Charging 220 V at RV Parks?

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, I like to make a few corrections to this government response.

Maybe a good question is when the DOE money and EVproject end in April 2013, and those DC chargers are not installed, then what?

 

[Ingineer]

He also is wrong about QC's requiring 480v. As I pointed out a few posts back, the very first CHAdeMO ever installed in the US is hooked to 208v 3-Phase 200a service.

For example, the DC Fast Chargers (DCFCs) with which I'm familiar require a 480V, 3-phase AC input (not the 240V AC power that you mention is already available at the RV parks.

-Phil

 

[Ingineer]

I wrote him a letter:

Hi David,

An acquaintance of mine forwarded me your response about his
suggestion for adding EV fast-charging at RV parks. First off, I'd
like to thank you for responding. I agree with your points, but I'd
like to point out that there is no specific technical requirement for
480v or even 3-Phase on CHAdeMO type DC fast charging systems. (though
this could vary across different units) The one requirement that
cannot be avoided is the total power required, Most are rated at 50kW,
and thus require that service be adequate to handle that.

The very first CHAdeMO unit installed in the US (to my knowledge) is
located in Vacaville, CA at the Davis Street Park-and-Ride. It's a
unit made by Tepco imported from Japan. Sadly, although this unit is
fully functional, it's lack of a UL listing is preventing it's use by
the general public, and has been this way pretty much since it was
installed. (There is some fear of liability issues apparently) In
any event, this unit is made for the Japanese power system and so it
is designed for 200v 3-phase. It's presently hooked up to 208v
3-phase on a 200A circuit, and it works properly. In fact, I
personally have charged my Leaf from it on several occasions. This
model can apparently also be set up to run off of single phase
service, obviously requiring substantially higher amperage.

The other thing not commonly understood is that the CHAdeMO system can
be made to operate at lower power levels. For instance, you could
install a standard 50kW unit somewhere that only has 20kW available
(or wants to avoid demand charges), and the charger could be limited
to only provide up to 20kW.

I have designed an add-on module that can be installed in any existing
CHAdeMO QC to limit the power output to a user desired level, and in
addition, it could be connected such that the power limit would be
dynamically adjusted in response to local electrical system demands,
smart grid commands, etc. This is intended to allow installation of a
CHAdeMO QC where it would otherwise be impossible due to power
limitations.

Obviously the down side is that cars charging on these Level 3
chargers would suffer longer recharge times than if the power was not
limited. Still, this is a significant improvement over the J1772
Level 2 charge for vehicles such as the Leaf and the iMiEV. Both
vehicles will gain about a highway mile (more in the city) for each
minute charging at a 20kW reduced CHAdeMO station, which is about a
600% improvement!

This means that a suitably reduced CHAdeMO charger, such as
Nissan/Sumitomo's upcoming >$8k solution could even be installed on a
residential power system, or that of a small business. It would only
require about 85-90 amps single phase 240v, which a common 200A
residential electrical system could likely handle.

Please feel free to share this information where it may be of benefit
to the improvement of our EV charging infrastructure and it's
planning.

Thanks!

-Phil

 

[Levenkay]

I haven't looked into the price of these things at all, but one or two of these flywheel energy storage units could smooth out the power demands of a QuickCharge station nicely. Assuming that there isn't an incessant parade of LEAFs queued up at the RV park, the whole affair might not look like much more than a simple L2 charger (albeit one that operated pretty constantly). I imagine that the "25" in the name of Beacon's module refers to KWH storage, so one of the units, fully spun up, would probably do for a single station.

 

[Ingineer]

I haven't looked into the price of these things at all, but one or two of these flywheel energy storage units could smooth out the power demands of a QuickCharge station nicely. Assuming that there isn't an incessant parade of LEAFs queued up at the RV park, the whole affair might not look like much more than a simple L2 charger (albeit one that operated pretty constantly). I imagine that the "25" in the name of Beacon's module refers to KWH storage, so one of the units, fully spun up, would probably do for a single station.

Well, it could work, but you would have to have an enforced "gap" after each charge, and I can bet that thing probably cost more than 10 brand-new replacement Leaf packs from the dealer parts counter. Ideally, you'd put a small stack of old "used up" Leaf packs there, and they'd probably still eke out 10kWh each, so you'd be able to do it a lot cheaper!

I'm sure Tony will be happy to donate a few over the next couple of years. Looks like he'll have 100k miles on his current one before the year is up! =)

-Phil

 

[planet4ever]

the whole affair might not look like much more than a simple L2 charger

Umm ... not exactly. Yes, it is 25 kWh, but it also weighs 2,500 pounds! There is no way that will look like an L2 charging station, more like a water storage tank. And that is 2,500 pounds of carbon-fiber composite, operating in a near vacuum with magnetic bearings, so I shudder to think what the price must be.

Ray

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i have to say getting solar/wind to charge a bank of batteries might not be such a bad idea. we have the one in Central WA that generates enough Solar to power an EV 700,000 miles a year what is the conversion loss to get it to 480 volts?

 

[Ingineer]

The interesting thing is, if you use a bunch of old Leaf packs as your storage for a Leaf QC, the electronics needed are really simple. Just basically a SEPIC converter between the battery bank and the CHAdeMO cable. If you can charge the bank slowly from the grid, then way less expensive (high-power) electronics are needed!

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

The interesting thing is, if you use a bunch of old Leaf packs as your storage for a Leaf QC, the electronics needed are really simple. Just basically a SEPIC converter between the battery bank and the CHAdeMO cable. If you can charge the bank slowly from the grid, then way less expensive (high-power) electronics are needed!

-Phil

That very product (DC Quick Charger with batteries) is already available and almost operational here in San Diego.

At our meeting today, Randy (SDG&E employee) told us how his company has bought one ($90k) and installed it. It can charge itself at 20kW, and dump the full 48kW into your LEAF.

But, unfortunately, it won't be your LEAF, because like the DC charger in Vacaville operated by PG&E, it won't be available to the public, or even SDG&E employees.

 

[Ingineer]

That very product (DC Quick Charger with batteries) is already available and almost operational here in San Diego.

At our meeting today, Randy (SDG&E employee) told us how his company has bought one ($90k) and installed it. It can charge itself at 20kW, and dump the full 48kW into your LEAF.

But, unfortunately, it won't be your LEAF, because like the DC charger in Vacaville operated by PG&E, it won't be available to the public, or even SDG&E employees.

Nice! Expensive though, and they obviously didn't use your old Leaf pack, did they! =)

-Phil

 

[Levenkay]

the whole affair might not look like much more than a simple L2 charger

Umm ... not exactly. Yes, it is 25 kWh, but it also weighs 2,500 pounds! There is no way that will look like an L2 charging station, more like a water storage tank. And that is 2,500 pounds of carbon-fiber composite, operating in a near vacuum with magnetic bearings, so I shudder to think what the price must be.

Ray

I meant, "look like, from the perspective of the electric utility". And I imagine the units have to be sunk into the ground, resting on some sort of roller table that will let the earth jostle around them a bit if there's an earthquake, so I'm aware that the installations would be a little bulky.. But the huge numbers of charge/discharge cycles without capacity degradation would be attractive in this application.

 

[electricfuture]

I have designed an add-on module that can be installed in any existing
CHAdeMO QC to limit the power output to a user desired level, and in
addition, it could be connected such that the power limit would be
dynamically adjusted in response to local electrical system demands,
smart grid commands, etc. This is intended to allow installation of a
CHAdeMO QC where it would otherwise be impossible due to power
limitations.

This means that a suitably reduced CHAdeMO charger, such as
Nissan/Sumitomo's upcoming >$8k solution could even be installed on a
residential power system, or that of a small business. It would only
require about 85-90 amps single phase 240v, which a common 200A
residential electrical system could likely handle.

Thanks Phil, So now a single phase 240V QC with a 20KW programmable power consumption restrictor on an $8000 unit would make this practical in RV parks across the country.

Yes, it will take longer to charge the batteries, however, people I have conversed with say that the QC charges about 70-80% in the first 15-20 minutes and then dramatically slows. So your device would probably charge 60% or possibly more in 30 minutes. Although not practical for long distance multiple charging trips, fast "topping off" would probably be sufficient for intercity travel of cities within a 100 mile radius, i.e. San Diego-L.A.; Baltimore-Philadelphia; New York-Boston as a full charge may not be required in most instances and would kick start range extension for these locations.
I am sure usage would be high and encourage the further development of a nationwide system.

The best part, once again, single phase 240 V 50A circuits are already available at the RV parks – so you are only looking for a federally subsidized charger cost, a small upgrade to the existing park and a permit for public charging. . Everything else is already there. This is why I think the RV park idea is the most practical and low cost way to get the “Electric highway” started.

I am going to contact some more RV parks!

 

[Ingineer]

So now a single phase 240V QC with a 20KW programmable power consumption restrictor on an $8000 unit would make this practical in RV parks across the country.

Now we just need them to actually start selling the thing. As soon as they do, I can offer a kit to upgrade them. (or downgrade as the case may be! =)

The best part, once again, single phase 240 V 50A circuits are already available at the RV parks

For a 20kW unit, we'd need more than that, and it may put a system over it's designed load so it's not always as turn-key as it might sound. I agree, that to offer even a handful of 50A parking spaces, they probably have at least 400A 3-Phase 240v service, (likely 480v) which is enough to probably do the job as long as it's not full of RV's running their A/C's in the desert.

-Phil

 

[N952JL]

Another place I feel would be very practical, would be rest stops. It is already a government owned site, most of them around here are patroled so they are secured. It should not be that hard to get the power needed for two spaces, and you could install grid tie in solar PV to feed the grid during high demand time to negate any possible demand charges.

 

[electricfuture]

I looked art Rest Stops off the Interstate - but this would also take an act of Congress. Maybe if there is a Democratic congress next year this might actually get passed!

Phil's control adapter could get the job done in short order for RV parks. This is really starting to move!

Envia has already developed the next generation Li-ion battery. http://enviasystems.com/announcement/

This technology will extend the range of the Leaf to 300 miles and will probably be available by the time I am ready to change out my battery. Note that the cost will be ½ current prices a big development motivator and they have a develpoment plant in China.

I think the big advantage here is that these batteries could be “trickle charged” single phase 240V at QC stations in RV parks ready for fast DC charging thereby bypassing the demand charge. One set would fully recharge 3 Leafs before depleting – more if the Leafs are just topping off 60-80% which would usually be the case.

BEWARE! GM has bought into this company - .

 

[z0ner]

01/26/2011
...In a separate agreement, GM has secured the right to use Envia’s advanced cathode material for future GM electrically driven vehicles.

That was the press release announcing GM's investment of $17 million. Note 1) it was a year ago, and 2) there is no specific mention of exclusivity (thankfully).

 

[TomT]

A few years back we were looking at a very different project and investigated the power availability at rest stops. We found that, in general, it is of fairly low capacity and that there is not much headroom...

I looked art Rest Stops off the Interstate - but this would also take an act of Congress.

 

[electricfuture]

[quotefew years back we were looking at a very different project and investigated the power availability at rest stops. We found that, in general, it is of fairly low capacity and that there is not much headroom...][/quote]

Back to the RV park idea!

 

[hgoudey]

They charge $0.15 per KWH and cannot charge more by law

Can RV parks legally charge by the kWh at all? I'm under the impression that CA law (and other states to boot) does not allow resale of electricity. After the utility sells it to the first customer (RV park) it can not be resold on a kWh basis. Isn't this why public EVSEs charge by the hour not the kWh? You are paying for the use of the space and equipment, not how much energy is consumed. A $0.50/hour public EVSE is about $0.15/kWh charging a Leaf and only $0.08/kWh if you can draw at 6kW.

Howdy Goudey

 

[garygid]

I believe the CPUC issued a ruling that one
who resells e-fuel is not regulated as a PU.