Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[JustLeafingThru]

I would submit that resetting the BMS is/will-be a fairly common practice (not any deliberate attempt to obfuscate the degradation). When I first brought my Leaf in (thinking I was the only one not getting the expected range/gids) they kept it for a week trying to figure out what was going on and one of the things they tried was resetting the BMS. I still had all 12 bars at that point so I really didn't notice anything but I suspect this will not be an uncommon observation as more people take their car in in an attempt to address the degradation.

How much advance notice did the dealership have that you a) were coming in for service, and, b) that you had lost a bar ?

Edit: Sorry, this question is directed at RickS.

 

[stanley]

I agree with cwerdna. I would not rush to make any changes. First of all Tesla has only delivered 10 or so cars. Too early to tell how reliable the car will be. All new cars have warts and that one will too. I seriously wonder how a battery pack with 7,000 telephone batteries will last. The repairs will probably not be cheap and labor intensive. We will know a great deal more about the S in about a year or so whether it is a good car to buy.

I have confidence that Nissan will do the "right" thing about the battery issue. If for no other reason, they need to protect the Billions of dollars they have invested in their EV.

Last and not least, I love my Leaf better than the Mercedes , and Lexus cars that i have owned

 

[Herm]

The car was at the dealer for about five hours. I brought it in about half charged and it was almost full when I picked it up so they didn't have any chance to swap anything I'm sure. That and the service receipt specifically said no cells need replacing.

Rick is there a chance they upgraded the software?.. its possible that they may have reset the 12th bar, but if you do have deterioration it will come back quickly after you do a few 100% charges.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

RickS stated that this morning his car charged to 9FB @80% this IMO is an indication that he is close to lose his 12CB, again

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Fair enough but that is not my concern. The northwest will likely fair amongst the best in the country due to the cool ambient year round temps. My concern is that Nissan is botching this so bad that the market for the car will be irreparably damaged. While I was very clear about the (lack of) guarantee I signed and it's limits, I was very much going on a variety of things that have come out of the Nissan camp such as that they plowed 4 Billion into the battery research, that they'd thoroughly tested in Phoenix, even had a car on a track there with over 100,000 miles on it and ticking, getting quick charged continuously, with no signs of degradation (been told this by more than one Nissan salesman, even recently). Nowhere did I hear that "gradual" could mean 20+% in one year, I was prepared for 20% over 5 years. What is happening now is so beyond anything spelled out that it brings into question the validity of any claims coming from Nissan. the fear contagion is dangerous and will likely cause a contraction of caution in the market. I can't afford that hit, even if protecting myself means feeding the trend.

As for the Tesla, they may not be around for long, but I have to admit to being very impressed by Pay pal, solar city, space X and Tesla... Elon Musk is aspiring to the likes of Steve Jobs... the guy is about making things happen and he has gotten very good at it.

I am fully aware of the waiting list, I currently hold a refundable deposit for a 2013, with something like 10 months to think it over. 2013 may very well sell out before the end of 2012 at the rate it's going. I don't think the insurance is going to be all that different from our hybrid highlander which is practically on par with the base S.

It doesn't have to be an either or proposition, we have two cars, the question is which one will we let go of. We'd love to be 100% electric by trading the highlander for the S but if Nissan doesn't get it's act together quickly, we will have to consider swift action ahead of what will surely be a downward trend in the Leaf market.

as for writing a letter, I figure that everything written here is pretty much an open letter to Nissan... they definitely monitor this site.

I'm definitely torn. I like the Leaf in many ways, I've only owned the current one for a matter of months. it feels excessive to flip it so soon and it will cost me.
...
Tesla S...

From having lived in the Seattle area for ~9 years, IMHO, you're one of the least likely to suffer from accelerated battery degradation due to heat. I wouldn't dump it based upon such concerns. If I lived in AZ or TX, I'd be concerned.

Regarding the Tesla Model S, at this point, I'd be wary about buying their vehicles as I don't know about how long they'll be around. They haven't turned a single profit yet.

And, if you dumped your Leaf now, it'll be awhile until you can get a Model S. I don't recall the order and build sequence but think you'd have to go w/the highest battery capacity to get it this year. Or, at min, you'd have to go w/the air suspension. One of the Priuschat moderators is in line for a Model S but balked at paying for air suspension, so no car for him this year.

Do you know the details? Are you willing to pony up for whatever is required and also wait? Hpw about insurance? My gut feel tells me that insurance on a Model S will be a lot more than a Leaf.

 

[TomT]

+1!

My concern is that Nissan is botching this so bad that the market for the car will be irreparably damaged. While I was very clear about the (lack of) guarantee I signed and it's limits, I was very much going on a variety of things that have come out of the Nissan camp such as that they plowed 4 Billion into the battery research, that they'd thoroughly tested in Phoenix, even had a car on a track there with over 100,000 miles on it and ticking, getting quick charged continuously, with no signs of degradation (been told this by more than one Nissan salesman, even recently). Nowhere did I hear that "gradual" could mean 20+% in one year, I was prepared for 20% over 5 years. What is happening now is so beyond anything spelled out that it brings into question the validity of any claims coming from Nissan. the fear contagion is dangerous and will likely cause a contraction of caution in the market.

 

[mwalsh]

+2. Must admit I really did believe that Nissan was all over it's expectations when it came to the battery pack. Not so sure now, despite the ongoing (limited) reassurance. I think I've said this on the board before, but I'm sure glad that climate change seems to be making the California climate more mild overall (though also dryer, which isn't so good).

 

[GRA]

...someone needs to write a letter, open or otherwise, to the head of Nissan North America if not Carlos Ghosn himself. I'd started writing one making the same points as you, that Nissan was destroying all the goodwill (especially from new customers) they'd earned by building the first mass market BEV, as well as the fact that once this info moves from enthusiast forums to the mainstream media, anti-EV bloggers and radio ranters, it won't just be the Leaf or even Nissan that will be engulfed by the fallout - all EVs will suffer, because none of the above or the general public is likely to draw fine distinctions between battery chemistry or cars with/without TMS.

i dont know about the rest, but i would love to see your letter, Guy.

I just wrote a rough draft freehand while lying in bed, and probably covered about 2/3rd or 3/4ers of the points I was going to make before deciding not to continue. As I'm a two-finger typist I'm not inclined to type it all in if I'm not going to send it; besides, it covered many of the same points that have been mentioned by many here. On one point which I couldn't remember if it had been covered, I wrote something along these lines:
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"As a group, Leaf owners have higher incomes and are better educated, better informed and much more technically savvy than the general car-buying public. They are enthusiastic about the car and the technology and want to help it succeed, which is why Nissan's actions to date are beyond understanding. Nissan has in essence treated this group of informed, supportive but concerned owners with condescension, telling them that the high temp degradation is 'normal', when no mention of the speed of degradation in these conditions was made prior to sale. This response is perceived by owners (not just those directly affected) as both inadequate and insulting.

"It's generally acknowledged that positive word-of-mouth is the best possible form of advertising when trying to widen the potential customer base, yet Nissan seems determined to alienate the very group of people eager to provide this advertising; indeed, they were providing it prior to the appearance of the battery issue. Nissan's treatment of their early-adopter customers defies logic and common sense."
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[GRA]

Nissan has acknowledged the issue. Just because the answer is not what you want does not mean Nissan or Carlos is uninformed or doing a poor job. A letter does nothing really. There just is not going to be a massive buy back, retrofit or free batteries. It is unfortunate that it would appear heat has had a larger effect than expected. If there was any adjustment I would speculate it would be closer to the 3 to 5 year mark not now. Nissan knows exactly what they are doing. JMHO.

I don't doubt that at some level Nissan is informed, although I disagree that they've acknowledged the issue. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt when I assume that the concerns have not yet percolated up to President/CEO level. Perhaps I'm naive, but I find it unlikely that you can reach the upper echelons of a (non-family-owned) multi-national corporation while being a complete idiot, yet Nissan's corporate handling of this issue has been completely idiotic to date. So, I'm hoping the top levels of management haven't heard about it yet. After all, I very much doubt Carlos Ghosn has the spare time to peruse the numerous forums dedicated to Nissan cars or cars in general. I suspect the only reason Dan Akerson heard about the Volt issues so soon was because they'd received mainstream media attention.

 

[DesertDenizen]

A Nissan rep contacted me today. As they put rah-rah posts about the Leaf on the Leaf Facebook page I have been adding comments about the loss of cap bars in Arizona. I make clear I love my Leaf, but I want people in hot climates to know what they face. So they contacted me to 'have EV support look into my concerns'.

 

[GRA]

A Nissan rep contacted me today. As they put rah-rah posts about the Leaf on the Leaf Facebook page I have been adding comments about the loss of cap bars in Arizona. I make clear I love my Leaf, but I want people in hot climates to know what they face. So they contacted me to 'have EV support look into my concerns'.

Uh huh, and until someone much higher up the food chain instructs them to answer differently, you'll undoubtedly be told that such degradation is 'normal' and there's nothing to be concerned about, even though they didn't tell you about this before you decided to buy/lease the car.

 

[DesertDenizen]

A Nissan rep contacted me today. As they put rah-rah posts about the Leaf on the Leaf Facebook page I have been adding comments about the loss of cap bars in Arizona. I make clear I love my Leaf, but I want people in hot climates to know what they face. So they contacted me to 'have EV support look into my concerns'.

Uh huh, and until someone much higher up the food chain instructs them to answer differently, you'll undoubtedly be told that such degradation is 'normal' and there's nothing to be concerned about, even though they didn't tell you about this before you decided to buy/lease the car.

You got that right Guy. I will get my own personalized casual dismissal. It sure annoys them when I mention it on their Facebook promos of the Leaf.

 

[RickS]

My car was previously updated in May when I had it in for its initial battery check. There are no new updates since that I'm aware of so I doubt it. I may call them in the next few days and see if they'll let me talk to the tech and I'll flat out ask if he reset the BMS data.

My other thought is they ran the check, sent the data to Nissan, then cleared the data and ran it again and gave me another report card showing all 12 bars.

The 12th is still there today, but the guess o meter seems to be acting closer to how it was before. I am tempted to run a full charge tonight then an 80% on Saturday to see if anything different happens. I've been intentionally driving a bit nicer than usual, did 5mi/kwh today per the display, of course AC is not factored in to this, but the AC load was not nearly as high today thanks to a little rain storm last night.

 

[aqn]

And let the thread go wild... I got my 12th bar back.

I believe it has been speculated in these forums that the reason for the difference between battery capacity according to the battery manufacturer's specs of approx 24 kWh, and the observed capacity (both via usage meter on in-home EVSE, as well as via derivation from observed mileage and energy economy data) of approx 21.x kWh is so that when the battery's overall capacity declines, Nissan can tap into that difference as restore the "available and useable" capacity. If that is the case, then it's indeed just a simple matter of adjusting a value somewhere in the car's firmware/software.

 

[aqn]

It's a miracle! Most likely a miracle of science, but I guess there can only be two explanations. Either they are slipping in there and replacing cells, which seems unlikely for a routine visit. How long were you there?

Sounds like it was there for 4 hours, probably not enough to change out any cells...unless it's a quick process? I have no idea.

Have you seen a NASCAR pit crew or F1 pit crew at work?

Or they were fiddling with software in what would equate to playing with the odometer.

If all Nissan is doing making the display represent a diminished capacity as an "as new" capacity, then that is clearly "messing with the odometer".

If, OTOH, suppose Nissan dipped into the "normally unavailable" capacity of the battery to make the available capacity "as new", i.e. approx. 21.x kWh, is that different than, for example, Nissan replacing the battery with a brand new one having 21.x kWh capacity?

I guess only the car's current actual range will confirm which of those two scenarios occurred.

All I have to say is that if I visit the dealer for my 12-month inspection and find all my bars back, then I am immediately offering this miracle car back to them at 12-bar price and leasing a new Leaf.

I don't blame you!

 

[EdmondLeaf]

A Nissan rep contacted me today. As they put rah-rah posts about the Leaf on the Leaf Facebook page I have been adding comments about the loss of cap bars in Arizona. I make clear I love my Leaf, but I want people in hot climates to know what they face. So they contacted me to 'have EV support look into my concerns'.

Uh huh, and until someone much higher up the food chain instructs them to answer differently, you'll undoubtedly be told that such degradation is 'normal' and there's nothing to be concerned about, even though they didn't tell you about this before you decided to buy/lease the car.

You got that right Guy. I will get my own personalized casual dismissal. It sure annoys them when I mention it on their Facebook promos of the Leaf.

Dennis, I can't find your comments on Nissan Leaf FB, which video you mostly commented?

 

[opossum]

It's official. We now have a member of the 9-bar club in Phoenix. Our car wasn't the one to lose the 3rd bar (yet). I'll post more later, when I've caught up on the last several days of posting in this thread...

 

[aqn]

It's official. We now have a member of the 9-bar club in Phoenix. Our car wasn't the one to lose the 3rd bar (yet). I'll post more later, when I've caught up on the last several days of posting in this thread...

Move to strike, Your Honor: hearsay! Picture or it didn't happen.

 

[jspearman]

I think all of us who have lost a bar should actually meet each other at a real bar. Those with only one bar have to buy the two-bar losers a drink. The three bar loser gets a beer and $20 of Blink credit, since you'll be needing it.

 

[RegGuheert]

I think all of us who have lost a bar should actually meet each other at a real bar. Those with only one bar have to buy the two-bar losers a drink. The three bar loser gets a beer and $20 of Blink credit, since you'll be needing it.

What about RickS? Can he come, too, even though his bar is back?