Considering Leaf lease in Atlanta GA - advice?

[gotkwah]

Hey guys.

Several of my friends just leased new leafs due to a GA tax rebate of $5000. I am considering doing the same and I have spent many hours reading up on this forum. I am mostly considering the SV, dont think i would be happy with the S, and the SL is not in the equation at all.

Unfortunately, I do not have a standard "commute" to work. I am a real estate agent and my office is 1 mile away from home. Sometimes i spend the entire day in the office, others i spend all day driving. (I put about 10k miles a year on my ICE) I rented the leaf for a couple days and its been fine, so i think the car could work for me. (I can always trade with my wife for days i need to do a lot of driving). Additional, i could install 240v outlets at both my home and office relatively inexpensively, and do the http://evseupgrade.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if i see that i need faster charge times.

A few questions:
1) battery degradation- i see a lot of talk about it in HOT climates like AZ & TX, what about in GA? summers are pretty brutal here, but not as bad as Az & TX. Is battery degradation an issue to consider for a 2 yr lease in GA?
2) Pricing- anyone recently lease a leaf in the Atlanta area and can share the pricing they got?
3) other options - is there any other car i should be considering? i like the Rav4ev but its not available here and i dont think i want to deal with the warranty issues that might come up using a dealer outside of CA
4) anything else - is there anything else i should know?

TIA

 

[Assaf]

Hi,

Sounds like you've done a pretty thorough homework! It is impressive for someone with highly irregular and occasionally-demanding commute to consider a Leaf. Means we're becoming mainstream... if the deal works for you, you should be saving tons of $$ vs. an ICE car, plus helping the environment.

I think you are right that installing 240V in the office is paramount for your case, b/c then whenever you return to the office from site appointments you will be able to replenish some 30% of your battery in an hour with the 6.6kW charger. Not sure whether you need one at home as well... a 12-hour overnight will usually get you back to the 80%. A DC fast-charge in your case is also a must; not sure how good the Atlanta coverage is right now but it's bound to improve.

One disclaimer you should be aware of is that Nissan strongly recommends charging only to 80% on most days, and keeping the 100% full-range charge only to special days (road trips, out-of-town day trips, especially heavy driving days, etc.). Assuming that on some days in Atlanta the weather might be too insufferable to drive without A/C (A/C can easily cut your range by 20%), your work routine needs to be one in which the longest typical single drives (or drive sequences) without time/opportunity for charging are <60 miles. That's the Leaf's realistic effective single-charge range for daily use.

Fortunately again, as a real-estate agent tooling about town you should have plenty of opportunities recharging at the office, trickle-charging at home sites if you spend a lengthy time there, or when all else fails DC fast-charging somewhere on the way. But you know your routine, and should check that these range/charge capabilities match your needs.

Living in cool Seattle, I don't know much about the hot-weather depletion issues, but I think they were confined to regions with substantial stretches of 100-110+ temperatures, which AFAIK are rare in Atlanta. But others more knowledgeable can chime in on that.

As to price, I think you can custom-order an S with the fast-charge and 6.6kW 240V port (called "the charge package" or something), and it comes up to maybe $1000 less than the SV trim (in which those are standard).

Good luck!

Assaf

 

[Assaf]

Two clarifications: 1. When I said "DC charge is a must" I meant of course a DC charge port (socket). The contraption itself is not something private people buy, rather it's like an EV gas station pump.

2. Of course, if you charge to 100% then your single-drive range might be close to 80 miles with A/C and 100 miles without it. So if you have these >60 no-charge mile days only once in a while (I dunno, 2 per month or less), it's not a problem. However, if they happen very often you'll end up needing to charge to 100% very often and that might deplete your battery faster.

 

[gotkwah]

Thanks Assaf.

In addition to the questions in the OP,

5) What kind of maintenance does the car require in the first 2 years?
6) does lots of plugging & unplugging hurt the battery? lets say i regularly only charge to 80%. should i constantly be plugging my car in, even if i just drove 5 miles, or should i only be charging when it is more significantly depleted?

 

[nogajim]

With a two year lease, you should be spared of most of the battery issues. I bought one two years ago and just lost my first capacity bar. As a leaser, you would be less concerned about practices that are not good for longevity and could concern yourself more with making sure the Leaf was ready when you are. Charging to 80% most days will be fine for the battery. I use the Leaf timer to have the charging complete about an hour before work so it is not fully charged for long. If you know you will need more miles you can restart charging and it will be close to 100% by the time you leave or you can top off at work. And if you find that you need 100% most days, you can probably get away with it for a couple of years.

There is still no public functional DC Quick charge in Georgia, but hopefully there will be soon, but they may or may not be convenient for you. The 6.6 kw charger (vs the 3.3 on the S) will be more likely to get you topped off when you need it than the quick charge port.

 

[Assaf]

gotkwah hi,

First I'd like to qualify my recommendation that you might not need an L2 at home. Again it's a good idea to have all your needs in view. How often do you go out again (errands, child activities, going out) a couple of hours after arriving from work? An L2 would nicely top you off for these, while a trickle would only.... well, trickle.

Second, I think a good rule of thumb is *not* to hook up your car to any charger unless you're going to add at least 10-15% to the battery. Not worth it for your time and for the battery's life. I'm not a battery expert, but common sense indeed suggests that frequent and superfluous charging does not help.

As to maintenance, the 6-month service is ridiculously short: barely 1 hour, just checking tires/wheels (brakes?) and fluids (which of course doesn't include engine oil
At 1 year I think they do a battery and EVSE check. Mine is due in a month or so. It's best someone with 2+ years experience answer that. When we signed the lease deal the dealer managed to sell us a $30/month (+tax) prepaid service. I think given the egregious hourly rate at dealer service shops, we will just about break even with the 3-4 scheduled services.

 

[greengate]

If you really love the car, it's like a good marriage.

Give some, take some and in the end you will have found a way to make it work.

 

[gotkwah]

i would love to get some feedback on my questions from other leaf owners. especially others in GA.

also, do you guys find the carwings app very useful?

 

[Reddy]

Simple answers:
1) Lease for 2 yr (don't have to worry about battery degradation much)
2) Get SL or SV with 6.6 KW charger for faster L2 charging
3) Install 30 amp L2 charger at work (40 amp circuit)
4) L1 (12 Amp, 120 V) charge at home overnight in garage (no station needed)
5) L2 (30 amp, 240 V) charge at office as needed. An hour L2 gives about 6 KW (1/4 battery) or 20 mi.
6) Only charge when battery gets below 80% (don't need to plug in every time)

You should be able to do most of your charging at the office (unless you have a long client run right before quitting time). In addition, L1 overnight will normally replenish at least half, and maybe 75% of the battery. With the short commute and unknown daily need, I see this more as a logistics problem. Take your farthest trip (say to the outskirts of your coverage area) and calculate required use. Let's assume 40 mi RT and 4 mi/KWH consumption, or about 10 KWH from the battery (maybe 12 KW from the wall). After you take that trip, you plug in at 6 KW, or about 2 hrs to replace. If you can arrange those "longest" trips to be before lunch or going home, then you have ample time to replenish. Also, remember, if you have shorter trips after the longest trip, there still will always be some amount of time charging. Even in the worst case, you might park, plug-in, get into the office, review a fax, read email, get coffee, etc. before heading back out. That's easily 10 min, close to 1 KWH or another 4 miles. For your use, as long as you're below 80%, I don't see a problem with plugging in every time you return to your office. I'd set the timers for 80% charging 24/7 and call it good.

 

[gotkwah]

is the issue with 80-100% just about (1)not leaving it charged that full for an extended period or (2)about not charging it that full too often?

if #1, then you could set the car to go from 80-100 when you wake up, so it wont stay that way for long, right?

if #2, i guess there is nothing to be done other than live with 80% range most of the time?

 

[Reddy]

I don't think this is much of an issue and I certainly don't have much experience with this. Maybe others will chime in. I remember reading something about the battery management system needs to get below 80% (there's something special about that level in the battery chemistry and the voltage) before being recharged, otherwise the system has trouble estimating when the battery is full or how much more to put in. So, neither #1 or #2 in your example. No, you aren't restricted to just using the 80%. Charge to 100% if you'd like and especially if your driving needs require it. However, don't just keep plugging it in to keep it "topped up". Let it get below 80% during a drive BEFORE you plug it back in and charge it up the next time.

I've only done "double topped it" once, and did experience "weird" behavior in the range guess-o-meter (GOM). I normally charge to 40-60 % and only drive 5-15 mi in any one day. My battery is still in pretty good shape, most of my driving is in town between 25-45 mph, so my GOM gives me a very large guess at full charge (it's about 115 mi now, but was 130 mi when new). Also, my driving is very flat and so I always get about the same miles per battery bar used. On the day in question, I planned a 100 mi RT day, so I charged to full overnight and got 114 on the GOM. I then drove 6 mi at 35 mph for coffee, barely using any charge, only dropping down to 11 out of 12 battery bars. I then re-plugged in (ignoring Nissan's advice). When I returned an hour or so later to the full battery, ready to leave, the GOM said 90 mi I was stunned, and a bit nervous that I had done something bad to the battery. Well, nothing bad happened, but I continued to see weird GOM behavior during the trip (number stayed essentially constant for 10 mi on the highway, battery bars lasted much longer than normal, etc.). In the end, I made the 100 mi trip, with some charging at stops, fully loaded with four people, although I consumed more power than I normally have done on this route due to the higher speed and extra weight.

 

[TomT]

No, it makes no difference in the instrumentation accuracy. It does have a potential affect on battery degradation, however...

I remember reading something about the battery management system needs to get below 80% (there's something special about that level in the battery chemistry and the voltage) before being recharged, otherwise the system has trouble estimating when the battery is full or how much more to put in.

 

[gotkwah]

is the included EVSE weatherproof?

what about after i do an upgrade from evseupgrade.com? i would like to instal an L6-30 outlet outside my house to use with the upgraded evse unit.

the best price i have manged to negotiate is for an SV with no upgrade packages - $2500/down + 260/mo for 24 months. (supposedly this is an out the door price. i fully expect them to try and add some fees in when im ready to sign). how does this price look? i would really love to getit closer to what my friend paid last month - $1500 down, 250/mo x 23 months...

would still love to get more opinions from other owners on my original q's in the OP.

thanks all!

 

[cgaydos]

is the included EVSE weatherproof?

what about after i do an upgrade from evseupgrade.com? i would like to instal an L6-30 outlet outside my house to use with the upgraded evse unit.

Yes, as long as you are using an outlet receptical that is designed for exterior use and installed per code. The same applies to the EVSEupgrade.

 

[RonDawg]

5) What kind of maintenance does the car require in the first 2 years?

Very little. Mostly it will be tire rotations, preventative checks, and battery checks. The last one is required to be done at a Leaf-certified Nissan dealer around the yearly anniversary date of your purchase, and the first two battery checks are free. All the other checks and services can be done by any mechanic you choose, or even yourself if you have the skills and the tools.

Tire rotations are recommended every 6 months or 7500 miles. The in-cabin micro filter is recommended to be changed once a year or over 15k miles. Brake fluid flush is recommended at 2 years/30k miles, but if you lease for 24 months you won't have to worry about this. Coolant will not need to be changed (only the level maintained) until the car is 5 years old/has 75k miles.

6) does lots of plugging & unplugging hurt the battery? lets say i regularly only charge to 80%. should i constantly be plugging my car in, even if i just drove 5 miles, or should i only be charging when it is more significantly depleted?

Per the Leaf Wiki (link at the top of the page) you should let the charge drop below 80% before plugging in again. I would not plug in if you only drove 5 miles from an 80% charge, unless it was 5 miles up a rather steep hill in winter with the heater full blast. I would say hold off on plugging in again unless no more than 9 charge bars are showing (67-72% full).

FYI one of the ways to void the warranty is to repeatedly charge to 100% while the battery is already nearly full. This is one of the things they look for in the yearly battery check.

 

[nogajim]

Your office location may be eligible for the federally sponsored EV Project, which is closing out soon in the Atlanta area. For commercial sites you can receive a free Blink charging station and up to $1000 towards installation and the station becomes yours at the end of the year. If you are interested you will need to move on it within the next 2-4 weeks. PM me if you want contact information for the local contact.

 

[cgaydos]

is the issue with 80-100% just about (1)not leaving it charged that full for an extended period or (2)about not charging it that full too often?

if #1, then you could set the car to go from 80-100 when you wake up, so it wont stay that way for long, right?

if #2, i guess there is nothing to be done other than live with 80% range most of the time?

So after reading everything and playing with the timers here's the simplified approach we settled on:

1) Our LEAFs are set to charge to 80% all the time. When parked at home they are plugged in. If below 80% they will automatically start charging to 80%
2) On occasions when we think we might need more range we simply push the button that turns the charge timer off anywhere from 30-60 minutes before leaving. 30 minutes gives a bit more charge yet still allows for regenerative braking (pretty much any trip we make from home starts out downhill). 60 minutes (actually closer to 40-45) puts it to 100%.

The main negative impact of 100% charges on the battery is if the car sits in that state for any period of time. The general recommendation on this forum is that 100% charge is okay if you start driving immediately afterwards. By "okay" I don't mean ideal - ideal is to keep the charge in the 30-60% range at all times - but by "okay" I mean allows you to get the maximum usefulness out of the LEAF with the minimum negative impact on the battery.

The one exception to my approach above is that if you are leaving the car parked, and not driven, for a multi-week period you probably don't want to leave it plugged in. At least on the 2011s and 2012s the act of keeping the car plugged in but not turned on will drain the 12 volt battery with no chance to recharge it. People have actually come back from long trips and found the car wouldn't start and needed a classic 12V battery jump from another car.

 

[Assaf]

@gotkwah, AFAIU curing the 80%-100% charging stage the battery (and EVSE?) heats much more than before that. That, beside the added depletion when the car sits @100%. *All* this being said, when you need the 100% you should charge to 100%. Hopefully your needs are met within the 80% the majority of days.

Since you plan to lease, if you do think that you'll need to go to 100% most days - it might be a good idea to find ppl with 2011 Leafs at similar climates to yours (California should be good enough), who charged to 100% and already returned their lease. There are quite a few such members on this forum, I think.

Did Nissan find "too much depletion" and penalize them for it? My gut feel is no. So my sense is that for lessees it's more about best practices than a fateful economic decision.

Hope this helps... please do keep the forum posted regarding your decision!