Can I get a Data Dump on EVSE Options for a 2013 Leaf

[EVDRIVER]

..........which by the way was cheaper for me to install than the 16A EVSE upgrade would have cost, considering I would have needed to purchase the entire upgraded unit since I'm leasing.



my two cents

You did not need to buy a new upgraded unit, the majority of people lease and there are many reasons why this is an absolute non-issue when returning the car. This has been hashed out in detail.

 

[kentuckyleaf]

At home I agree. In two years and 30,000 miles, there has been less than a half dozen times when I could have really used a 6.6Kw charger at home. Those where the times when we used the car extensively during the day, were now home, and would have liked to get enough charge to use it again later in the day... For opportunity charging away from home, where there is no QC option, it is a different story and 6.6Kw would be of real advantage.

This adds a little to the question. Does it get cold where you live? I mean like below freezing, for several months in the winter? You will find yourself wanting a 30A EVSE many times during those cold months, because you can pick up a couple miles charging a battery, or you can keep your car warm with a 3.8kW EVSE, but not both. In the winter months, we have charged at home before going out dozens of times, and every time, I wished I had a 6.6 kWh charger. Heck, we did did this just yesterday.

Another question. Are you somewhere that has L2 chargers everywhere? For some posters here, the answer is yes. For me, absolutely not. We have EVSE's at Nissan dealerships, and our house. If I want to go out after work (in the winter), I must plan to pick up a charge at the house. That is the only option besides thawing out the frozen solid ICE (I know, that's kind of a funny thing to read). I never wish I was limited to 3.3 kWh during those times, but I am, due to leasing a MY 2012 Leaf. If you could plug in somewhere else, you might brave leaving the house without enough range to complete your trip. We never do that, unless there is a solid charging plan in place (like L1 at the inlaws 45 miles away). For us. a 6.6kW charger is a game changer. We could pick up our grandson in Frankfort, and pick up enough range to get home at the Frankfort Nissan dealer during a quick lunch at the Waffle House. We could charge another hour at home, and take the grandson to the Bounce House in Richmond. This is exactly what we did last weekend, but we completed this trip in the 4Runner, because once you bolt in the child seat in the 4Runner, you don't want to move it to the Leaf (otherwise the Leaf would have went to Richmond).

And it is still the same money for the 16A or the 30A at the end of the day. You might be able to trade another Leaf owner for an unmodified L1 EVSE, and you can for sure purchase a Nissan L1 EVSE for $900. If you plan to use the upgraded EVSE at some location in addition to your home, maybe that would be the way to go. I would be more inclined to have that in my trunk (or hatch) and the 30A at the house.

EVSE upgrade wil be offering a high-power upgrade version for the 2013 LEAF, Phil mentioned it elsewhere

Did Phil send this off to the UL for testing? I know that obtaining UL certification is expensive, tens of thousands of dollars, you need to send them several samples, which they destroy, and each sample cost Phil about a grand. I know Phil is building a safe unit, likely safer than the Blink EVSE based on some thermal imaging I've seen here. The botton line is, will your insurance company 100% for sure pay a claim if you have a fire while using the modified EVSE? Are you comfortable recommending something that is not UL listed for homeowner - layperson use? Maybe Phil's EVSE is UL listed, in that case I would have no problem at all with someone that carefully analyzes their situation, and believes that they will never or rarely need more than 4.8kW (for a 20A unit which will be on at least a 25A circuit)

 

[dgpcolorado]

At home I agree. In two years and 30,000 miles, there has been less than a half dozen times when I could have really used a 6.6Kw charger at home. Those where the times when we used the car extensively during the day, were now home, and would have liked to get enough charge to use it again later in the day... For opportunity charging away from home, where there is no QC option, it is a different story and 6.6Kw would be of real advantage.

This adds a little to the question. Does it get cold where you live? I mean like below freezing, for several months in the winter? You will find yourself wanting a 30A EVSE many times during those cold months, because you can pick up a couple miles charging a battery, or you can keep your car warm with a 3.8kW EVSE, but not both. In the winter months, we have charged at home before going out dozens of times, and every time, I wished I had a 6.6 kWh charger. Heck, we did did this just yesterday.

Another question. Are you somewhere that has L2 chargers everywhere? For some posters here, the answer is yes. For me, absolutely not. We have EVSE's at Nissan dealerships, and our house. If I want to go out after work (in the winter), I must plan to pick up a charge at the house. That is the only option besides thawing out the frozen solid ICE (I know, that's kind of a funny thing to read). I never wish I was limited to 3.3 kWh during those times, but I am, due to leasing a MY 2012 Leaf. If you could plug in somewhere else, you might brave leaving the house without enough range to complete your trip. We never do that, unless there is a solid charging plan in place (like L1 at the inlaws 45 miles away). For us. a 6.6kW charger is a game changer. We could pick up our grandson in Frankfort, and pick up enough range to get home at the Frankfort Nissan dealer during a quick lunch at the Waffle House. We could charge another hour at home, and take the grandson to the Bounce House in Richmond. This is exactly what we did last weekend, but we completed this trip in the 4Runner, because once you bolt in the child seat in the 4Runner, you don't want to move it to the Leaf (otherwise the Leaf would have went to Richmond).

And it is still the same money for the 16A or the 30A at the end of the day. You might be able to trade another Leaf owner for an unmodified L1 EVSE, and you can for sure purchase a Nissan L1 EVSE for $900. If you plan to use the upgraded EVSE at some location in addition to your home, maybe that would be the way to go. I would be more inclined to have that in my trunk (or hatch) and the 30A at the house.

You strike me as an unusual LEAF user yet you try to extrapolate your experience to everyone. My guess is that relatively few drivers come home on "empty" then immediately want to turn around and take another trip. For those few who do then, yes, a 30 Amp EVSE would be a good match for a 2013 LEAF with the faster charger option. For me, after doing a 65 mile trip, turning around to go out again just doesn't happen. And even if it did, the 18 miles and 1300 feet of elevation change to get to town and back would take less than an hour and a half at 240 Volts, 16 Amps with my upgraded EVSE. Not that my driving parameters are necessarily relevant to others, anymore than yours are.

No, I agree entirely with EVDRIVER that the number of people who genuinely need charging at home that is faster than 3.3 kW is small. If you do, you seem to be something of an outlier, not the norm, when it comes to LEAF drivers.

And, for the record: it gets plenty cold where I live, with snow and very large elevation changes every time I leave home. On Friday I spent six hours shoveling 14 inches of snow off my steep, curved 400 foot gravel driveway so I could get my cars out; I am not a fair-weather LEAF owner. And no, there are no public L2 charge stations at all where I live. Zero.

EVSE upgrade wil be offering a high-power upgrade version for the 2013 LEAF, Phil mentioned it elsewhere

Did Phil send this off to the UL for testing? I know that obtaining UL certification is expensive, tens of thousands of dollars, you need to send them several samples, which they destroy, and each sample cost Phil about a grand. I know Phil is building a safe unit, likely safer than the Blink EVSE based on some thermal imaging I've seen here. The botton line is, will your insurance company 100% for sure pay a claim if you have a fire while using the modified EVSE? Are you comfortable recommending something that is not UL listed for homeowner - layperson use? Maybe Phil's EVSE is UL listed, in that case I would have no problem at all with someone that carefully analyzes their situation, and believes that they will never or rarely need more than 4.8kWh.

This seems like FUD, plain and simple. I'll leave Phil to defend his work but I have been entirely pleased with my upgraded EVSE and have never used anything else at home, like many others here. It is rock solid and seems better built than many other EVSEs discussed here at MNL.

 

[kentuckyleaf]

This seems like FUD, plain and simple. I'll leave Phil to defend his work but I have been entirely pleased with my upgraded EVSE and have never used anything else at home, like many others here. It is rock solid and seems better built than many other EVSEs discussed here at MNL.

I never said Phil's upgraded unit wasn't anything less than wonderful. I would have absolutely no issues using it myself, and I would have no problems recommending its use to anyone that wants to pick up a quick charge at an RV park. I do have a problem recommending anything that is not UL listed to someone that doesn't fully understand the ramifications, and having them install it inside their home. This is why I asked, "Does Phil's upgrade come with UL certification?" That is a valid question, and if the answer is yes, I fully agree that a 4.8 kW charger could be all that most EV owners would need at their home. If the answer is no, I fully expect the homeowner to verify that this is not a problem with their insurance company before installing the modified unit.

Again, we need to move from recommending this and that to engineers that work with high voltage beam supplies, 500 kW Diesel generators, and 70 kW inductive output tubes every day. Engineers understand the ramifications of not having a UL listing. Perhaps, they have even sent someting to the UL for testing, spending all that money, for a reason. That reason is normally so it can be installed in a home or business and covered under insurance. An engineer understands the risks of using a non UL listed product in their home. Maybe an engineer mounts something on rock board instead of plywood just in case it catches fire. Maybe an engineer installs a smoke detector in the garage that is tied to the one in the bedroom, because they have caught things on fire before, and they understand that it could very well happen again.

Is anyone suggesting that is is perfectly fine to RECOMMEND a non UL listed product to a typical homeowner that will be used overnight while they and their family are asleep? If there is a fire, caused by any part of the EV charging system ie. panel wiring, the circuit breaker, the EV itself, and there is a non UL listed part in that chain, do you really believe that the insurance company (and their legal team) wouldn't do everything they could to fight paying that claim? Add to that, we are talking about a few hundred dollars difference at most between the modified 12A, 16A, or future planned 20A EVSE and the UL listed 30A unit. In my opinion, unless Phil's upgrade is sent to the UL and certified, I couldn't sign a quote recommending its use in a home, and if I'm not willing to sign that paper, I'm not comfortable recommending it on this forum.

 

[Herm]

Kentucky, does it make a difference that Phil's EVSE is not usually permanently mounted?.. it is a portable unit.

 

[QueenBee]

This seems like FUD, plain and simple. I'll leave Phil to defend his work but I have been entirely pleased with my upgraded EVSE and have never used anything else at home, like many others here. It is rock solid and seems better built than many other EVSEs discussed here at MNL.

I never said Phil's upgraded unit wasn't anything less than wonderful. I would have absolutely no issues using it myself, and I would have no problems recommending its use to anyone that wants to pick up a quick charge at an RV park. I do have a problem recommending anything that is not UL listed to someone that doesn't fully understand the ramifications, and having them install it inside their home. This is why I asked, "Does Phil's upgrade come with UL certification?" That is a valid question, and if the answer is yes, I fully agree that a 4.8 kW charger could be all that most EV owners would need at their home. If the answer is no, I fully expect the homeowner to verify that this is not a problem with their insurance company before installing the modified unit.

Again, we need to move from recommending this and that to engineers that work with high voltage beam supplies, 500 kW Diesel generators, and 70 kW inductive output tubes every day. Engineers understand the ramifications of not having a UL listing. Perhaps, they have even sent someting to the UL for testing, spending all that money, for a reason. That reason is normally so it can be installed in a home or business and covered under insurance. An engineer understands the risks of using a non UL listed product in their home. Maybe an engineer mounts something on rock board instead of plywood just in case it catches fire. Maybe an engineer installs a smoke detector in the garage that is tied to the one in the bedroom, because they have caught things on fire before, and they understand that it could very well happen again.

Is anyone suggesting that is is perfectly fine to RECOMMEND a non UL listed product to a typical homeowner that will be used overnight while they and their family are asleep? If there is a fire, caused by any part of the EV charging system ie. panel wiring, the circuit breaker, the EV itself, and there is a non UL listed part in that chain, do you really believe that the insurance company (and their legal team) wouldn't do everything they could to fight paying that claim? Add to that, we are talking about a few hundred dollars difference at most between the modified 12A, 16A, or future planned 20A EVSE and the UL listed 30A unit. In my opinion, unless Phil's upgrade is sent to the UL and certified, I couldn't sign a quote recommending its use in a home, and if I'm not willing to sign that paper, I'm not comfortable recommending it on this forum.

Do you own a home? If so do you have homeowners insurance? If so go grab your policy and find the exclusion for fires caused by non-UL listed appliances, non permitted electrical work, non inspected electrical work, electrical work that is not to code, and unattended cooking. Hint: good luck finding this exclusion because while I can't state for certain since I have not read YOUR policy but it's not there. So please stop spreading FUD.

EVSEUprade is not UL certified and I am suggesting that it is perfectly fine to recommend it. Certification does not make it any safer than it already was prior to certification. If you have concerns about the quality and/or safety feel free to bring up your issues but until please don't spread FUD.

I first heard TonyWilliams recommend it but I think every owner of an EV that parks in the garage should install a smoke detector in their garage (Assuming they no longer park an ICE in the garage).

 

[kentuckyleaf]

Now I'm confused. Are the above posts concluding that insurance would cover a fire involving the charging circuit if the circuit includes a non UL listed EVSE?

Are you saying that you would install non UL listed equipment if you operated an electrical business, and not be concerned that you will be liable?

If the unit is not UL listed, and the homeowner is aware of the ramifications, then sure, it is the homeowner's decision. If the homeowner is not aware, they need to be made aware.

The OP did not ask "which solution is cheapest, even if it might be outside electrical code" It asked which solution is best.

Where's the FUD?

 

[kentuckyleaf]

EVSEUprade is not UL certified and I am suggesting that it is perfectly fine to recommend it. Certification does not make it any safer than it already was prior to certification. If you have concerns about the quality and/or safety feel free to bring up your issues but until please don't spread FUD.

I first heard TonyWilliams recommend it but I think every owner of an EV that parks in the garage should install a smoke detector in their garage (Assuming they no longer park an ICE in the garage).

Agree, put a smoke detector in your garage regardless of the equipment you choose.

Agree, if you have concerns about non UL listed devices, feel free to bring this up with your insurance agent.

I have no issues with Phil's quality or safety, I never said it was unsafe. I believe Phil's quality exceeds most of the EVSE's on the market.

That said, who here is willing to back their recommendation to utilize ANYTHING non UL listed with their personal fortune, in case insurance denies a claim? Not me. Even if Phil's modification is the safest EVSE on the planet.

 

[QueenBee]

That said, who here is willing to back their recommendation to utilize ANYTHING non UL listed with their personal fortune, in case insurance denies a claim? Not me. Even if Phil's modification is the safest EVSE on the planet.

Please explain how this statement adds value to the conversation and is not just FUD? I can just as easily say: who here is willing to back their recommendation to utilize ANYTHING UL listed with their personal fortune, in case insurance denies a claim?

You also ignored my questions about your policy....

 

[kentuckyleaf]

That said, who here is willing to back their recommendation to utilize ANYTHING non UL listed with their personal fortune, in case insurance denies a claim? Not me. Even if Phil's modification is the safest EVSE on the planet.

Please explain how this statement adds value to the conversation and is not just FUD? I can just as easily say: who here is willing to back their recommendation to utilize ANYTHING UL listed with their personal fortune, in case insurance denies a claim?

You also ignored my questions about your policy....

I often specify UL (orUR) listed fixtures and components, and these recommendations are always backed by my employment (bad engineering practices = short engineering career). So, yes, I do place my personal fortune at risk, and I don't do that by recommending something that hasn't passed UL listing. If a UL listed part is involved in an insurance claim, it is covered by insurance. So no, I'm not really risking my personal fortune, and that's the point, isn't it?

As far as a homeowner, I am a homeowner. I'm sure you are correct about the policy, which is why I don't purchase and install non UL listed appliances. I wouldn't ever dream of cooking unattended, I like permits and inspections, it makes it easier to sell the home, and I suggest that most typical homeowners utilize 100% UL listed appliances by default. Can you even purchase a non UL listed appliance? and if you did from a major retailer, wouldn't they be partially accountable (unless you sign a waiver) I don't understand your point at all. Electrons I get, people make no sense at all.

 

[kentuckyleaf]

One last thing...

I have an electrician and crew arriving at my facility early tomorrow to install a 45 kVA UPS for our E911 upgrade. We need to provide seismic stabilization, which is normally an odd idea in Kentucky, but we had a 4.3 earthquake a few months ago. The new E911 requirements are off the chart! The new transformer (we use 480V 3 phase, the E911 facilities need single phase 120, 240) was installed above the old transformer on unistrut, I doubt that it passes the seismic requirements. I really don't have the desire to argue this point, do whatever pleases you. It's not my problem. Sure you can save a few hundred bucks. Great. This is why people think it is insane to own an EV. We can't make it easy for normal people to understand. Too many years of Megawatt RF killing our brain cells.


I just checked in to see if Phil had responded to this thread. I figure that he would know the answers to the insurance question and lack of NRTL certs, or at least be able to point us in the right direction. Does anyone else have a solid answer to the insurance question, or are we going to continue calling me a FUDder? Maybe the question has been answered elsewhere, I'll try to do a search of the forum in the near future, as well as dig out my own insurance policy.

Over and out.

 

[planet4ever]

Or the 6.6kW charger might be more efficient and be content with 7.2kW (which is 240V@30A) to put 6.6kW into the battery.

Goot point. I think people get worked up is because people get worked up. Is it a 6kW charger like I see all over this forum, or is it 6.6kW like the Nissan website states? My guess is Nissan is correct and we will find that it is 6.6kW into the battery at 240 volts, just like Nissan was correct that it is 3.3kW into the battery at 240 volts.

Sorry, but you are both misinformed. Here is what Nissan says in their 2013 Nissan LEAF Press Kit. (Click on the Specs tab to see it.)

6.6 kW onboard charger (6.0 kW output)

I know it is a small point, but comparing 3.3 kW to 6.6 kW is apples to oranges. The correct comparison with the 2011/2012 charger is 3.3 to 6.0 or 3.8 to 6.6. (Note that the new charger appears to be significantly more efficient.)

Ray

 

[davewill]

That said, who here is willing to back their recommendation to utilize ANYTHING non UL listed with their personal fortune, in case insurance denies a claim? Not me. Even if Phil's modification is the safest EVSE on the planet.

Your concern is duly noted.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I really don't know why folks get worked up over some of this stuff. I will bet good money that it will be 30 amps, pure and simple. That's 6.6kW, and at 90% efficiency about 6kW into the battery. Not rocket science guys, and it doesn't make Nissan "wrong". They just haven't defined what 6.6kW means.

The 3.3kW charger draws 3.7kW from the grid and dumps 3.3kW into the battery. I'd wager a guess that the 6.6kW charger will pull 7.4kW from the grid (if available) and dump 6.6kW into the battery.

Or the 6.6kW charger might be more efficient and be content with 7.2kW (which is 240V@30A) to put 6.6kW into the battery.

You're right... I misquoted 240 volts * 30 amps as 6.6kW, when it is obviously 7.2kW.

Thanks.