Buy a LEAF -- and sell it in 18 months?

[solarchargeddriver]

I'm really eager to buy a LEAF and power it with our 5.59 kW home solar. Trouble is, there's a good chance I'll be working in Europe for a year, starting in the fall of 2013.

You might say, just wait to buy a LEAF then.

Trouble is, we're running two gas clunkers, a '92 Integra (157,000 miles) and a '94 Camry (281,000 miles) in our household and they've both suddenly decided to give us a hard time. After no real troubles for years, we've had to have each towed twice in the past three months -- and my wife's had it, believe me.

She wants a reliable car -- and i can't blame her, although I have a strong feeling that after several expensive repairs (fuel injectors, distributor, etc. on the Integra, it's going to run at least a year before having to be towed again; not so sure about the Camry, though).

I'd like to think we could get a LEAF, run it for 18 months, and sell it (we can't afford to cover payments while we're in Europe for a year and it sits in our garage in the U.S.) and do okay. But that's probably wishful thinking (we are sitting on 7,000 banked kWh of solar generated electricity, or between $3,000 and $4,000 worth of gasoline replacement).

My wife's thinking a 1 to 3-year-old gas stinker that we buy, then sell in 18 months. Sigh, she's probably right...

What do others think -- what's our best option here?

I've ruminated over a bunch of different options in a blog entry -- http://solarchargeddriving.com/editors-blog/on-evs-a-phevs/889-should-we-buy-a-new-ev-and-sell-it-in-18-months.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- but that's too long to post here.

Thank you for any advice/ideas you have.

 

[mitch672]

I think your best bet might be a lease for 36 months, then try and sell the remaining lease months, worst case you will owe 18 additional payments, before the car has to be turned in. Total liability is about $15K or so for the 36 months.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Well if you need encouragement to do what you already want to do, then I encourage you to go for it If you can put some cash down maybe you can do a two year lease, we almost did. Maybe you could advertise to take over a Lease from someone in your area? If you buy, there is of course the wild card as to the resale value. You might be able to get a deal on a used 2011 that could make the finances work and just keep it while you are gone. All that banked electricity certainly does sweeten the pot! good luck figuring it out! We hope to go solar in the next year or so!!!

 

[smkettner]

Ship the LEAF to Europe when you go. Let the company relocation pay for it

Don't forget gas in Europe is a bit more $$$ than here. How long do you expect to pay?

 

[solarchargeddriver]

I think your best bet might be a lease for 36 months, then try and sell the remaining lease months, worst case you will owe 18 additional payments, before the car has to be turned in. Total liability is about $15K or so for the 36 months.

Sorry to be so dense, but what do you mean by "sell the remaining lease months"? To whom, and how?

Thank you.

 

[cwerdna]

Maybe you could advertise to take over a Lease from someone in your area?

Problem is that for the original "owner" of the lease, it's risky for them. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6248&p=161834&hilit=guarantor#p161834" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as to why...

Total liability is about $15K or so for the 36 months.

That's a pretty big outlay. $15K is a boatload of money to lose for keeping a car for 18 months. One can buy a new econobox for that kind of money and its value isn't $0 at the end. Heck (not that this is a great car), per http://www.nissanusa.com/versa/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, a new Nissan Versa starts at $10,990.

I think the OP is best off buying a 2-3 year old or even older reliable regular car and selling it at the end. The older it is, the cheaper the outlay and the less value it'll lose over time. Stay away from models or brands that don't hold their value well.

Starting points:
http://pressroom.consumerreports.org/pressroom/2011/02/consumer-reports-used-car-reliability-survey-finds-some-used-cars-have-fewer-problems-than-new-models.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://pressroom.consumerreports.org/pressroom/2009/02/consumer-reports-names-the-most-reliable-used-cars.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/cr-recommended/best-and-worst-used-cars/overview/best-and-worst-used-cars.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/cr-recommended/best-used-vehicles-under-20000/overview/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here was a story of an old roommate of that I posted at http://my350z.com/forum/1681784-post22.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

One of my old roommates when I was liiving in WA bought a used 91 Geo Prizm automatic (close cousin of the Corolla) back around this time in 2002 w/124K miles for $800. He only needed it for a commute to work that was <2.5 miles each way and short drives around town. It also only needed to last him ~3 months as he had to go home to Singapore after his internship ended. I did notice it had a torn CV boot at the time of purchase. Well, it lasted him and he sold it for $750! NOT bad!

 

[smkettner]

$15K is a boatload of money to lose for keeping a car for 18 months.

You can ship it both ways for less.

 

[thankyouOB]

listing factors in the decision:
--wife's desire X how deep that conviction is = do what she proposes or not
--how likely is she to be pissed off?
--does she have a job lined up in Europe too to reduce the cost impact?
--how much will you get paid?
--does the borg pay to move your goods to europe and a car, too?
--how likely is the transfer?
--of course, nothing really happens the way you think it will happen
--it is awfully hard to factor in the resale value of an EV; they could be almost worthless except to forum members and their kind, or with a high gasoline price, they could be very valuable.
moreover
--i like the idea just posted of deciding to buy the 3-year-old car just out of lease.

but none of what you proposed provides key facts for us such as how much you make/will make and what your worth is so we can value the loss of 5k-10k or so in the transaction.
but we know you have solar, so you cant be poor.
and we know that you have really old cars, so you must be not rich.
but we really dont know your age, wealth, family size, aspirations, whether you have kids who need to go to college and, as a result, asking us this question is mostly bogus, if you are not ready to provide some basic facts.
YMMV.

 

[garygid]

Random Thoughts:

Apparently you HAVE a job, so that is better off than many.

What country will you be in?
That could greatly influence any decision to take the LEAF with you.

For the year, you could "loan/rent" the LEAF to a trusted friend here?
Gently used is probably better than sitting idle for a year.

 

[Ready2plugin]

Love my LEAF so this is hard to type, but I would wait. If you're pretty sure you will not be here to enjoy the car, you would be letting it sit while it loses value. I would get a used reliable car that is already depreciated....to get you by until you leave. Sell it before you go. Therefore no registration, storage, interest...etc..... Maybe you'll come back to see a 150+ range LEAF option in a couple years....you never know!

 

[keydiver]

I would think that the depreciation hit would make this too great a loss. Used Leafs seem to be barely bringing $20,000, if I recall. I would probably rather consider your wife's idea, and pick up a good used Honda or Prius. You will probably be able to sell it in 18 months for only a couple thousand less if you shop well.

 

[leafedbehind]

If used LEAFs are only bringing $20,000, then buy a used one, and sell it in 18 months! Do you live in CA? If so you get another $2500 off, or $10K total off the price. If you get a 2011 orphan, that's not too far off $20,000.

 

[leafedbehind]

Used LEAFs on Yahoo! are going for $28K to $35K, FWIW. Better off buying new. Where did you see used ones going for $20K?

 

[solarchargeddriver]

Very much appreciate all the feedback

Stupid question: You don't get the $7,500 tax credit or any state tax credits when you buy a used EV -- or do you?

(I'm in Colorado, BTW -- a couple people have asked if I'm in California)

Cheers.

 

[leafedbehind]

No -- no tax credit if you buy used. The car should already have gotten the credit, and therefore the used Leaf prices (IMHO) should assume an original purchase price of $7500 under MSRP (at least).

 

[cwerdna]

No -- no tax credit if you buy used. The car should already have gotten the credit, and therefore the used Leaf prices (IMHO) should assume an original purchase price of $7500 under MSRP (at least).

Yep. Also, we in CA were eligible for a $5000 CVRP, now $2500.

Some of the asking prices I'd seen (from dealers, mostly) on used Leafs are absurd, in light of the above.

 

[keydiver]

Used LEAFs on Yahoo! are going for $28K to $35K, FWIW. Better off buying new. Where did you see used ones going for $20K?

I'm just going by this post:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6394&start=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The California market is a bit more saturated that most, I would guess, and most buyers have already taken advantage of $10,000 worth of rebates. Also remember that I was talking about a straight sell, vs the retail prices you see on Yahoo or eBay, etc. You would have to be crazy to pay $35k for a used Leaf, IMO.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I'd assume that the car's value in each state will be related to what incentives the original buyer was able to get. An original CA buyer who potentially got more than $12.5 K in rebates would be selling for $20K with essentially zero loss. In other states it's a whole other ball game. Also, don't forget that not everyone who wants one of these cars qualifies for the federal tax credit which could cause them to be willing to pay a more for a used one.

Used LEAFs on Yahoo! are going for $28K to $35K, FWIW. Better off buying new. Where did you see used ones going for $20K?

I'm just going by this post:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6394&start=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The California market is a bit more saturated that most, I would guess, and most buyers have already taken advantage of $10,000 worth of rebates. Also remember that I was talking about a straight sell, vs the retail prices you see on Yahoo or eBay, etc. You would have to be crazy to pay $35k for a used Leaf, IMO.

 

[cwerdna]

I'd assume that the car's value in each state will be related to what incentives the original buyer was able to get. An original CA buyer who potentially got more than $12.5 K in rebates would be selling for $20K with essentially zero loss. In other states it's a whole other ball game. Also, don't forget that not everyone who wants one of these cars qualifies for the federal tax credit which could cause them to be willing to pay a more for a used one.

Essentially zero loss? What about the sales tax on the up front cost? We don't get any sales tax exemption in CA. MSRP on the '12 Leaf SV is now $35,200 + $820 dest charge + tax, title, fees... Sure you can probably get maybe $1 or $2K taken off, but there's still sales tax.

As for someone who wants one but doesn't qualify for the Federal tax credit, how many of those people have enough cash on hand to pay for that or are willing to take out a used car loan (usually at a higher interest rate than new)? They'd also be buying w/the knowledge that there's no battery capacity warranty, hence why many are leasing a Leaf.

I just do wonder how large the used Leaf market is... To me, many people who want one (in states where it's available) already have them or would just go straight for a new one at a dealer, unless there's some huge savings to be had by buying used, which there can be esp. if a car's gone thru 2 to 3+ years of depreciation...

 

[thankyouOB]

I'd assume that the car's value in each state will be related to what incentives the original buyer was able to get. An original CA buyer who potentially got more than $12.5 K in rebates would be selling for $20K with essentially zero loss. In other states it's a whole other ball game. Also, don't forget that not everyone who wants one of these cars qualifies for the federal tax credit which could cause them to be willing to pay a more for a used one.

Essentially zero loss? What about the sales tax on the up front cost? We don't get any sales tax exemption in CA. MSRP on the '12 Leaf SV is now $35,200 + $820 dest charge + tax, title, fees... Sure you can probably get maybe $1 or $2K taken off, but there's still sales tax.

As for someone who wants one but doesn't qualify for the Federal tax credit, how many of those people have enough cash on hand to pay for that or are willing to take out a used car loan (usually at a higher interest rate than new)? They'd also be buying w/the knowledge that there's no battery capacity warranty, hence why many are leasing a Leaf.

here is a wrinkle most are ignoring in terms of added cost reduction: sales tax on autos is deductible on federal taxes PLUS whatever is your table-rate sales tax based on income.
of course the wise person knows that you get to choose EITHER sales tax or property tax in that year, so gang your property tax in the years around purchase of the car.
For many people in the 25% bracket, that is another 1k+ saved.