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TRONZ

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
2,240
Location
Denver, CO
As everyone saw, yesterday was a record for tornado activity and related deaths across the southern U.S. April has been a record month for these crazy storms and, if history is correct, May should be even worse! It was good to see that alot of news stations and reporters were asking "what is causing all this?", "it's just not normal", BUT none came out and stated Climate Change. Why? I get that some people dislike facts but the vast majority of Americans are very reasonable people. At what point do Americans sit up and say "now hold on a minute, none of this is normal!... we need to do something!!!"

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/article.html
 
If you:
*had 100 people sitting in comfortable chairs
*there was a ticking time bomb 100 feet away
*all you would have to do to stop it is have 10 people get up and push a big button on the bomb

Most people's first reaction is to sit there, dumbly looking at one another to see if 10 others get up.
We all want the change, but most people are just to dang lazy to make any effort.
 
Worst month ever, since tornado records were started and worst single day outbreak since 1974.
 
While you will find me supporting climate change theory, you will not find me linking single weather events to it. The statistics are simply not there - and you will not find any respected climate scientist do the same. They may say in very broad terms what climate change will or will not increase/decrease the chances of things happening... but that's about it.

IMO - claiming that these extreme weather events are caused by climate change very often has the opposite effect on people who do not yet grasp the concept of climate change...

BTW - Jeff Master's blog on the Wunderground often discusses these extreme weather events and climate change. He provides what I think is a pretty balanced view on the subject. He has some recent posts on the subject.
 
Thanks for the link. I copied it into the OP as he provides some startling facts about the recent storms. I am also not just interested in single events but far more interested in the unprecedented month as a whole. And beyond that, the year overall.
 
smkettner said:
Worst on record? By what measure? How far back do these records go?
I say it is normal although rare.
"Twister Deaths Now at 329, Worst Since 1932"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42813800/ns/weather/

There are still people missing, so it may get worse.
 
The "worst month on record" is based on the number of confirmed tornados for this month. I believe this record was broken BEFORE yesterday's tornados which have not been added in yet.
 
weather extremes will happen and records are made to be broken. but there is a general guideline as to how many records should be set yearly and the pace of record extremes being set has increased over the past 15 years.

now, this does not imply a weather pattern change caused by greenhouse gases or anything else. the time frame is simply too short and several short cold or hot periods have been recorded and we might simply be in one of those patterns. problem is it will take decades before we know for sure.

either way, its like a kid that keeps leaning on the screen door. we all know that even though the screen is not damaged, the screen will wear out faster due its not being handled properly.

our environment is suffering the same abuse and can greatly affect climate change. we all know that several ecosystems have huge control over the weather and a change to that ecosystem can have catastrophic effects on the opposite side of the world.

the reduction of swamplands, wetlands and rainforests will have long lasting and possibly irreversible effects on weather patterns that may force a population realignment of coastal areas and we probably wont like it
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
the reduction of swamplands, wetlands and rainforests will have long lasting and possibly irreversible effects on weather patterns that may force a population realignment of coastal areas and we probably wont like it
"we probably wont like it", huh? Beautiful understatement.

Frankly, I think our nation has gone crazy. Half of us are screaming about the future catastrophic financial effects of trillion dollar deficits, while the other half of us hide our heads in the sand. Half of us are screaming about the future catastrophic financial effects of not stopping climate change while the other half of us hide our heads in the sand.

I happen to think the climate change issue is much more important, because there is a lot more than finance at stake. But regardless of what each of you think, we all need to stop sticking our heads in the sand over either issue.

Ray
 
smkettner said:
Worst on record? By what measure? How far back do these records go?
I say it is normal although rare.

Normal is an EF-5 (200+mph) that hit 6 states over a 5-6 hour period that measured at least a half mile wide? Try looking up 'normal' tornadoes and you will NEVER find one like this one.
 
dont forget the asteroids, there are billions of them out there and they are proven climate changers.. do something about it!
 
It appears that there isn't any scientific data to tell whether tornadoes are getting more frequent with climate change:

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=910&tstamp=200802

However, for those who wish to be educated, there is continually increasing evidence for human caused climate change. The best site for the layman is:

http://climateprogress.org

Joe Romm, who runs climateprogress, has a PhD in physics from MIT. He served as Acting Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Department of Energy, in charge of the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy during 1997 and as Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary from August 1995 through June 1998, and Special Assistant for Policy and Planning from 1993 to July 1995.
 
planet4ever said:
I happen to think the climate change issue is much more important, because there is a lot more than finance at stake. But regardless of what each of you think, we all need to stop sticking our heads in the sand over either issue.

Ray

i agree with you except that i also think combating climate change requires most of the change to be "in house". its too much to try to tell other countries what to do. we need to be the leader on this. we need to show the world a viable plan and we do that by simply "doing it!"

this will create huge recycling revenue streams within our country which will increase the tax revenue, get more people working.

there are many probable causes of climate change and one is the changing composition of the air we breathe. increasing CO2 not only warms the planet, but also causes other plants, microbes, bateria, etc to thrive. some of which most likely will upset the food chain. this change may also be unwelcome so there is many reasons to not want to double our CO2 concentration. Global Warming is one, but we simply dont really know what other problems we are causing
 
Let's skip all the bloggers and 'common people on the street' and polls and focus groups and all the other garbage sources of 'information' out there. Let's go right to the top - to organizations that do not have a political agenda but instead serve the communication and training needs of the entire profession. These groups have very high expertise in the field, have training and practice recognizing bias, have little to no influence from external politics, and have long-running reputations to protect. Statements from the organization are peer-reviewed and have broad consensus from the member body.

National Academy of Sciences
Founded in 1863
10% of members are Nobel Prize winners.
Recognized as representing the best science has to offer.

http://www.nationalacademies.org/includes/G8+5energy-climate09.pdf
The IPCC 2007 Fourth Assessment of climate change science concluded that large reductions in the emissions of greenhouse gases, principally CO2, are needed soon to slow the increase of atmospheric concentrations, and avoid reaching unacceptable levels.

However, climate change is happening even faster than previously estimated; global CO2 emissions since 2000 have been higher than even the highest predictions, Arctic sea ice has been melting at rates much faster than predicted, and the rise in the sea level has become more rapid. Feedbacks in the climate system might lead to much more rapid climate changes.

The American Association for the Advancement of Science
Largest scientific society in the world
144,000 members
Founded in 1848
Has published the highly-respected journal SCIENCE since 1880

2006 official position statement on climate change:
http://www.aaas.org/news/press_room/climate_change/mtg_200702/aaas_climate_statement.pdf
The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a growing threat to society. Accumulating data from across the globe reveal a wide array of effects: rapidly melting glaciers, destabilization of major ice sheets, increases in extreme weather, rising sea level, shifts in species ranges, and more. The pace of change and the evidence of harm have increased markedly over the last five years. The time to control greenhouse gas emissions is now.

From 20 May 2010 address to Congress:
http://www7.nationalacademies.org/ocga/testimony/Climate_Science_in_the_Political_Arena.asp
The panel report on Advancing the Science of Climate Change reviews the scientific evidence for climate change in more detail than I did today and it examines the status of the nation’s current scientific research efforts. The report says “A strong, credible body of scientific evidence shows that climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities, and poses significant risks for a broad range of human and natural systems.

In addition, we have statements from a number of other organizations - not as large, not as significant as the AAAS and NAS necessarily, yet significant in the makeup of their membership - like oil companies, energy companies, and the military. This message is echoed by CEOs of oil companies, the US Intelligence Community, the Pentagon, Center for Naval Analysis, and other organizations - including the US Climate Action Partnership (USCAP). http://www.us-cap.org/

The USCAP includes members from:
AES
Alcoa
Alstom
Boston Scientific Corporation
Chrysler
The Dow Chemical Company
Duke Energy
DuPont
Environmental Defense Fund
Exelon Corporation
Ford Motor Company
General Electric
Honeywell
Johnson & Johnson
Natural Resources Defense Council
NextEra Energy
NRG Energy
PepsiCo
Pew Center on Global Climate Change
PG&E Corporation
PNM Resources
Rio Tinto
Shell
Siemens Corporation
The Nature Conservancy
Weyerhaeuser
World Resources Institute
They state, in their Call for Action (http://us-cap.org/USCAPCallForAction.pdf):

We Know Enough to Act on Climate Change
In June 2005, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences joined with the scientific academies of ten other countries in stating that “the scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt actions.”

Each year we delay action to control emissions increases the risk of unavoidable consequences that could necessitate even steeper reductions in the future, at potentially greater economic cost and social disruption. Action sooner rather than later preserves valuable response options, narrows the uncertainties associated with changes to the climate, and should lower the costs of mitigation and adaptation.

For these reasons, we, the members of the U.S. Climate Action Partnership (USCAP) have joined together to recommend the prompt enactment of national legislation in the United States to slow, stop and reverse the growth of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions over the shortest period of time reasonably achievable.

The "Hansen paper" from 2008 is easily available and easy to digest.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0804.1126v3
Paleoclimate data show that climate sensitivity is ~3 deg-C for doubled CO2, including only fast feedback processes. Equilibrium sensitivity, including slower surface albedo feedbacks, is ~6 deg-C for doubled CO2 for the range of climate states between glacial conditions and ice-free Antarctica. Decreasing CO2 was the main cause of a cooling trend that began 50 million years ago, large scale glaciation occurring when CO2 fell to 450 +/- 100 ppm, a level that will be exceeded within decades, barring prompt policy changes. If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, paleoclimate evidence and ongoing climate change suggest that CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm to at most 350 ppm. The largest uncertainty in the target arises from possible changes of non-CO2 forcings. An initial 350 ppm CO2 target may be achievable by phasing out coal use except where CO2 is captured and adopting agricultural and forestry practices that sequester carbon. If the present overshoot of this target CO2 is not brief, there is a possibility of seeding irreversible catastrophic effects.
[This paper ignores methane emissions as they were fairly well under control when the research was being conducted. The shale gas boom has, in my opinion, turned that around - and it makes Hansen et al.'s position even more conservative than it already is.]

These are facts from the top. There are ZERO bodies of this stature in the 'denier' or 'skeptic' camp.

It's long past time to stop debating and start acting - unless we have a lead on a new planet to move to when we finish this one off.

A number of months back I read a statement that suggested that climate change deniers should be tried for crimes against humanity. At the time this suggestion bothered me a great deal. The more I learn the more I agree with the sentiment.

There are some here that are in the denier camp - and that's OK and I fully support their right to speak their conscience (notice that word has 'science' in it? Cool huh?). But I strongly recommend they not get in the way of those working to keep us well clear of a climate tipping point. Or at least wear a helmet and cup when they do... ;)
 
Stoaty said:
It appears that there isn't any scientific data to tell whether tornadoes are getting more frequent with climate change...
Sorry, no. Science has been warning of increasing effects from the beginning! More frequent catastrophic storms, more frequent droughts, more frequent deluges, more frequent fires (like, oh, 1.5 million acres of Texas charred for instance?)...

So no - science hasn't the ability to say: "on June 14th of 2011 there will be a series of two hurricanes in rapid succession in the Gulf of Mexico larger than 6 that will make the destruction of New Orleans look like a normal Upstate NY lake effect snow storm." But science has been continuously refining their ability to measure and predict since the late 1890s and the message is clear - warming water increases the number and severity of hurricanes and cyclones. Warmer air increases evaporation (desertification) and leads to deluges (catastrophic floods). All weather on the planet is caused by differences in air and surface temperatures - and more extreme temperatures leads directly to more extreme weather. And that includes tornadoes.

What do we think this statement means?
The stakes, for all life on the planet, surpass those of any previous crisis. The greatest danger is continued ignorance and denial, which could make tragic consequences unavoidable.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0804/0804.1126.pdf
 
Unfortunately the big corporations who have billions at stake, their "friends" in congress and in the media, have been spreading so much misinformation that even some people smart enough to buy LEAFs doubt the facts on climate change that should be self evident.

AndyH said:
Sorry, no. Science has been warning of increasing effects from the beginning! More frequent catastrophic storms, more frequent droughts, more frequent deluges, more frequent fires (like, oh, 1.5 million acres of Texas charred for instance?)...
 
While no single event can be definitively linked to climate change, increased extreme weather phenomenon is consistant with what climate change would bring about.

By the time the last denier starts believing, it will be too late. Unfortunately, Homo Sapiens are not wired to act upon huge long term risks, so there is little chance of us not changing earth into an unrecognizable planet in a few decades.
 
Fabio said:
Unfortunately the big corporations who have billions at stake, their "friends" in congress and in the media, have been spreading so much misinformation that even some people smart enough to buy LEAFs doubt the facts on climate change that should be self evident.

AndyH said:
Sorry, no. Science has been warning of increasing effects from the beginning! More frequent catastrophic storms, more frequent droughts, more frequent deluges, more frequent fires (like, oh, 1.5 million acres of Texas charred for instance?)...

Absolutely Fabio. The good news is that we can learn to filter the flow of information - moving reliable info from known good sources up the credibility scale, and demoting sources that have strong bias or funding ties to questionable bodies.

Here's one way to 'rack and stack' the info: http://www.manpollo.org/statements/statements.html If you're familiar with the author and the background, you remember that this has been under development since about 1990, has been reviewed by science professionals in the climate field, and while not definitive, I find it to be a worthwhile tool to have.

credibility.jpg
 
AndyH said:
Stoaty said:
It appears that there isn't any scientific data to tell whether tornadoes are getting more frequent with climate change...
Sorry, no. Science has been warning of increasing effects from the beginning! More frequent catastrophic storms, more frequent droughts, more frequent deluges, more frequent fires (like, oh, 1.5 million acres of Texas charred for instance?)...
Warning is not the same as measuring an actual effect. In the case of tornadoes, Jeff Masters points out that there aren't any reliable measurements to tell us whether this is actually happening. Read the article referenced to see why this is so. Of course, there are plenty of other measurements which DO confirm that climate change is occurring as predicted from basic science.
 
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