Buying a 2014 LEAF - please help me assess my LEAF SPY results

[Aardvark]

Please see updated message below

 

[Aardvark]

Update - I managed to get my hands on an OBDII adaptor.. AND IT WORKED!

I'd really appreciate comments on the Leaf Spy screenshots in the file below:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Aopkn3DAaPS9N3fAhrY7YMnQHud7lWlf?usp=sharing@Turbo3, thanks for the great app!

More context on the car...
This is the link to the online advert:
https://www.lithiafordboise.com/use...oise-ID-f2774df30a0e0a940703aba763ba882d.htm#And this is the CarFax:
https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHisto...fjuPh1jS0V9FdSbWeL1XmI3sH0pzrh-oT6IrbLEtY_0ykOne big question about the CarFax is how little maintenance has been done on the car.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts/feedback on this car. I'm hoping to buy it tomorrow.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Welcome. The photo of the dash display shows 10 capacity bars, meaning a Summer range of roughly 50-60 miles. Since this is the S trim level there is no heat pump, so assume a Winter range of 2/3 to as little as half that.* Is this adequate for your needs?

( The LeafSpy shots don't seem to include the screen with capacity ("SOH") but the voltage histogram shows a well balanced battery pack...

* At temperatures below about 20F the Leafs with no heat pump get about the same range as those with it, because the heat pump doesn't provide a noticeable amount of heat at those temps. In that case the range would still be as little as 20-25 miles.

 

[WetEV]

SOH is 74%.
First image.

 

[Aardvark]

Thanks for the reply!
This car is for my daily commute and nothing else. The commute is 35 miles round trip.
From what I have read your summer prediction seems high and your winter prediction seems low, but I am not expert, and I assume YMMV.
I didn't see a screen dedicated to SOH, but the voltage histogram does say SOH=74.17% above the histogram. Assuming the SOH is 74%, does that change your diagnosis?

 

[LeftieBiker]

When I commented this morning, that image wasn't loading for me properly.
74% would put the range at the lower end of what I guessed not knowing it. Mileage does indeed vary widely, as some people drive fast, some slow, some with little no heat, and some with sauna-like heat.

 

[Aardvark]

Hey everybody, thanks for the replies.

I found another car and I ran Leaf Spy on it. The results are quite confusing. The SOH is better than the car in my first post, but for some reason all the bars is the chart are red. I can't understand why though - how can the SOH be better, but all of teh cells are worse? I'll be looking into the Leaf Spy docs, but I'd appreciate thoughts, comments, insights, guidance, etc.

I am hoping to buy one of these cars by Monday.

 

[Aardvark]

OKay - I just read the docs and it seems that red is a "bleeder load" to balance the cell with the others. So it seems like the red coloring is not a big deal.

It would be great to hear this from somebody with more knowledge and expereince than me. Is it obvious that the second car has a better battery than the first? Or are there other aspects to consider?
For more on the second car, see here for advert.

The second car is higher trim (SV instead of V), one year older and has quite a bit more miles... But who cares about that - I just want good range.

 

[keith746]

I have a 2013 Leaf in Seattle area. I searched Leafs for 6 months in 2021 and found only 1 with 10 bars . 1 other with 9 bars. All the others were 8 or less. I pounced on the 10 bar Leaf immediately. It had SOH of 81% then and is 77% now (2 years later, still 10 bars). So......... my experience is the car with the 78% SOH will give you 2 years of driving/ charging before it degrades to the 74% SOH (likely 9 bars) of the other car.
The Leaf with 10 bars is a RARE find.
I agree nothing matters as much as battery health.
I get 45 miles range without going below 25% battery (am chicken to test to near zero!). However, running the heater will reduce that. I haven't tested how much but it seems less than I expected.
The red bars are actively "balancing". Given time they will turn blue. A good explanation is buried under the "about" tab of the LEAFSPY menu.

 

[Aardvark]

Thanks @keith746 , glad to hear that I am on the right page here.

I am buying this car off of Facebook. I've never done that before. Ady advice for buying a car direct from a person?
Also - the guy is asking for $6k. The car has quite a bit of cosmetic damage (superficial scratches and dings, and the uphostery has a few stains). Does $6k seem excessive? Or does that seem like the rights ballpark?

 

[dsevier]

Hi, I saw you posted an ad from a dealership in Boise. I live in Boise and bought same year, model, mileage and color for $7900 in Feb '23. Mine had 11 bars on batt health but expect it to fall to 10 shortly as I'm at 79% SOH. You mentioned you could not find much in maintenance records but there is relatively little to do. Change gear oil at 60k. Change brake fluid if unsure of last change. Change cabin air filter. I probably am missing something. Anyway, we've been quite happy with ours. Happier with the 30% fed tax credit on used EVs this year.

 

[themr23]

Drive them until down to 20%, checking leafspy mV and the cell chat once you are down below say 40%.
See if either one has a cell or group that drops lower faster than the rest.
Your range will be limited by them.
If the lowest cells don't drop too low, don't be afraid to drive to 10% or less. Use leafspy as your instrumentation. As long as you have 10+ GIDs and a cell isn't bad you can use full throttle if you wish. Just make sure you are close to the seller.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I wrote this before seeing OP's update. Good luck... but for posterity I will post the below...

If you have 11 out of 12 on a 9 yo LEAF that is almost too good to be true. However if it is true you have a good battery pack.... LEAF SPY is pretty easy. You have to buy a WiFi OBDII dongle... but the right one. You have to throw a few bucks at the App developer. That is it. I don't know if there is some way to fake the battery reserve indicator on the dash.... but yes LEAF SPY would be nice. You will be looking for the individual cell voltage. They should not be below average by too much. What is that? I don't know but you will know it when you see it. Again 11 bars chance of having dead cell or cells is low... provided the dash indicator is right. Like I said I am suspicious.. How many miles?

I bought my early 2015 end of 2017 (it was 3 yrs old) forget the mileage but lets say low mid 20K, and 12 bars... it went to 11 pretty quick.. Now after owning 6 yrs (9 total age) I have 10 bars and on a good day 80 mi indicated range. I have not used my LEAF SPY in over a year. I did mess with it for new tires a two yrs ago. I now have about 43K miles. As a second car I do about 3K to 3.5K miles a year. Great for going to the store...

Most of my trips are 18 to 20 miles round trp. So 80 mile range (real 60 miles with cold weather and having some reserve when I get home) is enough. It will start to be not practical when it gets to 50 miles (30 usable with reserve). Assuming a linear decline in range I have another 9 years of use? At that point it will be 18 yrs old and about 80K miles. Not great but at that point sell it cheap or part it out. If there is some cheap replacement for the drive battery I might consider it. The BODY and interior is holding up nice. I can see it going way more than 18 years.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Welcome. The photo of the dash display shows 10 capacity bars, meaning a Summer range of roughly 50-60 miles. Since this is the S trim level there is no heat pump, so assume a Winter range of 2/3 to as little as half that.* Is this adequate for your needs?

( The LeafSpy shots don't seem to include the screen with capacity ("SOH") but the voltage histogram shows a well balanced battery pack...

* At temperatures below about 20F the Leafs with no heat pump get about the same range as those with it, because the heat pump doesn't provide a noticeable amount of heat at those temps. In that case the range would still be as little as 20-25 miles.

You and other post really low mile ranges with 10 bars.... I have 10 bars on my 2015 LEAF SV. I get 80 miles block range. In winter I lose about 10 miles may be a bit more? Now winter is below 60F but more than 32F. No sub zero.

I find SOC is pretty proportional to range. New these LEAF's got 100 - 110 miles (24Kw battery). So if you have 75% SOC you should get 75 miles (ball park), With that said I am not jamming down Interstate at 75 mph. Yep your millage will go down fast on freeway. Winter yes lose more..... However in moderate cool temps, moderate speeds, conservative acceleration and coasting to stops (Brake Re-gen) as much as you can, 4.5 mi/kw is not hard to do. I have got over 5. The problem with the trip computer is when you turn car off you lose your Avg miles pre KW... (Edit: you don't lose average Mi/Kw you lose your "trees". I forgot but I think I got 3 or 4 full trees a few times).

Of course the "guess-O-meter" miles remain, miles per KW are estimates. Push comes to shove when you get into tortoise mode is bottom line. However that happened ONCE in 6 years. I avoid going below 20%. However low teens % is not uncommon. On occasion I get to ----- but once it is there I am parking at home. Again this is by accident. In the last 2 years I started driving to a destination 32 miles one way. I have several ways to go, one is mostly highway or freeway. The other is other is surface or county road with no more than 55 mph speed limit. I take the surface which does not take much longer. Bottom line I am getting home now with low % battery. If I do it right I end up getting home with say 18%. That is as low as I want.

Once the battery loses more range this destination will be out. However I can charge on 110V at destination, but frankly that is slow charge. In an hour or two I add 10 miles. 110v x 15a is 1.65KW... at that rate, 1 hour is about 6.6 miles. Assume my battery capacity is 24Kw x 80% about 19KW... That 110 charger would take 10 hours if charging form 0% to 100%.

My home charger is a Clipper Creek 4.6 KW (my car has all the bells and higher 6.6KW level 2 or direct DC). I got the charger cheap and wired it myself. Works great. I do 2.5 hour chargers, or add about 11Kw or about 57%. This works since I try and charge with between 20% to 30% remaining. Again try and not go over 80-85%.

I also charge late at night when ambient temps are cooler in summer. I think it is common knowledge or consensus over charging (100%) and draining (well below 20%) all the time hastens the death of battery pack. Hot ambient temps also are bad, but not much you can do about that. You can drive slower, speed and acceleration. I also may charge to under 80% for local driving or STEP charge. Charge a little now. Charge a little later. I don't worry about it or fret but I try. When I got to places that stretches' my round trip range (32 miles one way, 68 miles RT).

At 9 years I plan on another 9 years of practical usefulness. With that said my state penalizes me on registration for having EV yearly (fuel tax Rev). This is unfair because the EV tax is way more than my other car a diesel by factor X3. In general all taxes and services are going up and quality of life lower, aka crime. So the luxury of having a second car (LEAF is second car) may need to go. It does save on fuel, love charging at home and not having to go to STOP N ROBBERY N SHOOT corner gas stations.... The discount ones are usually packed chaos. However my other car is a VW Diesel TDI Sportwagen, gets 50 mpg and has 700 mile range. So fill ups are few and far between. The down side of Turbo Diesel is not great for short runs to the store. They take 10 mins to warm up.

I use m VW TDI 2.0L diesel for long trips. I drive it about the same as the LEAF, 3K to 4K miles a year. The VW handles well and diesel has tons of torque from idle, as much or more than LEAF, but the VW hold and builds power longer. The boring obvious choice for one vehicle that gets good mileage would be a Prius. Hybrid I think makes more sense than pure EV, at least for one car. If you can't get in a car and go indefinitely with short stops (5-10 min max) and get "charged" or refueled easily everywhere 24/7/365, then it is not practical for cross country travel in my OPINION. Sure an EV can do it, but it is a hassle and adds time to trip. Of course PAYING for charging on road cost as much as GAS or DIESEL... So saving money? No. Saving the planet? No.

So if I had to have ONE car a Prius might be it. However the VW TDI Sportwagen has 69 cu ft storage in back with flat floor when back seats are folded down. Great for camping gear and on the road you can stretch out in back for nap (5'7" length). Plus I put a hidden European hitch to pull a folding 6 x 4 utility trailer, which is my "truck". I can't see a hitch on a Prius. (I am sure it has been done). My max trailer load total is under 1800lbs (0.9 ton). Normally say a yard of dirt which is much less than max trailer gross. The VW pulls it no problem. I would not tow a travel trailer at least long distance with it but could (a small one). I can NOT see Prius being fun to drive either, much less tow a ton. So right now the VW Diesel and LEAF fits my adventure long distance travel needs perfect and the LEAF my local grocery getter.

 

[Stanton]

The second car is higher trim (SV instead of V), one year older and has quite a bit more miles... But who cares about that - I just want good range.

What matters is the second car has a higher AHr reading (51 vs 48)...so the second battery pack has more capacity at this time. Both packs seem to be well balanced with no "weak" cells.
My opinion: I would never get the "S" trim. In addition, you can add OVMS to these Gen1 Leafs (to replace the TCU in the SV/SL); search the forum for my name+OVMS for more info.
Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

[Aardvark]

@Stanton I just read up a little about the OVMS conversion. I don't have time to go deep right now (will check in again tonight), but it seems that the bottom line is that it would cost about $500 to update the car's modem to 4G which would allow me to pre-heat the car each morning before work while it is plugged in - which would mean that I arrive to a nice warm car WITH A FULL BATTERY?!!
Could you please confirm that I am understanding correctly? This would be a game changer.

It seems that althoguh the second car looks more run down (ugly upholstery, scratches, dings, more miles, older, etc.) it is the better option in terms of battery health and functionality (cruise control and OVMS update).
... So I think I will be buying option number 2...

Thanks for all the helpful insights everybody!

 

[IAMTHESTIG]

I live in Meridian and bought a ‘14 in ‘19 then sold it just over a year ago because I needed more range and didn’t have the money to just buy a second car. Wish I had been able to keep it but it was a good experience. Mine had 84% SOH when I got it and then 77 when I sold it two years later. I was very nice to it, rarely charged it over 80% but I think the somewhat hot summer brought it down some. I have a 22mi RT to work on Nampa and it was perfect for that and grocery run later in the day. In the winter though if I wanted to go somewhere else I’d have to charge it up some.

If you will end up using all the range of this thing daily I would get a newer one with larger battery. I think it is safe to only use 50-75% range daily, but taking it to the edge every day is risky. You need to have some buffer in case you need to go somewhere from work or something extra on the way. I only charged to 70-80% nightly and usually had about 40-50% when I got home. I felt comfortable with that. I few times I had it down to 10% or so with extra driving and I didn’t like the anxiety.

As for having it heat up the cabin in the morning while still charging, yes it does that but you may not necessarily still have the battery it was at. Sometimes it needs a little more juice than your 15A outlet in the garage will provide. Now if you have a 30A or larger then it won’t be a problem at all. I never bothered with the 4G upgrade so I didn’t have mine connected to the Nissan app, I just got up in the morning and started it 10m before leaving to get it warmed up. I also used the charging timer so when I plugged it in after work it didn’t actually start charging until midnight. Then when I was ready to leave about 715a the battery was charging and at about 75-80%. I charged it a little more in the winter to compensate for the cold weather.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

@Stanton I just read up a little about the OVMS conversion. I don't have time to go deep right now (will check in again tonight), but it seems that the bottom line is that it would cost about $500 to update the car's modem to 4G which would allow me to pre-heat the car each morning before work while it is plugged in - which would mean that I arrive to a nice warm car WITH A FULL BATTERY?!!
Could you please confirm that I am understanding correctly? This would be a game changer.

It seems that althoguh the second car looks more run down (ugly upholstery, scratches, dings, more miles, older, etc.) it is the better option in terms of battery health and functionality (cruise control and OVMS update).
... So I think I will be buying option number 2...

Thanks for all the helpful insights everybody!

That is exciting news.... I miss the App to see charge status, charging or not, turn on systems.... It was nice. It was a little glitchy but it worked.

 

[keith746]

@Stanton I just read up a little about the OVMS conversion. I don't have time to go deep right now (will check in again tonight), but it seems that the bottom line is that it would cost about $500 to update the car's modem to 4G which would allow me to pre-heat the car each morning before work while it is plugged in - which would mean that I arrive to a nice warm car WITH A FULL BATTERY?!!
Could you please confirm that I am understanding correctly? This would be a game changer.

It seems that althoguh the second car looks more run down (ugly upholstery, scratches, dings, more miles, older, etc.) it is the better option in terms of battery health and functionality (cruise control and OVMS update).
... So I think I will be buying option number 2...

Thanks for all the helpful insights everybody!

Good choice. Here's more info on your commute. My LEAFSPY tells me my cabin heater uses 1500 watts (on average). I estimate your commute to take about 1 hour round trip. That is 1500 watt-hours (or 1.5 KWH). I get easily 3.5 miles per KWH. Therefore, running your heater will cost you about 5 miles of range for your round trip. 1.5 KWH X 3.5 MI/KWH = 5.25 Miles.
The seat heater and steering wheel heater will add a little more, but I find them unnecessary after the cabin warms.
Pre-heating the car while it is still charging in the morning is a great idea and will reduce the total heat load taken from the battery (load will be greater than 1500 watts while warming up).
It is best for battery life to limit charge level to 80% but you might need more to complete your commute without "anxiety". When I plan a "longer" trip, I charge to 90-95% for Cushion. It will be a godsend if you can charge, even a little, at work. Level 2 (J1772) even for a couple hours will take the pressure off.
Good luck!

 

[Stanton]

@Stanton I just read up a little about the OVMS conversion. I don't have time to go deep right now (will check in again tonight), but it seems that the bottom line is that it would cost about $500 to update the car's modem to 4G which would allow me to pre-heat the car each morning before work while it is plugged in - which would mean that I arrive to a nice warm car WITH A FULL BATTERY?!!
Could you please confirm that I am understanding correctly? This would be a game changer.

You are on the right track...but way off on the cost (should be almost half that). You may need to do a bit of modification for remote heat depending on the Leaf version you get, but it's covered in the Nissan Leaf section for OVMS and mentioned in my thread on this forum.
Here's a link to the NA source for those kits when you're ready (OVMS - Open Vehicle Monitoring System | Medlock & Sons).