CES 2014: Toyota fuel cell car that can also power a home.

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pkulak said:
Unless platinum has become super cheap, or they figured out a way to make a fuel cell from a different catalyst, this car is going to cost a fortune. Probably more than a Tesla with about the same range, such that no one in their right mind would every buy one. And if you do buy one, you're just increasing platinum scarcity even more.

Can you elaborate? I am not very familiar with this. Why would you need platinum to store liquid hydrogen as part of the cell?

What I was reading is using carbon fiber constructs for the fuel cell for strength and impact resistance. And release doesn't seem as big an issue as it should turn to gas and escape in most cases.
 
epirali said:
Also I think quick refueling alternative like hydrogen may fit into the existing gas station model much easier than the 30 minutes to recharge model.
The question was simple - if you plan to get the car as soon as it is available where are you going to fuel it. Do you have H2 fueling stations (that cost Millions) near by ? Are there plans to build one ? Who is funding them ?
 
Hydrogen home refueling is far more complex and costly than CNG home refueling, and takes longer... We won't even discuss the inherent dangers...

Flashman said:
Yes indeed! Agreed. (disagree with the shipping container for equipment bit) but essentially, you are otherwise spot on.
I would use hydrogen station infrastructure (once it's built of course - non existent today) for daily driving stuff and filling up fast...
But for at home, generating and filling up the tank overnight is really no different than I do now via Charging the LEAF.
 
epirali said:
Again I am a little puzzled...
With the caveat that I'm an old guy who has been reading about hydrogen fuel cells being the coming thing for decades, the problem is physics and chemistry. Hydrogen is the least dense element and as a fuel source it needs to be compressed enormously, at great energy cost, to be useful as a fuel. Many years ago the solution was supposed to be metal hydrides, which would allow hydrogen to be stored safely in a fairly dense manner. Don't hear about that anymore. Why?

As anyone who has played with hydrogen balloons soon learns, H2 is the smallest molecule of all and is so tiny that it leaks out of most containers readily unless they are very, very robust. Also hydrogen bottles become brittle with age, because hydrogen is quite reactive, and need to be tested, certified, and replaced regularly. Most hydrogen in the industry is currently made from natural gas, meaning it essentially a fossil fuel. So the goal is to make it from water, perhaps with renewable energy. Hydrogen + oxygen is a very exothermic reaction (something like 50 kcal/mol IIRC), which is why it makes such a good rocket fuel. But that also means that it takes a lot of energy to break it down from water. Why not just skip all that, plus energy intensive compression, and just power an EV directly with the electricity?

Fuel cells have been quite expensive to produce and have been quite delicate in use. Getting one to be inexpensive to manufacture and robust enough to last under vehicle conditions has proven to be difficult. That is a technical problem, so it is likely solvable, but it is something that has been hammered on for decades, without much progress. This is not new stuff, the Apollo space ships used fuel cells but for NASA cost was no object. Consider the progress made in lowering the cost of solar cells over all those years. Fuel cells? Not so much.

Others above have mentioned the enormous cost of installing hydrogen fueling infrastructure. Compare that to electricity, which is everywhere. The cost of EVSEs is utterly trivial by comparison.

These are just some of the practical considerations. The politics of the situation make it clear that that some auto manufacturers are using hydrogen fuel cells as a delaying tactic for pollution and fuel efficiency regulation: "See, we're working on hydrogen fuel cells as the ideal solution. Just a few more years and they'll be the ultimate answer. We promise!" I don't buy it. This is nothing but a scam to delay more rigorous fuel and pollution efficiency requirements by CARB and similar entities.

My 2¢.
 
epirali said:
pkulak said:
Unless platinum has become super cheap, or they figured out a way to make a fuel cell from a different catalyst, this car is going to cost a fortune. Probably more than a Tesla with about the same range, such that no one in their right mind would every buy one. And if you do buy one, you're just increasing platinum scarcity even more.

Can you elaborate? I am not very familiar with this. Why would you need platinum to store liquid hydrogen as part of the cell?

What I was reading is using carbon fiber constructs for the fuel cell for strength and impact resistance. And release doesn't seem as big an issue as it should turn to gas and escape in most cases.

The platinum is needed to build the fuel cell itself, not for storage.
 
most of what needs to be said, already has been above.

I think before hydrogen fuel cell vehicles see the light of day, you would see CNG vehicles, as natural gas is possible to fuel from your home (via a home compressor), and the US has a large supply of natural gas... even CNG has not made much progress, as the vehicles are expensive, and the refueling stations are scarce as well. Plus these vehicles have about the same range as an 85KWH Tesla Model S (under 300 miles). also CNG is basically an ICE vehicle with a modified carb... and we just don't see them around.

again, the solution is obvious, spend the research money on improving battery storage technology (or some other way of storing electricity), and the problem is solved. Tesla is working on lowering the cost of batteries, and, that is probably the way to go. If they can get the cost down low enough, they can make a 200 mile EV for not much more than the Nissan Leaf, able to charge at the Nationwide network of SuperChargers, for free. Let's see Hydrogen or CNG compete with that.
 
I'm not rooting against them by any means but all this model E talk on various threads leaves me shaking my head. My guess is that will still be pretty expensive car by most people's standards, and it's going to be longer coming than expected. A long ways from competing with $20k-ish post credit Leafs.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
I'm not rooting against them by any means but all this model E talk on various threads leaves me shaking my head. My guess is that will still be pretty expensive car by most people's standards, and it's going to be longer coming than expected. A long ways from competing with $20k-ish post credit Leafs.

It's apples and oranges:

Leaf: 71 mile highway range, $30K
Model E: ~150 mile highway range, $40K (bare base model)

By the time the Model E is availble in 2017, all of the Leaf incentives will be gone anyway, which will level the playing field. Studies have shown people need 2-3 times their expected daily driving range to feel comfortable. The Model E, even if it only has 150 mile highway range will accomplish that (rumored to be between 150-200), Nissan has not improved the range of the Leaf since I reserved one in 2010 (and ultimately decided not to buy it).

Also do not forget about access to the Tesla SuperCharger network, which may or may not be free to Model E drivers, they will be widely deployed nationwide by then, allowing long distance travel with far fewer stops than the competition, Tesla will be filling in places with heavy usage by then as well. In short, an ICE killer.
 
It is true there are several issues, but there are solutions.

I've discussed the particular issue of home fuelling in http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16509" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .
 
dpgColorado - Many years ago the solution was supposed to be metal hydrides, which would allow hydrogen to be stored safely in a fairly dense manner. Don't hear about that anymore. Why?

Thank your Government!
Go to 7:50 in this video and you will have your answer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjeM2IBhtlc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Gov't will not allow this to be sold but it's not illegal to own.
This guy made his own Hydride... He had to build his own particle accelerator!!!! YEAH Americans!!!
He owns and run's 'United Nuclear' an awesome scientific parts supplier.
https://www.unitednuclear.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Flashman said:
Go to 7:50 in this video and you will have your answer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjeM2IBhtlc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
D'you mean the claim that it is nuclear material!! What a load of old crap!

There are plenty of research projects out there working on metal hydrides to store hydrogen. A colleague of mine has a son doing a research project on it.

(... and guess what, they don't use lithium deuteride!!!)

Some metals do not form 'hydrides' as such (as they are described), hydrogen can actually form into metallic solutions with them, and not only alkali metals, so can then be coaxed out easily as it is not a chemical bond as such. Palladium is a common example, but obviously too expensive for such a solution at the scale required for automotive.
 
D'you mean the claim that it is nuclear material!! What a load of old crap!
Exactly!! ... more like BIG OIL and the good ole boy political crone factory.

That is exactly what has prevented Mr. Lazar from going into business with his storage tanks and generator kits.
He was visited by the suit types and instantly stepped on and soon fell under Red Tape purgatory for his real business.
They began to use the state and new regulations to affect his business.
You know... the old... "hey this stuff you sell as scientific supplies are very dangerous.... hope you don't run afoul of the laws buddy."
It forced him to close shop and move his business out of state.

I give to guy huge Props... not many folks can just go and build a particle accelerator to make the stuff themselves!
But that is how he has built his H cars that he drives regularly.
I have been following his progress for years on the net.
 
Flashman said:
D'you mean the claim that it is nuclear material!! What a load of old crap!
Exactly!! ... more like BIG OIL and the good ole boy political crone factory.
Yeah, yeah, and if it wasn't for them, all cars would be running on water by now and idiots who actually put electricity and/or fuel into their cars are bone-headed dim-wits.

:roll:

Maybe you should go find a 'conspiracy' forum somewhere.
 
Yeah, yeah, and if it wasn't for them, all cars would be running on water by now and idiots who actually put electricity and/or fuel into their cars are bone-headed dim-wits.

No sir, just you.
Do some research and find some facts before speaking.
 
epirali said:
I'd buy one the minute its available. This could really hurt Tesla.
the hydrogen hoax ... read it, before you go thinking Tesla is shaking in their boots.
Btw ... guess how many hydrogen refueling stations in your state - much less other states. Hopefully you'll have a really really long heat resistant straw that'll reach all the way to the sun - where hydrogen occurs naturally
.
 
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