Car Can Be Unintentionally Put in Neutral While Plugged In

[JustinC]

When I said "dangerous possibility," I mean dangerous for the car and charger, not the driver. Granted, careful driving will prevent this, but that doesn't mean it's good the way it is. The fact that it is being brought up means there is a problem. Are you the lowest common denominator, i.e. the most careless person you know? If you are, and you would never make this mistake, even before you've had your coffee, then you're right - it's perfect the way it is.

Like I said, I've never made the mistake, but I realized how it could be made. The interface of starting the LEAF and putting it in gear is unusual, you have to admit. That fact makes it more likely that a user will misunderstand the status of the car because it already acts differently from every other car they have driven. When you put an ICE in D or R, you feel the click of the gear shift as it goes into place in addition to the visual cue of seeing the indicator of which gear you put it in. This is how we all learned to drive and how we drove for most of our lives. The LEAF has no tactile or audible feedback of being put in gear, or even turned on - especially if the radio and AC are on.

You are confident that you will not make this mistake, but are you confident that your spouse would not make the mistake, or your teenage offspring?

The point is that it should be improved. I agree with Stoaty's suggestion:

Leaf can only be put into neutral when car is not turned on by pushing shifter to the left and holding it there for a second or two. There is no reason that trying to shift into reverse while car is in accessory mode should put the car in neutral.

This shouldn't bother anyone who is too smart to make this mistake.

 

[ztanos]

"4) Shift into reverse, not looking at dash screen to see warning that Leaf won't start"


User error, period.

In an ICE, don't look down to see if car is in "R" or "D", push gas, hit garage door. When you start 3400 lb. motor vehicle it makes sense to be sure it is in "gear" before letting off the brake pedal or the parking brake, basic driving skills! Cord or no cord. There is noting unintentional about this just like "unintentionally" driving away from a gas pump while the nozzle is in the car. It is simply sloppy driving skills and applies to any motor vehicle. When one learns to drive they teach these basic starting skills not "the car will monitor all your mistakes, only pay attention if you feel like it"
Lot's of bugs there but not in the car :lol:

An ICE that is working as designed won't shift out of park without the key in the ignition and turned. So that eliminates that argument. The car should not shift into neutral this easily when it isn't in the run position. Ever seen little kids sitting in the driver seat while the parents run inside the gas station for a drink? I imagine it's quite easy to bump that knob. Boom, runaway LEAF with kid inside. Yes, this is a drastic situation, but it could easily happen. IMO, this was a design flaw and should be corrected. Even if it only means to make you hold it into N for 5 seconds. That isn't that big of a deal, as I'm sure you won't be moving the car with it off that often.

I would say there are plenty of bugs with this car. The fact that it doesn't have a "neutral safety switch" would be one.

 

[Stoaty]

Both bugs (charger connected, charger not connected) reported to NHTSA as safety issue.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The sky is falling folks. These are not design flaws they are user errors. In fact one could argue that the car has a design flaw because it can't go into run while plugged in and in "P", enabling use of certain items on grid power. Not unplugging the car first regardless of a lock out feature is not a design flaw it is a lack of an idiot proof feature. What if I want to do that, is it a design flaw? No. The car will work properly with no safety issue if the user uses it properly and that is a fact. The flaw is the user not the car. Duck!

 

[EVDRIVER]

"4) Shift into reverse, not looking at dash screen to see warning that Leaf won't start"


User error, period.

In an ICE, don't look down to see if car is in "R" or "D", push gas, hit garage door. When you start 3400 lb. motor vehicle it makes sense to be sure it is in "gear" before letting off the brake pedal or the parking brake, basic driving skills! Cord or no cord. There is noting unintentional about this just like "unintentionally" driving away from a gas pump while the nozzle is in the car. It is simply sloppy driving skills and applies to any motor vehicle. When one learns to drive they teach these basic starting skills not "the car will monitor all your mistakes, only pay attention if you feel like it"
Lot's of bugs there but not in the car :lol:

An ICE that is working as designed won't shift out of park without the key in the ignition and turned. So that eliminates that argument. The car should not shift into neutral this easily when it isn't in the run position. Ever seen little kids sitting in the driver seat while the parents run inside the gas station for a drink? I imagine it's quite easy to bump that knob. Boom, runaway LEAF with kid inside. Yes, this is a drastic situation, but it could easily happen. IMO, this was a design flaw and should be corrected. Even if it only means to make you hold it into N for 5 seconds. That isn't that big of a deal, as I'm sure you won't be moving the car with it off that often.

I would say there are plenty of bugs with this car. The fact that it doesn't have a "neutral safety switch" would be one.

]


I never made that argument. Read my analogy again. Also, these are not "bugs", a bug would be the car not going into "D" when you push it there or going into park when you place it in "D". The car operates as designed. There are some bugs in the navigation.

 

[Stoaty]

I never made that argument. Read my analogy again. Also, these are not "bugs", a bug would be the car not going into "D" when you push it there or going into park when you place it in "D". The car operates as designed.

Agreed. That is why I called it a design flaw--for safety reasons you want to idiot-proof a 3000+ pound vehicle to the extent it is reasonably possible. The software change would be easy to implement. There is no good reason for the current design; I offered an improvement that increases safety. No one has pointed out any downsides of my proposed change.

 

[vrwl]

As a new LEAF owner, I've tried to drive away with the car plugged in a couple of times now, but I DON'T have my startup sound disengaged, so as soon as I pushed the button to start the car and didn't hear the chime, I knew I had a problem. But I HAVE driven away with the charging port door flipped up and wide open. A couple of times actually.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have long believed that there should not be any reason that a vehicle could move without a driver.
This would eliminate situations where someone jumps or of a car thinking they had put the vehicle in park only to have the car start rolling away.

But they still till off. Now we have cars that hereto and

squeal at us if we don't wear our seat belts but will still drive off knowing full well that no one its sitting

 

[RegGuheert]

As a new LEAF owner, I've tried to drive away with the car plugged in a couple of times now, but I DON'T have my startup sound disengaged, so as soon as I pushed the button to start the car and didn't hear the chime, I knew I had a problem.

I've done the same thing several times except I only figured it out when the car wouldn't move. We only plug the car in occasionally and the way we approach the car does not give visibility to whether or not it is plugged in other than the fact that the charging door is open. As others have said, at home this is not a big issue, since the garage floor is level.

The one and only time I have used a public charging station the LEAF was parked in a spot which sloped away from the EVSE. My son sat in the car alone for a portion of the time. I don't recall what mode the car was in, but I can easily see a dangerous situation with a passenger sitting in a LEAF and bumping or fiddling with the shifter puck.

But I HAVE driven away with the charging port door flipped up and wide open. A couple of times actually.

Well, I haven't done that, yet, but I have worried that it would happen one day. I'm glad to hear that it is sturdy enough to not blow off going down the road!

I have long believed that there should not be any reason that a vehicle could move without a driver.
This would eliminate situations where someone jumps or of a car thinking they had put the vehicle in park only to have the car start rolling away.

But they still till off. Now we have cars that hereto and

squeal at us if we don't wear our seat belts but will still drive off knowing full well that no one its sitting

Our tractor cannot be started unless someone is sitting in the driver's seat, the clutch is pushed in AND the hydrostatic control pedal is not commanding the vehicle to go forward or backward. I believe there have been quite a few deaths caused by owners standing beside a tractor and starting it, only to be run over because it was in gear.

It also shuts down immediately if I get up from the seat while the PTO is engaged.

The simple fact is that many lives have been saved by dangerous equipment that protects us from ourselves. OTOH, there are quite a few "safety" features out there which are little more than annoying. But in this case, I cannot think of a good reason to ever disengage the parking pawl if the car is plugged in. This should be changed.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

As a new LEAF owner, I've tried to drive away with the car plugged in a couple of times now, but I DON'T have my startup sound disengaged, so as soon as I pushed the button to start the car and didn't hear the chime, I knew I had a problem.

I've done the same thing several times except I only figured it out when the car wouldn't move. We only plug the car in occasionally and the way we approach the car does not give visibility to whether or not it is plugged in other than the fact that the charging door is open. As others have said, at home this is not a big issue, since the garage floor is level.

The one and only time I have used a public charging station the LEAF was parked in a spot which sloped away from the EVSE. My son sat in the car alone for a portion of the time. I don't recall what mode the car was in, but I can easily see a dangerous situation with a passenger sitting in a LEAF and bumping or fiddling with the shifter puck.

But I HAVE driven away with the charging port door flipped up and wide open. A couple of times actually.

Well, I haven't done that, yet, but I have worried that it would happen one day. I'm glad to hear that it is sturdy enough to not blow off going down the road!

I have long believed that there should not be any reason that a vehicle could move without a driver.
This would eliminate situations where someone jumps or of a car thinking they had put the vehicle in park only to have the car start rolling away.

But they still till off. Now we have cars that hereto and

squeal at us if we don't wear our seat belts but will still drive off knowing full well that no one its sitting

Our tractor cannot be started unless someone is sitting in the driver's seat, the clutch is pushed in AND the hydrostatic control pedal is not commanding the vehicle to go forward or backward. I believe there have been quite a few deaths caused by owners standing beside a tractor and starting it, only to be run over because it was in gear.

It also shuts down immediately if I get up from the seat while the PTO is engaged.

The simple fact is that many lives have been saved by dangerous equipment that protects us from ourselves. OTOH, there are quite a few "safety" features out there which are little more than annoying. But in this case, I cannot think of a good reason to ever disengage the parking pawl if the car is plugged in. This should be changed.

the same could be said for driving off with gas cap off or with gas pump still attached to the car. there is no reason that manufacturers could disable new cars from moving if either is sensed but i dont know of any that cannot drive off this way.

it is good that some manufacturers have gone to a "capless" design where a retractable flap covers the filler hole so never a worry of fumes escaping (Ford now does this to all their vehicles) but they still allow you to drive off with the fuel pump attached.

wondering who is winning?

ICE drive offs verses EV drive offs?

 

[Stoaty]

Here is the response from Nissan to my emails. I don't think the person understood what I was pointing out:

"We received your e-mails pertaining to concerns with your Nissan Leaf. Thank you for contacting us. We always appreciate feedback from our customers.

Like any vehicle there is the chance that the Nissan Leaf will need to be towed from time to time. In order for a vehicle to be towed effectively it must be placed in neutral. My first suggestion for your issue would be to reinstate the audible sounds in your vehicle so you know the vehicle is turned on and ready to drive. This is stated on page EV-14 of your owners manual. We do not, under any circumstances, recommend accessing the vehicle while it is still plugged in and charging."

Second, the LEAF is designed with a parking brake. One of the features of this brake is to prevent you from rolling backwards or forwards if you are on a hill. The brake can be left on until you shift into drive or reverse. Once you shift into drive or reverse the parking brake will disengage on its own. You can disengage the brake when you enter the vehicle, but it is not required. This should help with your problem of rolling backward while in the garage."

 

[planet4ever]

Here is the response from Nissan to my emails.

Like any vehicle there is the chance that the Nissan Leaf will need to be towed from time to time. In order for a vehicle to be towed effectively it must be placed in neutral.

That certainly is rather odd, isn't it, since the Owner's Manual says clearly in two different sections that the LEAF must never be towed with the front wheels on the ground. Not to mention the incongruity of trying to tow it while it is plugged in. :lol:

[Well, OK, I guess someone might want to tow it behind an RV, and run the RV's 120v generator while driving down the road so they could plug in the trickle charging cord. Personally I would much rather use a campground's electricity than my own gasoline to charge my dinghy. But even if "someone" has reason to differ with me on that, we still have to go back to rule 1.]

By the way, I assume the reason for rule 1 is that there really is no such thing as neutral, in the sense of a clutch disconnect, in a LEAF. If you were pulling a LEAF down the road at 60 MPH in "neutral" with the front wheels on the ground, the motor and entire drive train would be spinning just as fast as if you were driving it at 60 MPH. The difference would be that the cooling system would not be operating.

Ray

 

[Deleted member 3147]

Here is the response from Nissan to my emails. I don't think the person understood what I was pointing out:

"We received your e-mails pertaining to concerns with your Nissan Leaf. Thank you for contacting us. We always appreciate feedback from our customers.

Like any vehicle there is the chance that the Nissan Leaf will need to be towed from time to time. In order for a vehicle to be towed effectively it must be placed in neutral. My first suggestion for your issue would be to reinstate the audible sounds in your vehicle so you know the vehicle is turned on and ready to drive. This is stated on page EV-14 of your owners manual. We do not, under any circumstances, recommend accessing the vehicle while it is still plugged in and charging."

Second, the LEAF is designed with a parking brake. One of the features of this brake is to prevent you from rolling backwards or forwards if you are on a hill. The brake can be left on until you shift into drive or reverse. Once you shift into drive or reverse the parking brake will disengage on its own. You can disengage the brake when you enter the vehicle, but it is not required. This should help with your problem of rolling backward while in the garage."

Clearly, they missed the point that putting it in neutral should require shifting to neutral (hold the shifter to the left for a few seconds) and not automatically happen when putting the car into D or N.

 

[davewill]

Here is the response from Nissan to my emails.

Like any vehicle there is the chance that the Nissan Leaf will need to be towed from time to time. In order for a vehicle to be towed effectively it must be placed in neutral.

That certainly is rather odd, isn't it, since the Owner's Manual says clearly in two different sections that the LEAF must never be towed with the front wheels on the ground. Not to mention the incongruity of trying to tow it while it is plugged in. :lol:

Actually, I see their point. If there were a short or other fault that cause the car to believe it were plugged in, you would still want to put the car in neutral in order to be able to tow easily. Not sure it overrides the problem of falling into neutral when plugged in on a slope, though. The suggestion about the parking brake IS a good idea if you charge while on a slope regularly.

 

[JustinC]

Actually, I see their point. If there were a short or other fault that cause the car to believe it were plugged in, you would still want to put the car in neutral in order to be able to tow easily. Not sure it overrides the problem of falling into neutral when plugged in on a slope, though. The suggestion about the parking brake IS a good idea if you charge while on a slope regularly.

The problem is not that it can be put in Neutral. Of course it should be allowed to be put in Neutral for towing or pushing purposes.

The problem is that it goes into neutral when trying to put it in Drive or Reverse. If they didn't allow that, when the car was not on (not sure why it even needs to be allowed when the car is on), then everyone would be satisfied I think.

You could still put the car in neutral by holding the shifter to the left for 2 seconds.

Here's a question - can the car be put in neutral if it is totally dead and won't turn on at all?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Actually, I see their point. If there were a short or other fault that cause the car to believe it were plugged in, you would still want to put the car in neutral in order to be able to tow easily. Not sure it overrides the problem of falling into neutral when plugged in on a slope, though. The suggestion about the parking brake IS a good idea if you charge while on a slope regularly.

The problem is not that it can be put in Neutral. Of course it should be allowed to be put in Neutral for towing or pushing purposes.

The problem is that it goes into neutral when trying to put it in Drive or Reverse. If they didn't allow that, when the car was not on (not sure why it even needs to be allowed when the car is on), then everyone would be satisfied I think.

You could still put the car in neutral by holding the shifter to the left for 2 seconds.

Here's a question - can the car be put in neutral if it is totally dead and won't turn on at all?

not very likely

 

[ztanos]

Actually, I see their point. If there were a short or other fault that cause the car to believe it were plugged in, you would still want to put the car in neutral in order to be able to tow easily. Not sure it overrides the problem of falling into neutral when plugged in on a slope, though. The suggestion about the parking brake IS a good idea if you charge while on a slope regularly.

The problem is not that it can be put in Neutral. Of course it should be allowed to be put in Neutral for towing or pushing purposes.

The problem is that it goes into neutral when trying to put it in Drive or Reverse. If they didn't allow that, when the car was not on (not sure why it even needs to be allowed when the car is on), then everyone would be satisfied I think.

You could still put the car in neutral by holding the shifter to the left for 2 seconds.

Here's a question - can the car be put in neutral if it is totally dead and won't turn on at all?

ICE cars require that the car be in the run position before it will disengage the shift lock. You can override it with a paperclip, but that is a conscientious decision. I think that the LEAF should have the same option. Not coming out of park unless it's on or you hit the override switch.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

dont quote me on this but pretty sure the Prius has the same issues with being put in neutral as well. has to boot up and the slight power needs to do that is a benefit but i think with more cars going to software controls that this issue will become common.

what "seems" to be the likely solution is a way to put the car in neutral intentionally and easily while eliminating any possibility of doing so accidentally which makes it a non trivial task. i do see cars now especially ones with 4WD where the option to change modes is buried in a menu requiring at least two different discrete decisions to make any changes. i think the LEAF should do the same,

now after saying that; the ability to "flat tow" (all 4 wheels on the ground) is something that seems to be going away especially in all wheel options and 4WD options. not sure why

 

[Stoaty]

Case numbers at NHTSA:

10472378 (Power Train) - Leaf accidentally put in neutral in accessory mode
10472379 (Vehicle Speed Control) - Leaf accidentally put in neutral while plugged in

 

[EVDRIVER]

I think it is a pain trying to get the car into neutral. Never had an issue here. There are also many folks here that constantly leave their cars on and walk away. I park on hills all the time, nothing but hills here and never had the car go into neutral, never rolled back when I did not want it to. When on an incline I do something commonly know as "paying attention". This car is so easy to operate properly it is almost insulting. I must have a special firmware that keeps all these issues from happening In the meantime there are serious safety issues with the stability control that acts like a paranoid back seat driver and almost certainly will cause an accident not prevent one.

I suggest these with a cord attached to the charge handle, then run through the steering wheel as a reminder. Add a plack to the mirror that has a large arrow pointing down to the brake. :lol:

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