car wont go into drive or reverse. Starts fine

[Bombastinator2]

I keep it in the garage but that is possible. That is very possible. My wifes Lincoln isalso in the garage now so I am going to have my neighbor set some traps

TLDNR: pest control crap.

I’m personally a fan of peanut butter for most rodent traps. Theres a reason squirrels are often called tree rats. Rats are a lot smarter than mice, and a trap type that will catch a mouse often doesn’t work on a rat. The first step iirc is thinking about needs. A pest needs food, water, warmth,(depending on climate) and an entrance. The easiest one to destroy is often the entrance. How are they getting in?(if they’re there). Food and water is often outside the garage, so blocking the one often gets the others too. Maybe look around for a gnawed hole or something. Anything bigger than a Tubman will do it. They're pretty impressive gnawers. Their front teeth are often orange. That’s actually iron. They can gnaw through most stuff. They’re not great at steel though. A sturdy steel grillwork foamed in with spray foam often does it. The minimal expansion stuff is safer because it takes longer to set and tends to work its way into stuff rather than blowing it apart. The preferred method for squirrels is a one way door. Out but not in. They even sell em.

Another one is physiology. A male rat and mouse have testicles that are bigger than its brain. And more than metaphorically. They sometimes drag on the ground. Also they like to leave pee trails. They can often be tracked using them. I might try a black light. Make the fluids and organics glow. Looking for rodent poop is also sometimes useful. Little teeny poops.

 

[Kenny]

“Boy I could make a good living selling all the replaced 12 volt batteries that didn't fix the problem "but needed to be replaced anyway",

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[cornbinder89]

Ok, Lefty brought up the shifter and its possible failure. This is going to be a long post, so if you aren't interested don't waste your time. You have been forewarned.

In the context of this thread, I don't think the shifter is the problem. But until now I didn't explain the logic for that.
The shifter has 4 positions and 4 or possibly 5 outputs.
At rest, with no input from the driver hand, there is no output and the car stays in what ever position it was last put into.
The Outputs are:
Park, this is from the button on the top, but can be placed into park by turning the car "off" as well
Neutral: this requires a stick movement and being held for a set time, it is not instantaneous
D: requires passing thru the neutral position and again being held for a small time before the car will react
R: requires same movement through neutral but ends at the other end of the shift gate.
That is four, the fifth is B mode which the shifter movement is exactly the same as D.
I have not dug through the wiring diagrams, and do not intend to to do so, I will leave that to others if they are so inclined. There are two ways the signal could be transmitted to the VCM.
One is a multiplex signal on a single wire, the other is with independent wires for each selection, or even a combo of multiplex and multiple wires.
I believe I read a thread where someone "reversed the shift pattern" on his Leaf so I think wires are what is used but will defer to someone who can document otherwise.
For the sake of ruling the shifter out it really doesn't make much difference.
If the car failed to enter one position but the others could be selected, then the chances the shifter has a fault is high, but not 100%, it could be the "reverse wire" is open if reverse can not be selected etc. But a not being able to select one of the positions does make the shifter suspect.
However not being able to select 2 positions (in this case drive and reverse) and having that problem happen suddenly and simultaneously the odds drop way below that of a single failure in the shifter, esp when Neutral and Park still work. Some statistician could tell you the chances, I am not one. However, a single output failure, the chances of the shifter being the problem could be as high as 90% or more, the chances of a sudden double failure, the chances drop well below 10%. If the shift was completely dead, I.E it would not do anything, would not go into neutral or back to park from neutral, then the chances of a shifter failure rise again. As long as it will give an output, so the car will go into neutral, than it chances of a dual point simultaneous failure is what we are look at.
The service manual addresses the diagnoses of the shifter by looking at the output on the scanner. If it doesn't see the output.
A person can easily run a check on their shifter if the car will not shift into a gear: 1st does it shift from park to neutral? 2nd will it shift back to park if the button is pressed? 3rd will it shift into reverse? 4th will it shift into drive?
If it will do the 1st two but not the last two, it is very unlikely the shifter is at fault. If it will do three of the above but not all four, it raises the chances the shifter is at fault, If It can't select a driving position, the shifter eliminated by logic testing. There is still a very small chance that a simultaneous double failure happened, but it is far more likely that some other requirement hasn't been met for the desired result to happen. Brake pedal not depressed, car in "on" but not "ready" or the VCM blocking the choice are all possibilities.
The logic is not a 100% test, I agree but I'll take the odds and look elsewhere first before digging deeper into the shifter as the cause. If it will do the first two functions in the above test and not the last two, the chances are greater than 95% that the shifter is NOT the cause of the problem.
When trying to solve a problem like the O/P has, You could spend weeks checking every function in the car under all conditions, or you can use probability to look at the most likely cause areas first and only after they are ruled out go to the less likely. Right now an interlock code is the most likely cause of it suddenly not being able to go into any gear, that doesn't tell you where the problem is, it is just one more confirming symptom. The cause is what triggers the interlock, not the interlock itself. An Interlock code will prevent the car from going into gear, but will allow it into neutral and park. The symptoms are 100% consistent with an interlock code. That is not the same as saying it is 100% an interlock that is causing the car not to go in gear. A reading of the codes stored would be the way to move from consistent to cause.
As complex as modern cars are, guessing has a very poor track record. Using simple logic (or not so simple) to focus on the most likely cause of a symptom has become a necessity in diagnosing, otherwise there are just far too many interactions that could in someway be tied into the symptom to test each and every one. If you look at all the symptoms as a whole and ask what would fit them all?, you have a much better chance of focusing in on the problem area with a minimum of time investment.

 

[Cameron]

As someone who has been paid to fix things for over 50 years, I know to confirm the item in question before replacing it. Confirm that it is the problem.
do you concede the point that disconnecting the 12 volt battery erases the trouble codes?
do you concede the point that if the 12 volt battery were the problem, that simply attaching a booster with jumper cables or a battery charger would eliminate the problem if it were the 12 volt? there by ruling in or out a low battery supply. A quick simple confirmation that for whatever reason, it wasn't receiving enough 12 volt current, but no one suggest this simple test. It still doesn't mean the battery is at fault, but at least you know where to start looking. I find it funny no one suggests that!
I can cause a "no start" (no ready) by simply trying to put it in gear before it has finished its self check.
There are many ways the system can be confused just by not letting it finish, some of those can trip an interlock which will prevent it going to ready, and by removing the 12 volt supply, you reset, whether if it is to install a new battery or just to re attach the old one, makes no difference.
If it will go though the self test and will move out of park, but not into gear, it is NOT the 12 volt, it has pulled in the main contactor and it is something else that is not allowing it into ready mode.
The main loads on the 12 volt are the main contactor, park pawl motor and only once in ready mode, the steering and brake assist, although these don't come into play right away.
It is very evident to me that many have not bothered to download and read the service manuals that are available for free. These very same people seam to feel they know more than those who have read the manual, although they can't come up with documented proof of what they say. (not pointing at you, but in general)
Most of the situations where "battery replacement" is being recommended are classic signs of an interlock being tripped and preventing it from going into ready mode. If it was a one off com glitch, re-setting (erasing the code) would allow the system to go to ready. You can do that by erasing the code with the OBD 2 scanner or by removing the 12 volt, either way, once the code is gone, the start will happen. If however it is a more serious problem, like HV isolation leak, then the code will not clear, or will return on start, and the interlock will remain, no matter how many 12 volt batteries you put in.
If you treat the symptom but not the root cause, it will keep coming back.
The 12 volt battery in the Leaf has one of the easiest duties there is, no glow plugs followed by cranking a diesel, no being shoved up against a hot engine or radiator and no high current loads.
To suggest that Nissan engineers don't know how to charge a lead acid battery, but people here know better is laughable. The service the battery is in is different than most here are familiar with, so don't look to what you old car did and say that is the best way to do it on a Leaf.
We have people at both ends of the spectrum, those that say the Leaf charging system and battery are useless and need constant changing, and those that hook 1000 watt inverters to the exact same and claim no problems.
Except in very rare occasions, before I change a part, it is confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the CAUSE of the problem.
The list of codes that will trip a fail-safe or interlock is a long one, and a little "noise" on the com bus can cause an intermittent or one off problem, that can lock off a function.
I currently have three of the batteries that the Leaf uses in my stable, They vary in age but have yet to have one fail. Two of them are in much more demanding applications than the Leaf.
Over the years I have worked on all kinds of equipment from industrial, aircraft, power generation, motor vehicles, just about anything, and no one like someone who replaces parts and doesn't fix the problem. Do too much of it and you'll be out of a job in the better shops. Diagnoses is difficult and can be time consuming, and often isn't compensated well in commercial shops, but that is no excuse for not doing it and just throwing parts at the problem.
I'm sure I will rub some the wrong way, but I will not agree just to get along. Most cases I'll back up a claim with the documentation, in cases of how things work. In cases of helping people, it is more difficult, they are with the car and we are limited by what they see and relate. We just had one where there are differing ideas on what it means to "turn on" or "start".

+1 CB. I'm glad that you're on here and I wish when I visited Iowa form Australia a few years ago, I wasn't on here then and didn't know of you (of course) so missed the opportunity to enjoy a beer and share auto stories. CR

 

[Bombastinator2]

+1 CB. I'm glad that you're on here and I wish when I visited Iowa form Australia a few years ago, I wasn't on here, didn't know of you so missed the opportunity to enjoy a beer and share auto stories. CR

CB. Now there’s something I haven’t heard of in a while. Likely means something totally different now. I do agree. Troubleshooting problems is to some degree the same no matter what you’re trying to fix, be it a lawn mower or a computer. Try to reduce to one as much as possible, known good is your friend, and easy and cheap to fix possibilities trump hard and expensive.

 

[BillAinCT]

Park, this is from the button on the top, but can be placed into park by turning the car "off" as well

You missed one. Opening the driver's door under 5 mph. Which I personally think was a bad decision by the engineers because you're moving and it slams into the parking pawl.

 

[macgeeknz]

Ended up having car towed to Nissan dealer and it was corrosion on the heater harness. Very expensive repair on top of battery I purchased thinking maybe that was the problem.

Corrosion on the heater harness! Wow. That could have taken a bit of time to diagnose, maybe that's why it was so expensive? Or was it the parts? I wonder if it was the PTC heater harness or the A/C unit harness. Or the battery heater harness.

My friend had a vehicle in which a previous owner had lost a rubber bung and it caused a small drip to only occasionally and in the right conditions form and drop down into the back of multi-wire harness connector which in turn caused a sensor to mis-read and the car to randomly although only very occasionally drop into limp mode. This wasn't a Leaf mind you, but it just goes to show that water in the wrong place can cause extremely difficult to find problems.

I hope all the money you'll still save on gas will make it worthwhile

 

[Bombastinator2]

Corrosion on the heater harness! Wow. That could have taken a bit of time to diagnose, maybe that's why it was so expensive? Or was it the parts? I wonder if it was the PTC heater harness or the A/C unit harness. Or the battery heater harness.

My friend had a vehicle in which a previous owner had lost a rubber bung and it caused a small drip to only occasionally and in the right conditions form and drop down into the back of multi-wire harness connector which in turn caused a sensor to mis-read and the car to randomly although only very occasionally drop into limp mode. This wasn't a Leaf mind you, but it just goes to show that water in the wrong place can cause extremely difficult to find problems.

I hope all the money you'll still save on gas will make it worthwhile

I bet it was mostly labor. It probably took pros a good bit of time to figure out that one.

 

[LeftieBiker]

TLDNR: grumping about terminology

I hate how “straw man” found its new and often incorrect definition in the popular lexicon. It was introduced by an obfusticated college sports personality using the definition of that sport, because it was useful to them at the time, but which was quite extreme, and not totally accurate. The result is it gets used in places like this. Straw man is not always a fallacy. Or rather analogies are not always “straw man”, as is effectively required in policy debate scoring.

A straw man argument is one in which it is claimed that someone has said something that they have not, followed by that nonexistent claim being refuted or at least rebutted. AFAIK it has nothing to do with any particular sport, and it's used correctly more often than not, as I've witnessed. The reason for that is that few people are taught how to form a logical, rational argument any more - they just throw whatever think will stick at the metaphorical wall. As for it being "new", well it was to me 30 years ago when I first learned of it. Everything is relative, I guess...

 

[Bombastinator2]

A straw man argument is one in which it is claimed that someone has said something that they have not, followed by that nonexistent claim being refuted or at least rebutted. AFAIK it has nothing to do with any particular sport, and it's used correctly more often than not, as I've witnessed. The reason for that is that few people are taught how to form a logical, rational argument any more - they just throw whatever think will stick at the metaphorical wall. As for it being "new", well it was to me 30 years ago when I first learned of it. Everything is relative, I guess...

TLDNR: explaining the point about straw man. Complicated backstory of an obscure 90’s sport.

But it does. There is policy debate, and Lincoln/Douglas debate. They are two different systems, the only difference being how straw man is dealt with. It has massive ramifications resulting in two completely different styles. This is sometime described as LD allowing straw man arguments but it’s not quite true. (Close but not quite) It is merely that the definition is much less strict. A person has to describe WHY an argument is a fallacy each time, rather than merely screaming “straw man”. (Everything is timed) Policy debate (the sport I was referring to, which has the same scholarship system as college basketball or college football) has a much more extreme definition which basically allows a player to turn almost any analogy made into straw man. The person has to explain why their analogy is NOT straw man each time. A burden of proof issue. This means that in LD a person can get away with a straw man argument if it is not challenged, where in policy debate they can’t, as recognizing that something is an analogy and screaming “straw man” whenever one hears one is much easier and more importantly faster than refuting one each time. This was the definition pushed by Rusch Limbaugh who was a policy debate juggernaut until someone discovered a hole in the rules whereby simply speaking very quickly one could win anything because one covered more points. Quantity now trumped quality. (Ironically while Rusch was a junior, and killing his college career) This left Limbaugh out in the cold because he was not a fast talker, much like that woman who left Olympic figure skating when they removed the figure element. So he did what people are popularly familiar with him doing. He was the one who popularized straw man in the public eye, and he championed the policy debate definition because it allowed him to destroy almost any analogy, except of course the ones he made. Policy and LD are sports. One actually has to build both a positive and negative case for every topic, and it is not judged on what you argue but how well you argue. Limbaugh was very high in that sport until it changed. If not perhaps a Michael Jordan, a Larry Bird. He was really really good. So he used his skills and those skills required the policy debate meaning of straw man. So it is what we have today. In policy analogies are effectively not allowed as is refuting an argument with “straw man” is not allowed in LD. Remember it’s not that one has to have a GOOD refutation, merely that it is not rebutted. Many rebuttals of straw man are actually crap if looked at closely.

 

[Bombastinator2]

You missed one. Opening the driver's door under 5 mph. Which I personally think was a bad decision by the engineers because you're moving and it slams into the parking pawl.

I didn’t know about that one. I’ve never attempted to jump out of my car when it was moving. I suspect that such situations are almost by definition emergencies and being hard on the car is better than the vehicle continuing to move and being hard on something else as a result.

 

[Chad E. Mo]

The slamming into park is a PITA. I work on a lot of cars and it is very common to slowly drive with the door ajar to align to a lift, listen for exterior sounds, back up to a wall, pick up something in the lot... It's jarring to say the least.

 

[cornbinder89]

A straw man argument is one in which it is claimed that someone has said something that they have not, followed by that nonexistent claim being refuted or at least rebutted. AFAIK it has nothing to do with any particular sport, and it's used correctly more often than not, as I've witnessed. The reason for that is that few people are taught how to form a logical, rational argument any more - they just throw whatever think will stick at the metaphorical wall. As for it being "new", well it was to me 30 years ago when I first learned of it. Everything is relative, I guess...

Lefty,
You have come very close to doing what you are accusing me and others of.
1) I never said that you said replace the shifter.
2) you threw out that you thought the shifter should be checked, but provided no help on how to do that.
So I am not making a straw man argument and you are very close to throwing things at the wall to see what sticks

I am trying to be of help both to the O/Per and anyone who follows, I laid out how I would go about making diagnosing choices.
I give freely of my time and receive nothing for the time and effort, but most important, I am trying to show how to use logic and tests to rule in or out any hypothesis.
Saying it can be anything, isn't helpful if you don't provide the info to rule things in or out.
I was very careful not to suggest any one part, because there is no evidence pointing to any single part being the cause. What there is, evidence that the symptoms are consistent of an interlock being tripped and nothing more.
There are a lot of DTC's that can trip an interlock but the list is finite, and the DTC's would be a clue where to look.
I had mentioned several times that the shifter demonstrated at least some function, and that is why I ruled it out as it doesn't fit the reported symptoms completely, and for that to be the problem it would have to have two failures at the ld be same time. I thought that would be obvious, but I guess not, so I typed out the logic behind the reason not to include the shifter.

 

[LeftieBiker]

"Many rebuttals of straw man are actually crap if looked at closely."

Of course they are, because building and then demolishing a straw man is primarily the work of the unscrupulous and the lazy. I don't "scream" anything, but I do consider it at best poor manners to use lying about an opponent's positions and statements as an arguing technique. So lets just note that I don't approve of misrepresenting what other people say or think here. You can have the final word so we can get back on topic.

 

[Bombastinator2]

The slamming into park is a PITA. I work on a lot of cars and it is very common to slowly drive with the door ajar to align to a lift, listen for exterior sounds, back up to a wall, pick up something in the lot... It's jarring to say the least.

TLDNR: ancient story about icy roads

A example of how that 5mph park wouldn’t have done a blithering thing.
The only time I’ve ever opened the door of a moving car was back during the Halloween blizzard of ‘99. It dumped about an inch of solid ice on everything. Slowest unavoidable car crash I’ve ever heard of. I was doing about 5mph (it was that icy) and there was a pickup stopped at a light a block ahead. I hit the brakes then (icy) and literally nothing happened. Pump the brakes, nada. Shure the wheels stopped turning but that didn’t DO anything. I tried to drive up onto the curb and merely spun in a slow circle. I couldn’t alter the trajectory of the vehicle at all. So I opened the door, stuck my leg out, and tried to drag it on something. Didn’t work of course. So it was like “well, I’m gonna hit this guy..” and just sat and watched it happen as there was nothing I could do. It took a good minute. It was a lifted pickup so its rear bumper hit my grille (why don’t they mandate bumper height so they’re actually worth something?!) and folded my hood in half. Near totaled the car.

 

[Webnine]

They called yesterday and the corrosion repaired and car ready to go. It was a $600 repair bill. I do not know specifics but will pich the car up Mar. 1 when I return from Florida. I will look at repair details and report the problem on the forum

 

[cornbinder89]

Thanks, again for following up, and I hope all is well with it from now on. Sorry if we got deep "in the weeds" on your problem, but I think this type of problem is going to be one to watch as the Leaf population ages.
More people may face similar, if not the same problems.

 

[Bombastinator2]

They called yesterday and the corrosion repaired and car ready to go. It was a $600 repair bill. I do not know specifics but will pich the car up Mar. 1 when I return from Florida. I will look at repair details and report the problem on the forum

Well assuming you don’t get eaten by an alligator or other resident (imho the alligators are not the creepiest thing there the Floridians are) everything sounds good then