Boosting Range Confidence with a Leaf REX (Range Extender)

[braebyrn]

First the questions:
1. What would you pay to boost the range in your Leaf lets say by double?
2. What would be your fuel of choice? Gasoline, CNG, Propane, Diesel?
3. How many total units do you think would sell?
4. Where would it be best located on the vehicle?
5. How many kW would it need to produce?
6. Should it be a shop install or a owner install?

I would like to see a range extender for the Leaf sooner than later. There are several car makers that have made prototypes for their EV's like the latest Mazda http://www.themotorreport.com.au/57895/mazda2-range-extender-prototype-revealed-with-rotary-power with the Mazda2. I also saw the BMW e-CarE46 150kW-25kW REX http://www.evdrive.com/prototypes/

After talking to a local EV company, they suggested that I get the questions answered first.

My answers:
1. I would pay between $2500 and $3500
2. Gasoline
3. ?
4. cargo compartment or under rear aero cover.
5. 20-25kW
6. Owner

Am I alone in this or is there a need for a Range Extender on the Leaf? If you leased a Leaf, would you make/buy one? Would this need to be removable? How would you fill the fuel? Insurance requirements? Lots of thoughts......

 

[essaunders]

I'd like a Rex for my leaf.

1. It would need to be less that $4000. the 2.5k to 3.5k range would be nice.
2. gas is probably most logical, but propane/CNG would be nice. how about tri fuel (or is that asking too much)?
3. not as many units as you might hope.
4. under the rear deck were the spare should have been
5. enough kw to sustain 65mph on level, maybe 20-25 (I haven't done the math)
6. owner installed, but realistically, a shop would be needed.

additional: it would need to serve, either by itself and/or in conjunction with the leaf battery, as a emergency house power source

 

[braebyrn]

I'd like a Rex for my leaf.
additional: it would need to serve, either by itself and/or in conjunction with the leaf batter, as a emergency house power source

Good point!

 

[LeftieBiker]

I'd prefer a second battery module, and would accept a 50% extension. Since I lease, that would be worth another $50 a month. If it had to be ICE, then LPG is the only fuel I'd want. I second (third?) the motion that it be able to provide home power as well.

 

[joewaters]

First the questions:
1. What would you pay to boost the range in your Leaf lets say by double?
By double, do you mean something that can be refueled at a gas station, or a battery that needs EVSE station time?
My vote would be about $7500 for true 200% range before refuel including added weight, inefficiencies.
2. What would be your fuel of choice? Gasoline, CNG, Propane, Diesel?
Lithium Polymer/battery/maybe fuel cell. I didn't buy a Volt, did I?
3. How many total units do you think would sell?
Less than 5% of the total number of sub 100 mile EV market saturation. Maybe in the neighborhood of 1000 units if it catches on.
4. Where would it be best located on the vehicle?
trunk deck above/below maybe cut out the floor and lower it to fit REX?
5. How many kW would it need to produce?
I'd guess in the neighborhood of 25kwh at a rating of 4miles/kwh with horsepower output around 22 to support 18kw of power supplement.
6. Should it be a shop install or a owner install?
Intertied to HV lines=Shop or experienced electrical tech. Supplemental to primary drive system=depends on complexity
I would be very interested if it were a seamless integration, i.e. second 21kwh Leaf battery pack tied through a set of relays to take over after primary battery depletes to 20% with automatic switching and charge from DCQC or J1772 charge port.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I'd like one that mounts on some sort of a hitch off the back of the car. Make it small and light enough that the owner can install it for long trips. For normal commute, remove it and store it somewhere. No need to carry the weight when you don't need it. Would be nice to also be able to use it to power a house during power outage. No requirement to have the car for that use.

Mounting external makes it
- Easier to mount unmount.
- Quieter when running.
- Easier to refuel. Otherwise you have to figure out how to route fuel line.
- Probably less effect on crash test results.

I'd like one similar to what Mazda has discussed. A 600cc small engine, small gas tank. Optimized for a certain RPM and power output.

I'd only use it for long trips on the highway so it would be important to be able to generate enough power to be able to propel the LEAF at 65-70mph on flat terrain. Can use the battery as a buffer, let it charge the battery when going slower or stopped, can use more power than it can generate when going up hills or for faster stinks. 20-25kw sounds reasonable.
$4k about the upper limit.

 

[braebyrn]

First the questions:
1. What would you pay to boost the range in your Leaf lets say by double?
By double, do you mean something that can be refueled at a gas station, or a battery that needs EVSE station time?

Maybe double is not far enough? For now, a gas station, propane, cng, diesel low emission operated motor/generator unit.

My vote would be about $7500 for true 200% range before refuel including added weight, inefficiencies.
2. What would be your fuel of choice? Gasoline, CNG, Propane, Diesel?

Lithium Polymer/battery/maybe fuel cell. I didn't buy a Volt, did I? Nor did I. I didn't like the noise level, or the fact that the salesman lowered the tire pressures on all four to try and minimize it. The back seat legroom was poor.

 

[braebyrn]

I'd prefer a second battery module, and would accept a 50% extension. Since I lease, that would be worth another $50 a month. If it had to be ICE, then LPG is the only fuel I'd want. I second (third?) the motion that it be able to provide home power as well.

Yes, a second battery module would be good, but I suppose my dilemma is when you run out of charge, you have to charge and there is a double down time. If we used a ICE motor/generator, then the unit could be running while you are driving or stopped.

 

[braebyrn]

Wouldn't a second battery source require the same heating/cooling/monitoring as the pack in the car already? Maybe a self contained unit? I haven't looked on the board, but its probably already talked about.

 

[braebyrn]

I'd like one that mounts on some sort of a hitch off the back of the car. Make it small and light enough that the owner can install it for long trips. For normal commute, remove it and store it somewhere. No need to carry the weight when you don't need it. Would be nice to also be able to use it to power a house during power outage. No requirement to have the car for that use.

Mounting external makes it
- Easier to mount unmount.
- Quieter when running.
- Easier to refuel. Otherwise you have to figure out how to route fuel line.
- Probably less effect on crash test results.

I'd like one similar to what Mazda has discussed. A 600cc small engine, small gas tank. Optimized for a certain RPM and power output.

I'd only use it for long trips on the highway so it would be important to be able to generate enough power to be able to propel the LEAF at 65-70mph on flat terrain. Can use the battery as a buffer, let it charge the battery when going slower or stopped, can use more power than it can generate when going up hills or for faster stinks. 20-25kw sounds reasonable.
$4k about the upper limit.

And your answer to 3, 6?
1. What would you pay to boost the range in your Leaf lets say by double? $4000
2. What would be your fuel of choice? Gasoline, CNG, Propane, Diesel? Gas
3. How many total units do you think would sell? ?
4. Where would it be best located on the vehicle? Outside the vehicle.
5. How many kW would it need to produce? 20-25kw
6. Should it be a shop install or a owner install? ?

Great comments!

 

[fooljoe]

1. What would you pay to boost the range in your Leaf lets say by double? I'd want indefinite range (with refueling) and said refueling should give range comparable to a gas car. Otherwise what's the point? I'd pay $30/day or so to rent one, more if a one way rental would be possible. I don't think I could justify purchasing one, although I guess doubling as a (way oversized) backup home generator could make that option a bit more attractive.

2. What would be your fuel of choice? Gasoline, CNG, Propane, Diesel? Gasoline of course. Cleaner fuels are nice, but you don't add convenience to an alternative fuel vehicle with another alternative fuel.

3. How many total units do you think would sell? 1000 maybe? Ideally every Nissan dealer should buy at least one and rent it out.

4. Where would it be best located on the vehicle? As a trailer, or possibly on a hitch basket without wheels if it could be made light enough. If a trailer, also providing extra storage would be nice, since you'd be using this for a long road trip, after all.

5. How many kW would it need to produce? 20 at a minimum, preferably 30+ to sustain prolonged travel at 70+ MPH.

6. Should it be a shop install or a owner install? I think you'd have to have a one time shop install to tap into the HV wiring and install some sort of splice and socket and such, after which the owner/renter should be able to connect/remove with relative ease.

 

[xado1]

First the questions:
1. What would you pay to boost the range in your Leaf lets say by double?
-6.000.-$

2. What would be your fuel of choice? Gasoline, CNG, Propane, Diesel?
gasoline/diesel

3. How many total units do you think would sell?
10.000
4. Where would it be best located on the vehicle?
outsdide back/hitch

5. How many kW would it need to produce?
10kw
6. Should it be a shop install or a owner install?
both

 

[adric22]

I actually hope that Nissan makes such a device an OEM option on the next generation Leaf, much like BMW has done. The existing battery and EV range would be plenty adequate knowing that I'd have a backup for those 2% of trips that I need a bit more range.

 

[TomT]

It completely changes the character, complexity and certification of the car and I don't see Nissan doing that. And personally, I find the BMW Rex both silly and expensive, and it compromises the all-electric range as well...

I actually hope that Nissan makes such a device an OEM option on the next generation Leaf, much like BMW has done.

 

[Graffi]

Use the Leaf for what it was intended for, the daily commute and local driving. Even though we have a 2012 ICE, when we make long distance trips we RENT a vehicle, and pay for the insurance. We work out a discount deal with the local manager so he gives us the rate for a smaller car, then free upgrade to larger car.

June 2012 we went from San Diego to Spokane, WA and back, over 2,500 miles. We had a 2012 Toyota Camry with 32mpg avg.

June 2013 we went from San Diego to Oklahoma City, OK and back, again over 2,500 miles. We had a 2013 Chevy Cruze with 35mpg avg.

The reason we do this is so that if anything happens, we call the company and get a replacement car so we can be on our way. It costs more, but we do not risk anything to our car. Now that we have the Leaf, with the ICE as back-up, we still plan to rent for a longer trip this summer.

June 2014 we go from San Diego to Little Rock, AK, then on to Georgia, Florida, mayby even dip our toes (or more) in the Atlantic before we start back driving I-10 West until we get I-8 West in AZ. This time we expect to get a 2014 rental, maybe something that can get us 40+mpg. Even if there were DCQC's along all Interstates every 30 to 40 miles we would still rent. And having this system of DCQC's across the country is the only way that the EV can be a longer distance vehicle, IMHO.

I understand, and support, those of you that wish to use the Leaf for longer trips to help demonstrate the viability of the EV, but why be at the mercy of the "Nissan Tow company" when you get into trouble. Whether it is the BC to BC drive, or Towing a Crown Vic, why risk the health and safety of our precious EV. Let the EV manufacturers do the support of these types of activities with there demo vehicles.

I do understand the excitement of proving it can be done. We did that, on a smaller scale, in October when our Leaf was just over one month old. We had a day trip (Adventure) going to a special Square Dance in Riverside County. It was 115 miles each way. In the ICE that is 1.5 hour drive, 3 hours round trip. In the leaf it was an all day adventure, from 8am to 10pm, with 3 hours at the dance. We will never do that again, but for this trip we wanted an all day ADVENTURE, and we had lots of enjoyable experiences. We used three Nissan dealers each way, 30 min each for one, 1.5 hours each for another, both on L2, and the first and last was about 20 to 25 minutes on and L3 at the first (and last) dealer we stopped at. For those of you Math Geeks out that, the extra time of the trip was slower speed in the leaf, both on the Freeway, and county/state roads where we could drive slower.

Oh, and in case anyone wants to know, We discovered the Joys of Square Dancing 4 years ago, and use our Leaf to go to all the dances, 4 to 5 nights each week. Did I mention that we LOVE Square Dancing!!! The summer trips were to attend the National Square Dance Convention in each of these cities. It goes from Wednesday night until Saturday Night, all day long (9am to 11pm). This year we will continue across the country to visit family. I grew up in south Georgia, not too far from my wife's mother's family. She, however, was raised in San Diego from a baby and stayed here. Her dad was Navy, and retired here.

Happy EVing,
Frank

 

[fooljoe]

Use the Leaf for what it was intended for, the daily commute and local driving. Even though we have a 2012 ICE, when we make long distance trips we RENT a vehicle, and pay for the insurance. We work out a discount deal with the local manager so he gives us the rate for a smaller car, then free upgrade to larger car.

Renting an ICE is certainly a fine solution for occasional long distance trips, but there are other situations where you just can't match taking your own car. What if you'll have an extended stay at your destination, and you know you'll be able to charge your Leaf while you're there and handle all of your needs with it? Someone with a summer house would be a great example of that situation, or a college kid going off to school, etc. What if you have to move frequently and don't want to have to pay $1000 or so to have your car shipped each time?

There are plenty of scenarios like these that will prevent many people from taking the plunge on an EV or force people into buying a Volt over a "pure" EV like the Leaf at present.

 

[adric22]

It completely changes the character, complexity and certification of the car and I don't see Nissan doing that. And personally, I find the BMW Rex both silly and expensive, and it compromises the all-electric range as well...

I actually hope that Nissan makes such a device an OEM option on the next generation Leaf, much like BMW has done.

That's why what BMW has done is brilliant.. its an option. If you want a pure electric, then buy the pure electric. But for those of us that would like the range extender, we can have that too.

I'm insanely curious to see how many BEV vs. REX versions of the i3 will end up selling. This is the first situation where we have a car that can be bought with or without the ICE. Everything else is essentially the same. I know there are minor differences but it isn't like comparing a Leaf to a Volt, for example. I predict the range extended version will sell better in the USA than the BEV. I also suspect Nissan will be keeping a close eye on it. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't already have plans to offer a REX in the next version of the Leaf.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

can't believe anyone would seriously consider and extender that does not use battery power only.

Mods? move this to the Volt forum please

 

[davidcary]

I never understand the Volt hatred.
A gas extender makes perfect sense. A rental even better. If every Nissan dealer had one for rent, that would be great.

I personally think the BMW model is great and I would have gotten the Rex.

A Leaf is good for 95-98%, the other 2% is a total PITA. Using gas for the 2% is not a bad thing - right fuel for right situation (although I'd prefer NG).

The Volt is a great concept - problem is the car is too small. I would have gotten a Volt if it was bigger and maybe if it wasn't a Chevy.

EV purists hate the Volt. But ideology for ideology sake always has its downside. If the Volt gets more people to drive 90% electric, it is a good thing.

 

[fooljoe]

If the Volt gets more people to drive 90% electric, it is a good thing.

Well said. Remember the results of a recent study that pointed out that Volt drivers drive more electric miles than Leaf drivers, even though the Volt has substantially less electric range. Having an optional range extender for a Leaf-like car (to be clear I'd prefer an "optional option" - i.e. something removable and hopefully rentable) could achieve the same thing, and also allow for people to pay less up front for a more capable pure EV and not have to worry about maintaining a mostly unused ICE.