Chicagoland area

[GRA]

From an efficiency/lowest cost point of view, I think Chevy set the max. speed for EV mode a bit high at 70 mph.

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean. The Volt has no maximum EV mode speed other than around 100 MPH which is the overall maximum speed. As long as you have usable charge left in the battery the gas engine will stay off under all speeds. If you want to reserve or generate some battery charge for EV driving off the highway at your destination after a trip that is longer than the EV-only battery range then that is also easy.

I was referring to the speed at which the Volt allows the engine to drive the 'other' motor. The method Honda is using is what I think is more useful generally, although in cases where your one-way or round-trip commute range is within the Volt's (or any other PHEV's) AER range that is clearly the lowest operating cost (if not usually the lowest total cost of ownership).

I assume the planetary gear set could be modified to change the ratio slightly and optimize things for the ICE at a lower speed. Some people can certainly use it for their commutes, but my feeling is if you're cruising at 100 km/h (62mph) or faster, traffic is flowing freely and the gas engine is more efficient in that range. I think the Pip or maybe the Accord PHEV (which works more like the Volt than the PiP does) cut-off at 62 makes more sense.

That seems like an odd comment coming from an EV owner. What makes you think burning gasoline is more efficient or lower-cost at speeds over 62 mph versus an electric motor? Gas engines are only more efficient at modest highway speeds in the sense that they are much less efficient at lower speed start/stop city driving (Prius etc., excepted). A Volt (or LEAF) driving at 75 MPH on battery is almost certainly running at lower operating cost than any gasoline engine car at that speed. In fact, at higher highway speeds the Volt is slightly more efficient than the LEAF in part because it switches to using both of its electric motors together though the planetary gears so each can run closer to its ideal RPM efficiency. In contrast, the PiP (and apparently the Accord PHEV) force you to use gasoline at speeds above 62 mph even if your entire commute is entirely within your battery range as it is for many people. The PiP's use of gasoline at these speeds is due to power limitations due to its small battery pack and mechanical efficiency limitations due to its transmission design.

First of all, let me correct your misapprehension. I'm not an EV owner, because they don't currently suit my situation and needs. As to my comment about the gas engine being more efficient at freeway cruising speeds, sloppy wording on my part. As you point out, I was comparing it to itself in stop and go, urban driving, not directly comparing it to EV operating efficiency. We are in agreement about the advantages and disadvantages of the various PHEV modes. However, I'm considering lowest lifetime cost as well as reducing emissions where they matter most (built-up urban areas), and taking those two together, the Honda method is superior to the Volt's.

The PiP can be good for people with 10-12 mile total commutes or 20-24 if they can recharge at work. Otherwise, you are starting the gas engine even at speeds below 62 or with stronger acceleration. A Volt with a battery 3.5 times the size of the PiP battery (4.4 kWh vs 16 kWh) is only $2,500 more when comparing the base models for each car after the tax credit. That's about $215 per kWh of battery at the pack-level which is a good deal if you can put it to good use. PiP is also good if you drive a lot of very long trips where you can take advantage of the 48 mpg EPA highway estimate versus 40 mpg for the Volt.

And there's the problem - the Volt only has these benefits because of the way the incentives are structured, indeed, the incentives are what make the car remotely affordable and they won't be around forever, and depending on the results of the election may disappear quite soon. Compare the Volt @ $40K to the base PiP @ $32k, to the base Prius @ $24k. If PHEVs are going to be acceptable to mainstream consumers (with U.S. median family incomes of just under $50k), as opposed to early adopters with far more disposable income (Leaf owner MFI $140k; Volt owner MFI $170k), then initial price and lifetime cost matter, and the only way to get those down is to use the minimum battery that will do the job until gas price increases and battery price decreases change the equation. See

http://www.cmu.edu/me/ddl/publications/2009-EP-Shiau-Samaras-Hauffe-Michalek-PHEV-Weight-Charging.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope I've clarified my views.

 

[Herm]

If PHEVs are going to be acceptable to mainstream consumers (with U.S. median family incomes of just under $50k), as opposed to early adopters with far more disposable income (Leaf owner MFI $140k; Volt owner MFI $170k)

GRA, families with an income of $50k should not be buying new cars, and they wont benefit from any tax credit since I doubt they have enough tax liability.

 

[GRA]

If PHEVs are going to be acceptable to mainstream consumers (with U.S. median family incomes of just under $50k), as opposed to early adopters with far more disposable income (Leaf owner MFI $140k; Volt owner MFI $170k)

GRA, families with an income of $50k should not be buying new cars, and they wont benefit from any tax credit since I doubt they have enough tax liability.

I certainly agree that they won't be buying $40k Volts (In California $31k after applicable rebates, most of which they don't qualify for), but they can afford $18-20k for a Cruze if they wish, or $16k for Honda Fit. My family income has always been well on the low side of $50k, yet I've bought two new cars and paid cash for both. But then I keep them until they wear out, like most people who can't afford to churn cars every 3 years.

 

[tps]

If PHEVs are going to be acceptable to mainstream consumers (with U.S. median family incomes of just under $50k), as opposed to early adopters with far more disposable income (Leaf owner MFI $140k; Volt owner MFI $170k)

GRA, families with an income of $50k should not be buying new cars, and they wont benefit from any tax credit since I doubt they have enough tax liability.

In general, I agree. This is why I've never bought a new car. The LEAF was different, for me. I wanted to have the EV driving experience without waiting for the LEAF to become widely availabe on the used market. I wouldn't have had enough tax liability, but since I leased, the $7500 showed up as part of the downpayment. With the addition of my trade-in, no actual money changed hands when I picked the car up and my lease payment is a bit less than $300/mo. The LEAF is my first new car and I'm very glad to have it.

 

[redLEAF]

If PHEVs are going to be acceptable to mainstream consumers (with U.S. median family incomes of just under $50k), as opposed to early adopters with far more disposable income (Leaf owner MFI $140k; Volt owner MFI $170k)

GRA, families with an income of $50k should not be buying new cars, and they wont benefit from any tax credit since I doubt they have enough tax liability.

In general, I agree. This is why I've never bought a new car. The LEAF was different, for me. I wanted to have the EV driving experience without waiting for the LEAF to become widely availabe on the used market. I wouldn't have had enough tax liability, but since I leased, the $7500 showed up as part of the downpayment. With the addition of my trade-in, no actual money changed hands when I picked the car up and my lease payment is a bit less than $300/mo. The LEAF is my first new car and I'm very glad to have it.

Wow, get busy with other things (like going to the Chicago Auto Show) and things go wild on this thread ... as we have all incomes and ages here and anyone's economic status can change quite a bit over time (as well as the prices for new cars; the average price of which I 've heard was around $28K now) we should agree that each situation will be different; EV's and by that I mean any, whether a PiP, PHV, BEV or most hybrids (but not all, more on that later) aren't for every socioeconomic status out there. Our LEAF is just one of 4 cars we have in a 3 driver family. I bought it simply because IL offers a 10% MSRP rebate rather than lease it which would disqualify it, deduct a 6 year old trade-in and the eventual out of pocket will be a little over $18K but I needed to write a check for almost $32K at delivery with taxes, license fees, etc. and some comes back as a check (IL EPA rebate; and the dealer goof overcharge for the 'EL' plates) and the rest gets deducted off our income taxes (fed credit, state taxes, etc.) for which we're 'fortunate' enough to pay sufficient income taxes to be able to take advantage of. As there will always be lower priced alternatives -- I like the looks of the new smaller Prius C hybrid; 53 MPG around town and only $19K, pretty good! people will make a choice that works best for them. When will pure BEV's come down in price to suit every pocket book; I don't know, but I do know I would strongly doubt that early adopters would buy many at these prices without any government incentives that encourage a switch to alternative fuels -- wouldn't you all agree (I know that Ghosn himself has mentioned this) !

As to the Chicago Auto Show, Nissan had two LEAF's in the booth (a blue and a silver) as well as showed off the quick charger and offered an outside drive experience, as we already own one and yesterday was REALLY cold we opted to not participate in the outside drive; wonder how many they had and how they held up? The Nissan booth (to me anyway) was pretty low key this year as with last. Other mfg's really went all out with much larger and more elaborate displays. We stopped by the smart booth and they only had a few cars but as we're owners, they offered us very colorful 'do rags' which is more than I can say for the other mfg.'s for their 'loyal' customers. We were there to check out the new EV's as well as new PHV's; saw the Focus EV in person for the first time, quite nice but still not available here ... the Ford C-Max Energi and Hybrid seem to be right-sized but as the battery pack for the Energi appears to take up a LOT of storage space (car was locked of course) will have to wait on both the price and driving one. We're still looking for a more efficient trip / utility vehicle to replace our VW Routan so checked out the new CR-V, RDX, CX-5, etc. -- the 3 year warranty on the Routan is up in August so we'll see what develops. Back to our LEAF, we took the train downtown so I tried pre-heating a few stops before ours on the return trip and that's simply one of the best things that I've ever experienced -- when we left it was only 8F and when we returned it was 16F so the car was parked for several hours and was toasty warm. It didn't use much battery capacity to pre-heat which was a nice surprise. I also noticed some of the stranger noises when it gets this cold but these pass as the temp rises so no worries. The Korean mfg - KIA and Hyundai have come a long way from the old days ... lot's of new offerings and style (perhaps a bit too much for everyone's taste but much different than the Japanese). Loved the new Lexus coupe concept and the Scion/Subaru coupe twins -- the Volt still feels and looks tight in the back but was in large numbers; the Mitsu 'i' looked very cheap, closing the door sounds like an oil drum, front tires look like those small space saver one's and it's still $30K (before incentives) -- anyone else plan to make it?

 

[YashuV]

I am going to the Auto Show today, with my sister and her husband. Did you see Ford Focus electic? How was it?

 

[JeffN]

From an efficiency/lowest cost point of view, I think Chevy set the max. speed for EV mode a bit high at 70 mph.

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean. The Volt has no maximum EV mode speed other than around 100 MPH which is the overall maximum speed. As long as you have usable charge left in the battery the gas engine will stay off under all speeds.

I was referring to the speed at which the Volt allows the engine to drive the 'other' motor.

Ah. This is a widely held misunderstanding due to poor media coverage. I think you are referring to the switch from "serial hybrid" mode to "serial/parallel hybrid" mode where the gas engine is mechanically connected to the planetary gears (and therefore connected to the wheels). This is something that happens after the usable battery charge has run down and so has nothing to do with "EV mode".

Furthermore, this commonly happens at speeds way before 70 mph. The Volt is normally in serial/parallel mode when the gas engine is running at speeds above 35-40 mph under light torque demand conditions such as constant speed or light acceleration on flat roads. The Volt calculates the road conditions and driver input and dynamically chooses whichever mode works best.

There is a somewhat related behavior when running off the battery (no gas engine) at speeds above 50-60 mph where the Volt will mix in the smaller motor/generator via the planetary gears in order to keep the RPM on the larger electric motor within it's ideal RPM efficiency zone.

So, in the first case the Volt is optimizing efficiency by switching between serial and serial/parallel mode when its gas engine is already running. In the second case, it is optimizing efficiency in EV mode by switching from using just one to using both of its electric motors. In no case does the Volt switch to using the gas engine because of higher speeds (70+ mph) or because of high torque demand while the battery still has usable grid charge left in it.

The PiP can be good for people with 10-12 mile total commutes or 20-24 if they can recharge at work. Otherwise, you are starting the gas engine even at speeds below 62 or with stronger acceleration. A Volt with a battery 3.5 times the size of the PiP battery (4.4 kWh vs 16 kWh) is only $2,500 more when comparing the base models for each car after the tax credit. That's about $215 per kWh of battery at the pack-level which is a good deal if you can put it to good use. PiP is also good if you drive a lot of very long trips where you can take advantage of the 48 mpg EPA highway estimate versus 40 mpg for the Volt.

And there's the problem - the Volt only has these benefits because of the way the incentives are structured, indeed, the incentives are what make the car remotely affordable and they won't be around forever, and depending on the results of the election may disappear quite soon. Compare the Volt @ $40K to the base PiP @ $32k, to the base Prius @ $24k. If PHEVs are going to be acceptable to mainstream consumers (with U.S. median family incomes of just under $50k), as opposed to early adopters with far more disposable income (Leaf owner MFI $140k; Volt owner MFI $170k), then initial price and lifetime cost matter, and the only way to get those down is to use the minimum battery that will do the job until gas price increases and battery price decreases change the equation.

The federal tax credit is a battery subsidy aimed at jump starting the economies of large scale manufacturing for EV-optimized battery cells. The current credits encourage larger packs up to at least 16 kWh so as to encourage multiple vehicle design strategies. Cars with smaller packs like the Prius plugin are naturally advantaged by having a lower up-front cost. Having credits that scale with pack size make 40 mile AER phevs like the Volt also become a reasonable choice for consumers with driving patterns that can leverage the increased gas-free range. Different cars for different folks. Phevs with 10 versus 40 miles of range may have different battery cell chemistries and constructions which are best suited to those design parameters. These batteries would come along eventually on their own but the credits aim to jump start the process and pull forward the availability of vehicle choices that will help lower our CO2 generation and diversify our transportation fuel sources. Once the manufacturing scales kick in and prices drop then the credits can be reduced or eliminated.

 

[redLEAF]

Saw this on another thread ...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7863&start=10

basically ... Chicago will be the 'winner' of the highest gas prices by Memorial Day of $4.95/gal

If this prediction turns out to be true should get some more interest than we did at ~ $4.50

 

[tech01]

You cannot base energy use decissions based on today's energy prices. Filled up my ice car first time this month at Sam's for 3.39gl. Thoughts of $4+ gl gas make me cringe. However having unlimited heat with no range limitations was a bonus. How ever having the glacial silver Leaf and being able to last through spikes in prices is great. Even if gas goes up and stays, having alternatives to fillups is refreshing. People in my general area have slowed way down so using eco mode is less onerous than it otherwise is. Has anyone gotten their Ill. rebate yet?

 

[ibLEAF]

Just went on the 350Green website. I just registered for the 350Green card for access to the Level 3 Chargers.
After registering I got the following message:

We are excited to provide the needed public infrastructure for the electric vehicle charging network. 350Green expects to start sending payment cards for Level 3/Fast charging station usage in Chicago Metro Area by February 14th, 2012.

Level 2 chargers nationwide will remain free until spring of 2012.

Sounds like they will be usable shortly. There is no information about pricing that I've found as of yet. If someone finds a posting with pricing I'd like to know.....

Here's my EN PLATE. Changed my username from mbf to ibLEAF.......Not too original of a license plate frame, but I still liked it....

 

[bwallach]

Just got an email from Nissan. Looks like there are some updates:

Email:
--------
Nissan continually improves product performance through ongoing enhancements. Based on the production date of your LEAF vehicle, Nissan would like to offer a complimentary update of the vehicle software, and also install a lower-apron bracket.

Nissan has added an additional driver-convenience alert designed to notify the driver if their door is opened while the vehicle is still in the "ON" or "READY" mode, and the shift selector is not in "P." The software update also includes various enhancements to, among other things, information displays, HVAC operation, and diagnostic systems.

The lower-apron bracket is a feature added for vehicles used in cold weather areas to prevent the possibility of snow and ice entering and accumulating in the motor compartment.

WHAT NISSAN WILL DO

To assure your continued satisfaction and confidence in your car, your EV-certified Nissan Dealer will update the software at no cost for parts and labor at a time and location that best meet your needs. Typically performed at your Nissan EV Dealer, the update can also be completed by an EV-certified technician at your home or place of business, provided there is a suitable and safe work area. Please discuss with your Nissan EV Dealer regarding timing and location.

In support of this software update, a new owner's manual will also be provided.

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

Contact your EV-certified Nissan Dealer at your earliest convenience in order to arrange your appointment:

 

[lukati]

Just got an email from Nissan.

+1. I hope I will be able to do this at a local dealer. Would be a pain to drive 60 miles to my original dealer.

 

[scottf200]

Just got an email from Nissan. Looks like there are some updates:

Email:
--------
<snip> the update can also be completed by an EV-certified technician at your home or place of business, provided there is a suitable and safe work area. Please discuss with your Nissan EV Dealer regarding timing and location.

That seems to be some impressive customer service to me.

 

[bwallach]

That seems to be some impressive customer service to me.

I'll be very surprised if the dealer sends someone out to my workplace.

 

[redLEAF]

+1 on that although if you insisted they might actually come to your work, etc.... also got the notice myself, wonder at what VIN this cuts off as the specific thread on notices like this mentions 'later' cars already having the 'snow shield' on them -- mine was an earlier VIN but came later due to where it was on the ship


EDIT: dealer has ordered the part for me, should be in soon so will do both at the same time

 

[bigtlb]

I got the notice as well, and they waited til the last minute to give me my VIN.

 

[bigtlb]

I called Libertyville Nissan, they had just heard of a LEAF campaign today. They need to get the parts in, then they will contact me to set up a time. They said the parts for this campaign are ordered per VIN, and only when you call in.

I think they almost ordered the new apron without the new manual.

When I reminded them that this software update says it will come with a new manual, the service representative asked if I could forward the email to him, so they could see what was mentioned.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Anyone attended/going to attend Leaf drive electric tour @ Chicago Auto Show:
Friday, February 10 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Saturday, February 11 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Sunday, February 12 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Moday, February 13 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Tuesday, February 14 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Wednesday, February 15 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Thursday, February 16 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Friday, February 17 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Saturday, February 18 : 11:00 am - 9:00pm
Sunday, February 19 : 11:00 am - 7:00pm

 

[GRA]

<snippagio owing to limits on embedded quotes>
I was referring to the speed at which the Volt allows the engine to drive the 'other' motor.

Ah. This is a widely held misunderstanding due to poor media coverage. I think you are referring to the switch from "serial hybrid" mode to "serial/parallel hybrid" mode where the gas engine is mechanically connected to the planetary gears (and therefore connected to the wheels). This is something that happens after the usable battery charge has run down and so has nothing to do with "EV mode".

Furthermore, this commonly happens at speeds way before 70 mph. The Volt is normally in serial/parallel mode when the gas engine is running at speeds above 35-40 mph under light torque demand conditions such as constant speed or light acceleration on flat roads. The Volt calculates the road conditions and driver input and dynamically chooses whichever mode works best.

There is a somewhat related behavior when running off the battery (no gas engine) at speeds above 50-60 mph where the Volt will mix in the smaller motor/generator via the planetary gears in order to keep the RPM on the larger electric motor within it's ideal RPM efficiency zone.

So, in the first case the Volt is optimizing efficiency by switching between serial and serial/parallel mode when its gas engine is already running. In the second case, it is optimizing efficiency in EV mode by switching from using just one to using both of its electric motors. In no case does the Volt switch to using the gas engine because of higher speeds (70+ mph) or because of high torque demand while the battery still has usable grid charge left in it.

Thanks for the extended explanation. My understanding (from an article in one of the car mags describing the car's drivetrain) was that at speeds of 70mph and higher, the engine is always driving the motor generator when the battery is depleted. As I stated previously, I believe this speed to be too high, and that the Accord's methodology will prove more generally acceptable and provide the greatest benefit at the lowest cost, without subsidies.

The PiP can be good for people with 10-12 mile total commutes or 20-24 if they can recharge at work. Otherwise, you are starting the gas engine even at speeds below 62 or with stronger acceleration. A Volt with a battery 3.5 times the size of the PiP battery (4.4 kWh vs 16 kWh) is only $2,500 more when comparing the base models for each car after the tax credit. That's about $215 per kWh of battery at the pack-level which is a good deal if you can put it to good use. PiP is also good if you drive a lot of very long trips where you can take advantage of the 48 mpg EPA highway estimate versus 40 mpg for the Volt.

And there's the problem - the Volt only has these benefits because of the way the incentives are structured, indeed, the incentives are what make the car remotely affordable and they won't be around forever, and depending on the results of the election may disappear quite soon. Compare the Volt @ $40K to the base PiP @ $32k, to the base Prius @ $24k. If PHEVs are going to be acceptable to mainstream consumers (with U.S. median family incomes of just under $50k), as opposed to early adopters with far more disposable income (Leaf owner MFI $140k; Volt owner MFI $170k), then initial price and lifetime cost matter, and the only way to get those down is to use the minimum battery that will do the job until gas price increases and battery price decreases change the equation.

The federal tax credit is a battery subsidy aimed at jump starting the economies of large scale manufacturing for EV-optimized battery cells. The current credits encourage larger packs up to at least 16 kWh so as to encourage multiple vehicle design strategies. Cars with smaller packs like the Prius plugin are naturally advantaged by having a lower up-front cost. Having credits that scale with pack size make 40 mile AER phevs like the Volt also become a reasonable choice for consumers with driving patterns that can leverage the increased gas-free range. Different cars for different folks. Phevs with 10 versus 40 miles of range may have different battery cell chemistries and constructions which are best suited to those design parameters. These batteries would come along eventually on their own but the credits aim to jump start the process and pull forward the availability of vehicle choices that will help lower our CO2 generation and diversify our transportation fuel sources. Once the manufacturing scales kick in and prices drop then the credits can be reduced or eliminated.

I know why the incentives are structured the way they are, and as I've stated in other threads and posts I'm happy for there to be a spectrum of AER ranges and methods out there. But I don't believe that price comparisons between different PHEVs or BEVs including the incentives are a valid way of comparing value for money, since the incentives are entirely artificial. Hell, if we could just get the federal and state governments to give each of us an incentive of $1.78 million (and we lived in states with no income tax and small license fees), we could all be driving Bugatti Veyrons for our grocery shopping for _only_ $20,000. Does this seem a logical way to compare cars to you? :roll:

 

[Bzzzzz]

Just went on the 350Green website. I just registered for the 350Green card for access to the Level 3 Chargers.
After registering I got the following message:

We are excited to provide the needed public infrastructure for the electric vehicle charging network. 350Green expects to start sending payment cards for Level 3/Fast charging station usage in Chicago Metro Area by February 14th, 2012.

Level 2 chargers nationwide will remain free until spring of 2012.

Sounds like they will be usable shortly. There is no information about pricing that I've found as of yet. If someone finds a posting with pricing I'd like to know.....

Here's my EN PLATE. Changed my username from mbf to ibLEAF.......Not too original of a license plate frame, but I still liked it....

Thanks for the update from 350Green. I've signed up for a card as well.

I love your license plate frame.