Chevrolet Spark EV

[TonyWilliams]

You sure have GM-itis... when they fart, you inhale deep. <snip>

Tony Williams
April 9, 2013 at 4:37 pm

First, the rate at the EVOasis / ChargePoint charger at San Juan Capistrano is EXACTLY the same rate as the NRG / EVgo negotiated deal with the state of California; $10 per hour off-peak, $15 per hour peak.
<snip>
Full disclosure, I’m CTO of EVOasis.
Tony

EVNow created a thread on this car and I add post related to news on it.

I would expect a CTO to act more professional. Do they know of your various comments here and unprofessional comments across the web to various people?

Ya, I saw your earlier attack posts. You seem enamored with the concept, like you've "got something over me", but i still think you're a common petty dirtbag. There's a few just like you here, and like them, you've been on my ignore list for quite some time.

 

[scottf200]

Via:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/general-motors-begins-first-us-production-of-electric-motors-for-2014-spark-ev.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chuck Russell, vehicle chief engineer for the Spark EV and the Chevy Volt, went one better, telling Edmunds: "We've said 'under 8 seconds' zero to 60 for the Spark EV — and it won't be 7.9."

Considering the Volt and LEAF are in the high 8s that seems pretty good.

 

[Nashco]

For those who don't understand why anybody could possibly want the Spark EV compare to others, here are my reasons:

Performance for the price (power vs weight vs cost)
DC fast charge
Available for purchase (soon...where I live, to boot)

This combination hasn't existed to date. I have a Leaf with fast charge, but it's way slower than a Spark EV or 500e. The 500e and Fit EV don't have DC fast charge, which limits practical utility and performance driving. The Fit EV and 500e can't be bought here, so I can't buy and modify as I wish. The Model S is way too expensive and heavy for the performance.

I don't expect this is a common group of requirements. However, those are the reasons I want the Spark EV, and I would hope that this group (or a select few, as it may be) was a little less militant and more open minded about people having different opinions and perspectives.

Bryce

 

[TonyWilliams]

For those who don't understand why anybody could possibly want the Spark EV compare to others, here are my reasons:

Performance for the price (power vs weight vs cost)
DC fast charge
Available for purchase (soon...where I live, to boot)

This combination hasn't existed to date. I have a Leaf with fast charge, but it's way slower than a Spark EV or 500e.

1. I suspect that GM will not price the Spark EV below the current $28,800 price of a 2013 LEAF-S. The price they keep hinting at ($25k after federal tax credit) suggests a $32,500 price for the Spark EV.

2. The DC fast charge will be a rude shock when you find no place to charge. There are currently DC fast chargers all over the world for the LEAF. No, the Spark will not charge faster than the 48kW that a LEAF currently accepts. Yes, I know what they hint at for their non-existent chargers. They also hint at some 400 ft/lbs of torque like it will be powerful. I absolutely PROMISE that I will race one the very first day that I can with my 4000 pound SUV with only 273 ft/lbs of Tesla power. Care to guess who will win?

3. The LEAF is available now, with 50,000 sold. Built in the USA.


Honestly, you just spelled out all the reasons NOT to buy one. If you had said any of the following, sure, I can see that:

"I have family / friends at GM, and I feel some loyalty to buy their Korean built car"

"I think this is a cute car"

"I only have a teeny, tiny parking spot, and this car is so small that it will fit"

"I'm a USA taxpayer, and I really want to buy from a company that I partially own"

"GM was the first to build an electric drive motor in the USA, because Nissan and Tesla are fur-n-ers"

 

[KeiJidosha]

...The Spark is a roller skate compared to the Leaf, why would anyone chose it?

Chevy Spark EV is a decent B-segment offering. It will fight US bias where only 5% consider B-segment size for purchase, but recent discounted pricing make EV cost-of-ownership attractive for commuters. As a LEAF competitor Spark EV has Thermal Battery Management, better performance numbers, and may have strong "A" pedal regen, similar to Volt. LEAF has C-segment size, better 100% charge range, and available 6.6kW on-board charger. Fiat 500e has yet better range and style, but lacks QC. Honda Fit EV has a polished offering, but won’t sell it, and is uncompetitive on lease price. All suffer to LEAF on Availability. Each have their charms, but sales numbers will divine how paying customers value those differences.

 

[KJD]

For those who don't understand why anybody could possibly want the Spark EV compare to others, here are my reasons:
Performance for the price (power vs weight vs cost)
DC fast charge
Available for purchase (soon...where I live, to boot)

Please add city and state to your profile.

 

[qwk]

I would expect a CTO to act more professional. Do they know of your various comments here and unprofessional comments across the web to various people?

Like it or not, Tony tells it like it is. That's as professional as it gets.

Being a fanboy is fine, but there is a thing called reality in which we all live in.

 

[qwk]

The Model S is way too expensive and heavy for the performance.

What exactly does this mean? The Model S has the best performance for any factory built EV on the planet. At the current time, if you want a performance EV, Tesla is it, and it's not going to change anytime soon. Sad but true.

If you want EV performance at a bargain price, a Rav4 EV is the ticket, and again, Tesla powered.

 

[GregH]

For those who don't understand why anybody could possibly want the Spark EV compare to others, here are my reasons:

Performance for the price (power vs weight vs cost)
DC fast charge
Available for purchase (soon...where I live, to boot)

Personally, I like smaller cars. If the SparkEV is as quick and nimble as it sounds then it could be a fun car to have... I wouldn't count on the DC Fast charge though. In all likelihood you'll be worse off than a Leaf in Southern California in 2011 :shock:

 

[Nashco]

For those who don't understand why anybody could possibly want the Spark EV compare to others, here are my reasons:

Performance for the price (power vs weight vs cost)
DC fast charge
Available for purchase (soon...where I live, to boot)

This combination hasn't existed to date. I have a Leaf with fast charge, but it's way slower than a Spark EV or 500e.

1. I suspect that GM will not price the Spark EV below the current $28,800 price of a 2013 LEAF-S. The price they keep hinting at ($25k after federal tax credit) suggests a $32,500 price for the Spark EV.

2. The DC fast charge will be a rude shock when you find no place to charge. There are currently DC fast chargers all over the world for the LEAF. No, the Spark will not charge faster than the 48kW that a LEAF currently accepts. Yes, I know what they hint at for their non-existent chargers. They also hint at some 400 ft/lbs of torque like it will be powerful. I absolutely PROMISE that I will race one the very first day that I can with my 4000 pound SUV with only 273 ft/lbs of Tesla power. Care to guess who will win?

3. The LEAF is available now, with 50,000 sold. Built in the USA.


Honestly, you just spelled out all the reasons NOT to buy one. If you had said any of the following, sure, I can see that:
...

Thank you for responding immediately to make it very clear that you are one of unnamed "few" that feel the need to ridicule people with different opinions.

1. Power vs. weight vs. cost. Note that cost is only part of this value story, power and weight are the other two. You reference the Leaf as a comparison the to the Spark EV. Note that the Leaf S is 3300 lbs, has 80 kW, and is priced at $29k. The Spark EV is expected to be 3000 lbs, 100 kW, and $35k. If you used a metric of lb$k/kW (smaller is better), that works out to 1200 for the Leaf vs 1050 for the Spark. This ignores upcharges for the fast charge port, as Chevy still hasn't announced if/what that will cost extra. For reference, a Model S 60 kWh (4700 lbs, 225 kW, $70k) ends up at 1460. A 500e (3000 lbs, 83 kW, $33k) lands at 1192. A RAV4 EV (4000 lbs, 115 kW, $50k) is 1740. Obviously there's more to "performance" than power and weight, but those are easy metrics to boil it down some. This also ignores rebates and other discounts, just assumes MSRP for a general comparison.

2. Just imagine the first chademo users in the US and how disappointed they were. Heck, just imagine how people in remote areas STILL feel...there just aren't that many chargers out there. I'm ok with that, and I expect to have some teething issues early on. It was a rude shock when I thought the chademo chargers around me existed...well, they showed up on a map, but here in the Portland area nearly every single one of them was broken for months when people actually started using them. This is part of a new technology and infrastructure.

I have confidence that having fast charge capability built into the vehicle side will make me happier in the long run. I am standard agnostic...I don't care where I get the power, just as long as I can get it FAST. I certainly don't like the chademo connector, but if that's what the Spark EV came with, I'd use it. Since it doesn't, I'll use/make/buy whatever adapters I have to in order to make it happen if I NEED chademo at some point. History shows that EV infrastructure standards have come and gone...and people adapt as required. The vehicle side being prepared for fast charging is MUCH more difficult than adapting the non-vehicle part.

3. Yes, but the Leaf doesn't have the performance I desire. You seem like an intelligent person, I hope you understand that people different than you have desires different than you.

Lighten up...

Bryce

 

[qwk]

1. Power vs. weight vs. cost. Note that cost is only part of this value story, power and weight are the other two. You reference the Leaf as a comparison the to the Spark EV. Note that the Leaf S is 3300 lbs, has 80 kW, and is priced at $29k. The Spark EV is expected to be 3000 lbs, 100 kW, and $35k. If you used a metric of lb$k/kW (smaller is better), that works out to 1200 for the Leaf vs 1050 for the Spark. This ignores upcharges for the fast charge port, as Chevy still hasn't announced if/what that will cost extra. For reference, a Model S 60 kWh (4700 lbs, 225 kW, $70k) ends up at 1460. A 500e (3000 lbs, 83 kW, $33k) lands at 1192. A RAV4 EV (4000 lbs, 115 kW, $50k) is 1740. Obviously there's more to "performance" than power and weight, but those are easy metrics to boil it down some. This also ignores rebates and other discounts, just assumes MSRP for a general comparison.

You seem to lack a basic understanding of EV vehicles. The power you want can only be had if one uses a good sized battery. Since the battery adds the most weight, a light EV vehicle will not be performance oriented. There are of course exceptions, which in turn equal large amounts of money. Like the old saying goes "you get what you pay for". You cannot have performance without paying for it.

I have confidence that having fast charge capability built into the vehicle side will make me happier in the long run. I am standard agnostic...I don't care where I get the power, just as long as I can get it FAST. I certainly don't like the chademo connector, but if that's what the Spark EV came with, I'd use it. Since it doesn't, I'll use/make/buy whatever adapters I have to in order to make it happen if I NEED chademo at some point.

Good luck with that adapter, especially if you are so concerned with costs.

 

[Nashco]

You seem to lack a basic understanding of EV vehicles. The power you want can only be had if one uses a good sized battery. Since the battery adds the most weight, a light EV vehicle will not be performance oriented. There are of course exceptions, which in turn equal large amounts of money. Like the old saying goes "you get what you pay for". You cannot have performance without paying for it.

Actually, I have a very good understanding of EVs. Again, why are people in this thread so quick to bash others?!?

Your logic doesn't compute, please help me understand what you mean. Why does a vehicle need to be heavier (due to battery weight...?) to be performance oriented? Are you assuming that energy is needed for performance? Note that I didn't say anything about energy. Increased energy only serves to allow a longer duty cycle, but not increased power.

Bryce

 

[scottf200]

... but there is a thing called reality in which we all live in.

Yes, we all recall your definition of reality from early post in this thread:

BTW, right now there is only one company that is serious about EV's, and has done more for the cause than all other manufacturers combined. They make cars that people want to drive, not have to drive, that also happen to be electric.

So according to you investing $5B is not "serious". LOL.

So designing a butt ugly commuter car that has no thermal battery management, was advertised as 100 mile range but got 70, when hot climate battery issues crop up choosing the "hush up some owners/recalibrating GOM meter" method to solve the problem.

If that is your definition of serious, then they must be serious.

I call it dipping one toe in. In order to be serious, one has to jump in with both feet.

*EV competition is good for all envolved as it raises customer awareness/understanding and then hopefully acceptance. So the Spark EV is good. And if it is a reasonably fast sub 8 second car then it avoids the 'golf cart' comments/attitudes.

 

[qwk]

You seem to lack a basic understanding of EV vehicles. The power you want can only be had if one uses a good sized battery. Since the battery adds the most weight, a light EV vehicle will not be performance oriented. There are of course exceptions, which in turn equal large amounts of money. Like the old saying goes "you get what you pay for". You cannot have performance without paying for it.

Actually, I have a very good understanding of EVs. Again, why are people in this thread so quick to bash others?!?

Your logic doesn't compute, please help me understand what you mean. Why does a vehicle need to be heavier (due to battery weight...?) to be performance oriented? Are you assuming that energy is needed for performance? Note that I didn't say anything about energy. Increased energy only serves to allow a longer duty cycle, but not increased power.

Bryce

Not really bashing, just pointing out that EV's aren't like ICE cars. You cannot just stuff a more powerfull motor in the car and get more power. The battery dictates the power. Basic EV fundementals.

The vehicle doesn't have to be heavier, but the cells that make up a small pack, with a high power density, cost quite a bit of money. If an automaker would produce such a car, it would be expensive, and most likely not sell because of the limited range from the small pack. It could be relatively light, which equals better performance, but not range.

A car with a lower power density pack, using cheaper cells can also have performance, but the pack needs to be bigger(Tesla), which means more weight and range, and most likely cost. The cells are cheaper, but there is more of them, therefore it costs close to the same as the example of the light car with the high power density cells above.

 

[qwk]

@scottf200

How is the above post not reality? I stand by that remark. On this planet, it costs the same to design and produce a good looking car, as it does an ugly one. Is this that hard for people to comprehend? :mrgreen:

A good looking girl is more likely to get a date than an ugly one. Same with car sales.

I already posted that I drove the leaf many times, along with the Volt, and the Leaf drives much better, and is a much better car. I'm not going to make stuff up just because of being brand loyal(brand loyalty is beyond stupid). The Volt I drove was pathetic for a 2012 Model vehicle. I would pay full sticker for a Leaf, before I would take a free Volt. No joke.

 

[evnow]

How is the above post not reality? I stand by that remark. On this planet, it costs the same to design and produce a good looking car, as it does an ugly one. Is this that hard for people to comprehend? :mrgreen:

"good looking" is subjective. Do you really not comprehend that ?

You must really think you have "the" best taste and you are the final arbiter of how everyone must think about the looks of a car.

I've heard strangers comment more about how "cute" Leaf looks, than about it being an EV.

 

[Nashco]

Not really bashing, just pointing out that EV's aren't like ICE cars. You cannot just stuff a more powerfull motor in the car and get more power. The battery dictates the power. Basic EV fundementals.

The vehicle doesn't have to be heavier, but the cells that make up a small pack, with a high power density, cost quite a bit of money. If an automaker would produce such a car, it would be expensive, and most likely not sell because of the limited range from the small pack. It could be relatively light, which equals better performance, but not range.

A car with a lower power density pack, using cheaper cells can also have performance, but the pack needs to be bigger(Tesla), which means more weight and range, and most likely cost. The cells are cheaper, but there is more of them, therefore it costs close to the same as the example of the light car with the high power density cells above.

As I said, I understand electric (and ICE) vehicles quite well. The battery does NOT dictate the power, the whole system has to work together, just like on an ICE vehicle. On an ICE vehicle, you can't just stuff a more powerful engine in...there's axles, clutches, transmissions, fuel system, exhaust system, intake system, cooling system, etc. that all are sized for the engine power. The same goes for an EV.

If you want to get technical about EVs, the power inverter, cables, connectors, fuses, contactors, cooling system, heating system, transmission, axles, etc. all have to be sized as part of a system as well as the battery. Are you saying that GM has designed a motor that is more powerful than the system is capable of supporting? If so, do you have data to support that? I don't think GM would have spent money making a motor capable of 100 kW and then making the rest of the system undersized, but I'm listening if you know something that I don't.

Bryce

 

[qwk]

Not really bashing, just pointing out that EV's aren't like ICE cars. You cannot just stuff a more powerfull motor in the car and get more power. The battery dictates the power. Basic EV fundementals.

The vehicle doesn't have to be heavier, but the cells that make up a small pack, with a high power density, cost quite a bit of money. If an automaker would produce such a car, it would be expensive, and most likely not sell because of the limited range from the small pack. It could be relatively light, which equals better performance, but not range.

A car with a lower power density pack, using cheaper cells can also have performance, but the pack needs to be bigger(Tesla), which means more weight and range, and most likely cost. The cells are cheaper, but there is more of them, therefore it costs close to the same as the example of the light car with the high power density cells above.

As I said, I understand electric (and ICE) vehicles quite well. The battery does NOT dictate the power, the whole system has to work together, just like on an ICE vehicle. On an ICE vehicle, you can't just stuff a more powerful engine in...there's axles, clutches, transmissions, fuel system, exhaust system, intake system, cooling system, etc. that all are sized for the engine power. The same goes for an EV.

If you want to get technical about EVs, the power inverter, cables, connectors, fuses, contactors, cooling system, heating system, transmission, axles, etc. all have to be sized as part of a system as well as the battery. Are you saying that GM has designed a motor that is more powerful than the system is capable of supporting? If so, do you have data to support that? I don't think GM would have spent money making a motor capable of 100 kW and then making the rest of the system undersized, but I'm listening if you know something that I don't.

Bryce

The above has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. You are really grasping.

ICE components are usually overbuilt, and getting more power is trivial. Not so with a battery car. Battery is everything. You definately need to do some basic research. Even though GM advertises more power, the Spark will only be a tiny bit more powerfull than the Leaf. Probably not enough to notice. It's all deceptive marketing, which you seem to fall easy for.

 

[qwk]

How is the above post not reality? I stand by that remark. On this planet, it costs the same to design and produce a good looking car, as it does an ugly one. Is this that hard for people to comprehend? :mrgreen:

"good looking" is subjective. Do you really not comprehend that ?

You must really think you have "the" best taste and you are the final arbiter of how everyone must think about the looks of a car.

I've heard strangers comment more about how "cute" Leaf looks, than about it being an EV.

Come on. When the majority of people think it's ugly, well.....

There will always be someone who likes ugly(or is just too cheap), that's why the Pontiac Aztec sold at least some units, but probably at a steep discount.

 

[GregH]

There will always be someone who likes ugly(or is just too cheap), that's why the Pontiac Aztec sold at least some units, but probably at a steep discount.

Ha! The Aztec worked great for Walter White in Breaking Bad.. (puke green no less!)

I really liked my EV1 but one time a passerby on the sidewalk actually said "That's the ugliest car I've ever seen". To each his own I guess.