DNAinaGoodWay
Well-known member
Low demand = better pricing for us! Thanks ICE drivers!
dgpcolorado said:Tesla does not display battery temperature directly but it does clearly display regen and power limits, in kW, when the battery is cold (or full, in the case of regen), which is the important thing to a driver. As with other EVs, charging right before driving in cold weather helps warm the battery and increase the regen and power available. Maximum regen is 60 kW and maximum power in my S60 — the slowest Tesla made — is 240 kW.
GetOffYourGas said:DaveinOlyWA said:As far as charging speed? If your only experience is with a 24 kwh LEAF, you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump. Trust me, there is a lot more there!
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/03/road-trip-adventures-of-9-tb-journey.html
Usability is all relative. And it's about the combination of range and charging speed.
Check out Syracuse NY on Plugshare. There is all of 1 CHAdeMO within 100 miles of me, in Ithaca. A city I visit maybe once or twice a year? Otherwise, the range of a 30kWh Leaf would not cover a significantly larger number of my annual miles than a 24kWh Leaf.
But there is a cluster of CCS/CHAdeMO chargers in Albany, about 150 miles away. A Bolt would easily get there. The return would be trickier since I'd have to charge up past the taper point, but it's doable. It's just not possible in a 30kWh Leaf. And Albany is a mid-point for most of the places that I travel. Every direction other than west has a DCQC within reasonable distance. So yeah, going out is easy. Returning home has one tricky leg - the last one. And a 30kWh Leaf is just as useless as a 24kWh Leaf on those trips.
Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.lorenfb said:Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.dgpcolorado said:Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.lorenfb said:Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
The problem with that approach, from my perspective, is that those max, average, and minimum ranges aren't really meaningful. The Tesla trip plot includes terrain changes and gives real time updates to the projection. The RM serves as a finely divided fuel gauge. The trip energy use display serves to give a measure of actual energy use during the conditions since the last stop, last charge or last 5, 15, 30 miles (all of those are available).GRA said:I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.
I agree that the RM trip plot is easier to use, but I think the max./avg./min. method forces people to think more and pay attention to the car's performance under varying real world conditions, as well as being aware of how those conditions will change in the near future (big climbs/descents etc.)instead of just reacting. But then I also prefer to drive a stick shift because of its greater driver engagement, and I realize I'm an outlier in the U.S. Certainly, for the average person the RM method with terrain plot is likely to be more popular. I guess I'm generally resistant to depending on a fuel gauge or any other single instrument and not using my brain (note that my current car lacks a GOM, GPS or connectivity, but it does have weather band radio and is stocked with maps). Fortunately, with a variety of methods now available to people, they can choose whichever suits them best.dgpcolorado said:The problem with that approach, from my perspective, is that those max, average, and minimum ranges aren't really meaningful. The Tesla trip plot includes terrain changes and gives real time updates to the projection. The RM serves as a finely divided fuel gauge. The trip energy use display serves to give a measure of actual energy use during the conditions since the last stop, last charge or last 5, 15, 30 miles (all of those are available).GRA said:I also like GM's method of showing max., average and minimum ranges simultaneously. Depending on how conservative you are, pick one, subtract your reserve from it (or just use average or max. and let average or minimum be your reserve) and go.
For local driving, which is the majority of use of most cars, none of this matters in the slightest in a 200 mile range EV: you start out with a 90% charge, drive however you want, plug-in when you get home, and repeat the next day. [Yes I know that there are outliers who drive more than a hundred miles per day who can be limited in range, especially in cold or snowy weather. That 1% strikes me as irrelevant; they can go with other options.] Paying close attention to the energy profile of a 200 mile range EV is for road trips. The Bolt simply isn't a road trip car, given the current and near future DCFC infrastructure.
In my view, it doesn't really matter very much how precisely the Bolt displays charge levels. That sort of stuff is for short range EVs, such as the LEAF, where range is sometimes limiting even in local driving. My sense is that the concern about such things here at MNL is a carryover from our collective short-range-LEAF experience. I have been trying to point out that once one gets to 200 miles of range it simply doesn't matter much, save for actual road trips. IME, it appears that I am a "minority of one" in this viewpoint!
[url] http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-test-drive-concludes-its-an-ev-1-turned-up-to-11/[/url]Chevrolet Bolt Test Drive Concludes It’s An EV-1 Turned Up To 11
DaveinOlyWA said:GetOffYourGas said:DaveinOlyWA said:As far as charging speed? If your only experience is with a 24 kwh LEAF, you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump. Trust me, there is a lot more there!
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/03/road-trip-adventures-of-9-tb-journey.html
Usability is all relative. And it's about the combination of range and charging speed.
Check out Syracuse NY on Plugshare. There is all of 1 CHAdeMO within 100 miles of me, in Ithaca. A city I visit maybe once or twice a year? Otherwise, the range of a 30kWh Leaf would not cover a significantly larger number of my annual miles than a 24kWh Leaf.
But there is a cluster of CCS/CHAdeMO chargers in Albany, about 150 miles away. A Bolt would easily get there. The return would be trickier since I'd have to charge up past the taper point, but it's doable. It's just not possible in a 30kWh Leaf. And Albany is a mid-point for most of the places that I travel. Every direction other than west has a DCQC within reasonable distance. So yeah, going out is easy. Returning home has one tricky leg - the last one. And a 30kWh Leaf is just as useless as a 24kWh Leaf on those trips.
Obviously its relative and my statement hardly implies that my LEAF has solved all my problems so great comparison of nothing from nothing. Ok, time for someone from South Dakota to chime in!
Hyundai Ioniq looks to eliminate the 12V Lead Acid battery with a "Consolidated" battery pack (at 02:00). Bolt still has a separate battery.DanDietrich said:I can't wait to talk to a Bolt owner to see if their car has the same setup for 12 volt stuff. I hate the whole idea of the 12 volt battery in the leaf, and if Chevy avoided it that is one mark in the win column, as far as I am concerned.
dgpcolorado said:Tesla's rated miles (RM) serve as a proxy for usable capacity and are used as such by Tesla drivers. It is also a more user-friendly metric than kWh or Ah. Something I can say with confidence, having used it to stretch the range of my car on a recent road trip by comparing the RM to actual miles left and keeping an eye on how the difference varied with terrain and speed; it is straightforward and intuitive in a way that kWh and Ah would not be.lorenfb said:Then not very useful, not having remaining Ahrs/kWhrs, i.e. only SOC and range are not helpful when you have a "shrinking gas tank". Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet. Even though future BEVs will have much less of an issue with range anxiety, it's still very
helpful to know the actual remaining (& @ 100% SOC) battery capacity either in Ahrs or energy in kWhrs
In my car one RM is 300 Wh/mile so if my accumulated trip energy usage has been 330 Wh/mile, something that Tesla displays on the dash, I know that I need 1.1 x as many RM left as actual distance left. If I fall short of that number I can slow down and reduce my energy usage. If the number of RM left is greater than 1.1 x actual distance left to go I can speed up, if I wish. In actual usage one can just compare the difference between RM left and actual miles left. If that number is shrinking one might be using energy too quickly to make the destination, depending on the size of the difference. The trip plot provides an even easier way to measure progress in fuel usage versus distance since it displays current SOC, projected battery SOC at the destination, compensates for terrain, and does the calculations automatically.
Where temperature, HVAC use, and the like come into play is in actual energy usage for the trip, something that is displayed on the dash in Wh/mile. Most of the time leaving on a trip leg with a sufficient buffer makes watching the numbers unnecessary. If I leave with 170 RM to make a 90 mile trip leg I certainly don't have to pay attention to energy usage under most driving conditions. It also is irrelevant for local driving since the range of the car greatly exceeds my local driving needs (70 mile grocery shopping trips with large elevation change, for example). But the energy in the battery information is there if needed.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21507lorenfb said:Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet.
cwerdna said:http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21507lorenfb said:Hopefully, Jim (LeafSpy) will continue his efforts in providing a "TeslaSpy", if he hasn't
provided one yet.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1380958/
lorenfb said:...
With my monitoring of my Leaf over the last 3.5 yrs (47K miles), I can very reliably estimate my range
as a worse case estimate of about 2.2 miles/Ahr. Yes, my estimate is based on averages just like the Leaf's
GOM (poor), but at least I can see in real time how the actual capacity is changing and NOT relying on
historical longer term estimates. That's one of the reasons many of us utilize LeafSpy and/or LeafDD.
Furthermore, having access to the actual battery Ahrs, allows my determining how low the battery
will be discharged during a current trip before a re-charge.
I used a Leaf DD as well but that is way too complex for most people. It was essential for me because I was stretching the range of my LEAF every time I went grocery shopping, especially in winter when the battery had degraded. How many ordinary people who don't hang out at MNL really understand Ah or kWh? Or care?lorenfb said:I just got a headache. It's overly complex and still relies on historical averages. Even with my ICEVs,
I discount the range estimate and utilize the gas gauge. Using either Ahrs or kWhrs is analogous
to having a gas gauge which essentially is a true measure of capacity. Besides the typical consumer's
unfamiliarity understanding of those terms, most BEV OEMs don't care to have the consumer become
aware of battery degradation. Unfortunately, most all future BEVs won't ever provide a true measure
of remaining battery capacity.
With my monitoring of my Leaf over the last 3.5 yrs (47K miles), I can very reliably estimate my range
as a worse case estimate of about 2.2 miles/Ahr. Yes, my estimate is based on averages just like the Leaf's
GOM (poor), but at least I can see in real time how the actual capacity is changing and NOT relying on
historical longer term estimates. That's one of the reasons many of us utilize LeafSpy and/or LeafDD.
Furthermore, having access to the actual battery Ahrs, allows my determining how low the battery
will be discharged during a current trip before a re-charge.
dgpcolorado said:it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.
lorenfb said:dgpcolorado said:it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.
Great, another GOM based on someone else's driving conditions!
No, the "rated miles" display is not what I'd call a GOM ("guess-o-meter"), because it doesn't attempt to guess how much energy your particular driving conditions are going to require.lorenfb said:Great, another GOM based on someone else's driving conditions!dgpcolorado said:it is just a measure of energy in the battery based on the EPA efficiency of the car, a fixed number. There are many other tools available to help with measuring driving conditions and actual range but RM is just an energy gauge.
http://insideevs.com/bjorn-nyland-takes-chevrolet-bolt-292-miles-single-charge-video/Bjørn Nyland Takes Chevrolet Bolt 292 Miles On A Single Charge – Video
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