight as you pointed out which isn't a great outcome. The combination of low traction and the additional inertia of turning a curve creates a dangerous situation.

If I lose grip with my rear end going round a curve I do at least have a chance of correcting by steering into the slide and regaining control before the car leaves the pavement.

The LEAF is a front wheel drive vehicle and the inertia going round a curve is a more common/likely scenario than losing it while travelling in a straight direction. With front wheel drive and driving straight ahead, how exactly is the rear end going to do anything else but follow even if it does lose grip?.

The situation is different with a rear wheel drive vehicle, such as a Tesla Model S where the rear end has a tendency to overtake the front end in low traction situations.

My personal rule is have the best tires on the driven axle.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

both scenarios are accurate but one simply happens much less often than the other. emergency straight line stops? Most experience this several times if not dozens of times every year.

losing control on a curve? has only happened to me a half dozen times in my life and it was ALWAYS me, not the tires

 

[JPWhite]

losing control on a curve? has only happened to me a half dozen times in my life and it was ALWAYS me, not the tires

Same here, I'm particular about my tires and change them before most other drivers would. Certainly before they get down to the wear indicators.

This reminds me of a guy who worked for me. On the way to lunch I pointed to my tires and said I had been calling round to get quotes since they were looking in need of replacement. He asked me why I was even considering replacing them because "they still have tread on them". Curious, I asked him when he would consider replacing a tire. "When the fabric starts showing through", was his reply.

This is the same guy who asked me why I stopped at a light that had just changed. Because it turned red I said. "Heck, you have 3 seconds after it turns red to clear the intersection" was his reply.

Only by the grace of God is this guy and his family still alive.

 

[pchilds]

Same here, I'm particular about my tires and change them before most other drivers would. Certainly before they get down to the wear indicators.

This reminds me of a guy who worked for me. On the way to lunch I pointed to my tires and said I had been calling round to get quotes since they were looking in need of replacement. He asked me why I was even considering replacing them because "they still have tread on them". Curious, I asked him when he would consider replacing a tire. "When the fabric starts showing through", was his reply.

This reminds me of the time, I left my track tires on for the trip to Death Valley. I get there and I notice the rears have the steel belts showing, I never lived that one down. BTW, I didn't need any tread, Death Valley gets less rain than San Diego, where I had the track tires on all summer. I you don't live in SoCal you have no clue how little rain we get. If it rains I'll take the car with rain tires, it's not like we will get a surprise afternoon storm.

 

[Nubo]

Personally as the LEAF is front wheel drive vehicle I'd prefer to have traction and better tire at the front rather than the rear. Let's work through another scenario.

I'm in a low traction situation, have control and enter a curve, if my front end loses grip first I keep going straight as you pointed out which isn't a great outcome. The combination of low traction and the additional inertia of turning a curve creates a dangerous situation.

If I lose grip with my rear end going round a curve I do at least have a chance of correcting by steering into the slide and regaining control before the car leaves the pavement.

That may seem intuitive but it doesn't work that way in practice. Rear end breaking loose is more difficult because it involves negative dynamic stability. I.e., the divergence tends to cause more divergence in a feedback loop.

Tire Rack spent some time on a test track checking this out:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Members of Tire Rack team had the chance to experience this phenomenon at Michelin's Laurens Proving Grounds. Participants were allowed to drive around a large radius, wet curve in vehicles fitted with tires of different tread depths -- one vehicle with new tires on the rear and half-worn tires on the front and the other with the new tires in the front and half-worn tires on the rear.

It didn't take long for this hands-on experience to confirm that the "proving grounds" name for the facility was correct. The ability to sense and control predictable understeer with the new tires on the rear and the helplessness in trying to control the surprising oversteer with the new tires on the front was emphatically proven.

And even though our drivers had the advantage of knowing we were going to be challenged to maintain car control, spinouts became common during our laps in the car with the new tires on the front and the worn tires on the rear. Michelin advises us that almost every driver spins out at least once when participating in this demonstration!

From Michelin:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa9hzcjdi5Q[/youtube]

 

[Yogi62]

After 2 years, 22k miles, mine have 4/32 left all around. Rotated every 7500, kept at about 40 psi. End of lease inspector had no problem with them.

How many 32nds are there when new?

9 i believe

10/32

When you get used to rotating tires when you change the oil...well I guess I need to work on new habits.

(Most of the tires I buy start with 2/32 and last about 100 miles.)

 

[Deleted member 5796]

I hear that Nokian makes great snow tires - and they have very low rolling resistance too. A lot of the Prius guys end up running them year round.

I recently put a set of Nokian WR-G3 tires on my LEAF after using WR-G2s and WR-G3s on my other cars (Prius). These particular tires are marketed as all season tires but are actually marked as snow tires. These are LRR tires and haven't caused a mileage hit on either the Prius or LEAF. I run them year round and their wet and dry handling is great. They perform well in the snow on the Prius, I'll find out soon how they do in the snow with the LEAF. They are a great improvement over the ecopias.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

After 2 years, 22k miles, mine have 4/32 left all around. Rotated every 7500, kept at about 40 psi. End of lease inspector had no problem with them.

How many 32nds are there when new?

9 i believe

10/32

When you get used to rotating tires when you change the oil...well I guess I need to work on new habits.

(Most of the tires I buy start with 2/32 and last about 100 miles.)

oops, sorry thought you were asking millimeters

 

[bowthom]

Hello,
So I'm confused. In the first car they drive until they begin to loose traction but control it through. In the second test they drive to hydroplane then stand on the brakes until the car is in an uncontrollable skid then try to recover. Two entirely different scenarios done to press home their point.

 

[JPWhite]

Hello,
So I'm confused. In the first car they drive until they begin to loose traction but control it through. In the second test they drive to hydroplane then stand on the brakes until the car is in an uncontrollable skid then try to recover. Two entirely different scenarios done to press home their point.

Agreed, the two tests were independent enough to prove nothing.

In the first test they indicated how it was important to let off the gas when you start to lose it. I totally agree with that driving strategy.
In the second test once it started to slide they didn't let off the gas, they hit the brakes. I totally disagree with that driving strategy.

They didn't test the tires or the config of the tires, they tested two different driving strategies.

 

[Nubo]

Hello,
So I'm confused. In the first car they drive until they begin to loose traction but control it through. In the second test they drive to hydroplane then stand on the brakes until the car is in an uncontrollable skid then try to recover. Two entirely different scenarios done to press home their point.

Yeah, it's just a short video. Read the entire Tire Rack article and there is plenty of other info if you care to research. This recommendation is widely followed by tire shops. Not because it sells more tires but because they don't want to be held liable for the resulting crashes.

 

[JPWhite]

Hello,
So I'm confused. In the first car they drive until they begin to loose traction but control it through. In the second test they drive to hydroplane then stand on the brakes until the car is in an uncontrollable skid then try to recover. Two entirely different scenarios done to press home their point.

Yeah, it's just a short video. Read the entire Tire Rack article and there is plenty of other info if you care to research. This recommendation is widely followed by tire shops. Not because it sells more tires but because they don't want to be held liable for the resulting crashes.

I think this video better illustrates your point.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__0DL8dE3Eo[/youtube]

The lighter backend is more likely to slide than the heavier front end when less traction available. I wonder if the same holds true for the LEAF given the better distribution of weight

They said the two cars were identical, why could they not just rotate the tires on the same vehicle to prove the point?

 

[LeftieBiker]

These particular tires are marketed as all season tires but are actually marked as snow tires.

I've never seen a set of all-season tires that weren't labeled "Mud & Snow". It's a little confusing.

 

[pchilds]

I checked the tread depth on my OEM Ecopia's, with 17k miles, they are all four at 8/32s, and even across width.
The Michelin MXV4's, with 7k miles, are also at 8/32s and even across width. Looks like the Michelin's aren't going to last as long as the Ecopia's.