diesel ranks almost as clean as hybrids

[LeftieBiker]

I know of no reason why current diesels should have shorter longevity. The prime innovation vs. 80s diesels is the high pressure injector pump which allows the computer to control ignition timing. Maybe the pump might fail some day, but the engine itself doesn't seem inherently less reliable.

Diesel engines have to be much more strongly built than gas engines to withstand the high combustion pressures and the higher bearing pressures that result. When building a truck engine you can make the parts really thick and heavy, but with a passenger car engine - especially a small one - you have to use very high quality, high tech materials. There is always cost pressure to make them cheaper, and weight demands to make them lighter, and both of these changes tend to make them shorter-lived. GM found that out the hard way when they tried to use gas engine blocks and other components in their infamous '80's diesels.

 

[cwerdna]

I find it strange that I only saw V6 diesels in the links above ??? No 4 cylinder ? Or are they only for poor Europeans ?

There are. See http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults_by_tech.php?tech=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and select 2013 and 2012 model years, for example.

In some European countries, registration or road tax (?) is based upon engine displacement. In Singapore, they do the displacement based tax, which I'm pretty sure was copied from some European country. Also, I believe there are regulations in some countries based upon grams of CO2/km, which encourages more efficient cars (which tend to have smaller displacements and fewer cylinders).

Since you're over there, perhaps you can comment on that.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

While diesels are much better than of old, they still,are much noisier compared to petrol. They are a lot more refined.

The torque is nice however diesels have a much narrower power band.

Our other car is a 200 honda crv 2.0 petrol 150 hp non vtec and it's got decent torque low down and plenty of power after 5k revs too.

I prefer the power band of the honda because it's got power right through the rev range.

If I need to over take is just drop a gear or 2 and floor it and it sounds a whole lot better than any diesel, that makes it all the more worth while.

If I want diesel economy then I'll convert it to LPG .

It's thirsty but as it's a run about with the occasional long run I don't need a diesel, diesels are completely unsuitable for low mileage driving especially short trips where they never warm up. You can be plagued with problems on newer diesels with blocked dpf and this is costly to fix because they will know you're not driving it properly.

If the car gets a good blast on the open road it should be ok but you're asking for trouble for town and city use all the time.

Dm33 it's not that diesels have shorter longevity, but more the quality of diesels these days isn't nearly as good as they used to be., gone are the days where your diesel will go for 300,000 miles with very little trouble.

Dpf and dpf failures are the most common failure,

The Prius is one of the most reliable cars on the road in the world today and when I get back into even a modern diesel they just feel really old school.

However, my brothers A6 diesel automatic is a lovely Place to be and I hate getting back into the Prius!

The A6 pulls like a train it's got 170 hp 4 cylinder TDI. The Prius is getting a lot better mpg almost 20 imp mpg better, but a lot of this could be down to his driving style. And it's a big car.

The Prius will still be a lot more reliable than most diesels today, they are just too complicated and quality suffers because they are getting expensive to make.

Mercedes says that in the not so distant future it will be too expensive to make diesels.

To answer a question above, here in Europe, Peugeot have a diesel hybrid. Can't think of the model but google should find it, it didn't get teriffic reviews afaik. And it's very expensive.

 

[cwerdna]

To answer a question above, here in Europe, Peugeot have a diesel hybrid. Can't think of the model but google should find it...

http://www.peugeot.co.uk/showroom/3008/hybrid4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I find it strange that I only saw V6 diesels in the links above ??? No 4 cylinder ? Or are they only for poor Europeans ?

There are. See http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults_by_tech.php?tech=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and select 2013 and 2012 model years, for example.

In some European countries, registration or road tax (?) is based upon engine displacement. In Singapore, they do the displacement based tax, which I'm pretty sure was copied from some European country. Also, I believe there are regulations in some countries based upon grams of CO2/km, which encourages more efficient cars (which tend to have smaller displacements and fewer cylinders).

Since you're over there, perhaps you can comment on that.

I can't comment for all E.U countries, but I think most are taxed now on a Co2 system.

Here in Ireland, up until 2008 we were taxed on the CC of the engine and now it's Co2.

You have to pay a yearly tax to drive a car here called "motor tax" and it varies from €120 a year -2,350 (yes you read that correct ) that's why you rarely see high performance cars here, V6 and the likes.

On the old CC system you pay €200 a year - €1809.

The new system created a lot of problems,

1st, it promotes much more harmful emitting diesel cars to drive in town and cities, and many cars up until 2012 or so do not even have a dpf.

Because people were paying higher tax on the old system they decided "oh I'll buy a new diesel car because I'll pay less motor tax per year, and even though I don't drive more than 8,000 miles a year, I'll save on road tax, and fuel "

They didn't stop to think on how many miles they would need to cover to make a pay back over the petrol. Even with the reduced tax, diesels still cost more and now with petrol technology improving, the gap is narrowing.

2nd problem, though some might not see this as a problem, but there was anger that an average man's diesel cost the same to tax, annually, as the rich man's Mercedes. Though on the initial purchase of the car the Mercedes owner would pay much more tax because of the higher purchase price of the car to begin with.

3rd problem is it literally wiped out the 2nd hand value of older cars over night as people flocked to buy new diesel cars that had much cheaper yearly tax.

4th problem, now there is much less incentive to buy electric cars as many normal ice cars don't cost much more for the yearly motor tax. I don't think a lot of people realise how much the 85 Euro's (114 USD) to fill a 13 us gallon tank actually adds up to over a year !

Though electrics get a 5,000 rebate, and are not subject to registration tax ( that's another tax applied after all other charges and taxes are applied ) there are still only 45 electrics registered out of 73,500 or so total car sales so far in 2013. Electric buyers also get free evse installation worth 1,000 Euro's or so.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

To answer a question above, here in Europe, Peugeot have a diesel hybrid. Can't think of the model but google should find it...

http://www.peugeot.co.uk/showroom/3008/hybrid4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes that's it !

I'm reading up on it, trying to find more information, but it seems to only have a 37 hp electric motor V 67 or so in the Prius.

I don't know the kwh comparison of the NiMh batteries. Or how far you can go in EV mode.

It does have 200 hp which is 70 more than the Prius. And it would most likely have a small advantage at higher speed cruising. Though what this translates to in real life is anyone's guess.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The 3008 hybrid is not sold here, I can't find it on the price list for Peugeot, all they offer is a pathetic typical Irish spec basic 1.6 diesel 115 hp engine.

The price ranging for 25,000 Euro,s for a very poorly spec to 30,000 Euro's for a half decent spec, so I'd imaging the hybrid to cost close to 40,000 Euro's, so it's no wonder it's not even offered, no one would buy it.

 

[KillaWhat]

I've been driving diesels for many (many) years.
The old ones were loud, but you could fix them with a big hammer.

25 years ago I had a diesel VW Rabbit that I suspect is still running somewhere to this day.
I then moved through various cars, and on to a pair of 2005 Passat B5.5 PD Turbo Diesels that I still have, but are going up for sale.
These were the last of the VW Diesels Built by Audi (They are 100% Audi A4's)

They are quiet and efficient.
My wife could get 40mpg out of hers, and I could squeak 50 mpg out of mine on a good day.

I Ordered Leafy on day one back in 2010 expecting PDQ delivery, only to have to wait till 3/2012.

Our "Primary" ICE car is now a 2012 AUDI A3 TDI Clean Diesel.
It even quieter than the Passat (A4's), and quicker (I have had it up to 130 Mph)

I'm 100% in favor of a TDI Hybrid.
If a Gas hybrid gets 50 to 60 MPG, and a TDI Hybrid gets 150 + MPG (and they DO!) and if hybrid is the route you choose, then I chose Diesel.

I LOVE my plug in car.
I drive it everywhere.
I'm not sure if adding a Tesla X in a couple years will completely solve my need for an ICE vehicle, but I suspect as a family we could do 90+% of our driving on just electrons and solar panels.

That's where my plan is headed at the moment.

P.S. Peugeot.......? I don't think so. What a POS they were

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Hi killawhat .

The old PD's were a great engine. My old B6 Aidi A4 had over 200,000 miles when I sold it and it was still driving well.

It was noisy and it did suffer from the all or nothing wallope of torque.

The older 1.9 engine went forever. The 2.0l wasn't so good and the new common rails suffer twin mass flywheel failure which is far too common, though not engine related as such, it is expensive to fix. Flywheel failure isn't unique to VAG diesels either.

Coming from an Audi to a Prius is a big step down, there are very few cars as nice to sit in as Audi. I still wouldn't go back to diesel though.

Fiat actually ranks higher than VAG today for reliability.

I don't know of any diesel hybrid that gets 150 mpg ?

 

[KillaWhat]

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, Audi makes a nice car, and I think they are getting even better.

I'm pretty committed to this EV philosophy.

Here is an article on VW's showing of their 256 MPG Diesel Hybrid at the LA auto show.
http://gas2.org/2013/11/09/la-2013-volkswagen-announces-256-mpg-diesel-hybrid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And their XL1
http://jalopnik.com/you-will-fit-in-volkswagens-261-mpg-diesel-hybrid-451566897" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And yes, I know we are a third world country (or worse) when it comes to available foreign cars.
It will be a cold day when we get a diesel hybrid here.

When I bought my B5.5 PD's here, it was 1 engine choice, 1 transmission choice, and 6 colors.
At the same time, in Europe, it was available in 5 engine choices, and 3 transmissions in 26 color schemes.

We can't even get a VW Twin Up, in gas, diesel or rubber band in this country.
Before I ordered Leafy, I was pursuing sneaking a Smart EL into the US from Canada, or ripping the engine out of a Prius, and putting in one of the all electric kits that were floating around.

Just a shame we have to fight so hard for things.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Maybe you can't get such cars over there because there might not be the market for it ?

Here a lot of engines are not offered for several car makes because there wouldn't be a market for it.

As for the twin up hybrid, 16 seconds 0-100 kph is economy gone too far IMO.

There isn't any information as to how it performs when the battery runs low.

I'd much rather a leaf and use the fast charge network, it really is a shame VW offer the exact kWh in the electric golf as the leaf. It feels as if the leaf had 30 kWh then so would the golf. It's rather sad that that's the best available since the leaf came out, reasonably priced that is.

There is no reason to make such shitty cars, VW could offer a 10 kWh ev with a decent engine.

 

[spike09]

I still believe that a diesel hybrid is the ultimate ICE power plant.

Diesel fumes cause Cancer. Even Clean Diesel.

http://m.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/pollution/diesel-exhaust" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[theaveng]

So too does gasoline fumes. And coal/CNG fumes (electricity generation). Fortunately we have ways to CLEAN this exhaust. Electrical plants have "scrubbers" to capture or neutralize pollutants & diesel cars also scrub their exhaust so they no longer have soot emissions (see Diesel Exhaust Fluid). EDUCATE yourself about modern technologies, instead of living in the past decade (2009).

 

[theaveng]

One of the common themes is something to the effect of "Don't waste your money on a hybrid or EV, get a diesel."

I wouldn't waste money on a diesel either. It still costs around 25,000 dollars, and you can get a gasoline car for sub-15,000.

As for EVs, well I do a lot of crosscountry trips (or cross-California trips from LA to SanFran). An EV can't really do that, unless you want to stop every 3 hours for a recharge (which I don't).

 

[Berlino]

As for EVs, well I do a lot of crosscountry trips (or cross-California trips from LA to SanFran). An EV can't really do that, unless you want to stop every 3 hours for a recharge (which I don't).

What percentage of the population does a lot of cross-country trips?

People probably transport furniture more often than they drive cross-country, but most cars are lousy at that. I guess we should only buy pick-ups.

 

[spike09]

WELCOME TO THE DECADE OF THE NEW EV

 

[spike09]

So too does gasoline fumes. And coal/CNG fumes (electricity generation). Fortunately we have ways to CLEAN this exhaust. Electrical plants have "scrubbers" to capture or neutralize pollutants & diesel cars also scrub their exhaust so they no longer have soot emissions (see Diesel Exhaust Fluid). EDUCATE yourself about modern technologies, instead of living in the past decade (2009).

My original post was "Diesel fumes cause Cancer. Even Clean Diesel. " I did not bother addressing the transportation related cancers linked to hybrids and EVs as a matter of brevity. Nor did I bother with the overall pros and cons based upon a Life-Cycle Assessment.

If you are aware of advance technology, you must be aware it is not always an improvement even when properly implemented. Reducing particulate emissions can make our environment more toxic. Carbon sequestration and ground water contamination are a perfect example.

Diesel exhaust fumes, EVEN AFTER BEING CLEANED, are still linked to Lung cancer as well as cancers of the larynx, esophagus, stomach, and bladder. Gasoline and gasoline exhaust fumes, EVEN AFTER BEING CLEANED, are still linked to leukemia and other blood-related cancers.

Advanced scrubbers are capable of filtering much smaller soot particles. The problem is the remaining unfiltered soot particles are so small that our lungs can not filter them out. SOOT causes tens of thousands of deaths in the US every year. In 2010, 3.2 million people died prematurely from outdoor air pollution, mainly in Asia, and mainly from soot and other pollutants from diesel cars and trucks.

EVs are part of the solution right now.

They are one of the great advancement in modern technology. They have no exhaust and benefit directly as our power grid gets cleaner.

Currently 40% of EVs are powered by roof-top solar installations.

WELCOME TO THE DECADE OF THE NEW EV

 

[cwerdna]

Currently the majority of EVs are in California, which used Hydro-Electric power.

Actually, hydroelectric does not make up a large part of the energy mix for my electric utility (in CA). Try plugging in 95136 (not my zip, but same mix as mine) into http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/energy-and-you/how-clean.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. 53% for me is from natural gas, which is very clean burning. 12.7% is from hydro. The mix seems the same if I plug in 90024 (a So Cal zip).

If you want lots of hydro, try 98052 (in WA state). It's 46.5% hydro but also 29.8% coal and 15.2% nat gas.

 

[spike09]

Do you have the option for green pricing, allowing you to pay a small premium in exchange for electricity generated from clean, renewable energy sources?

 

[cwerdna]

Do you have the option for green pricing, allowing you to pay a small premium in exchange for electricity generated from clean, renewable energy sources?

Don't think so.

I found http://www.pge.com/about/newsroom/newsreleases/20120424/pge_announces_new_green_energy_program_to_give_electric_customers_more_renewable_options.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; then http://www.pge.com/greenoption/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Interestingly, the mix at http://www.pge.com/en/about/environment/pge/cleanenergy/index.page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; differs significantly from the EPA page I cited which gets data from the below.

Power Profiler currently uses year 2009 data from EPA’s Emissions & Generation Resource Integrated Database (eGRID).