Autoblog article: What good is EV if no electricity...

[ElectricVehicle]

Some members of this forum may be interested in reading and adding comments on http://www.autoblog.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to this story:

What good is an electric vehicle if there's no electricity?
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/28/what-good-is-an-electric-vehicle-if-theres-no-electricity/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indeed, research by the University of Minnesota finds that the number of major power outages has doubled during the last decade – and as FERC's chairman suggested, there's little reason to believe that will get better any time soon.

Yet the grid is being asked to take on a new load, the Obama Administration aiming to drive more than a million plug-in hybrids and pure battery-electric vehicles onto U.S. roads by mid-decade. At anywhere from three kilowatts to as much as 75, the chargers used for vehicles like the Nissan Leaf, Chevrolet Volt or the upcoming Tesla Model S will dwarf the power consumption of even the most energy-hungry home of today. That battery car is very likely to suck down more power than all your plasma TVs, 1000-watt audio systems, desktop computers and air conditioning systems combined.


Imagine hearing warning sirens and finding your car is stuck in the driveway, the battery on "E."
Officials from both the utility and automotive industries insist that consumers are likely to charge up their vehicles overnight, when demand on the grid is lightest – and rates are lowest – for those using special time-dependent circuits. Initial evidence doesn't necessarily support that. If anything, it appears battery car owners are more likely than not to plug in whenever they have a chance.

"I don't want to wait til morning to have my car charged up," says a close friend – himself in the auto industry, hence his request not to be named – "I want my car ready to go at any moment."

 

[Anonymous]

Um.... how is this different than a gas car? In fact, that's even a bigger deal. With no power, the gas stations obviously aren't going to be pumping, but at least my Leaf will be sitting there with a full charge from BEFORE the power went out.

One of the things that I like so much about the Leaf is the ability to "fill up" at home. It's almost always full, no more looking at the gas gauge and going "oh crap, I'm already late but I'm running on fumes and need to stop for a fill-up"!

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

begs the question: "What good is a gas vehicle when the oil runs out?"

 

[abasile]

This seems like FUD. While the instantaneous power draw of an EV charger may be high, the total energy consumed is really not. At any given point in time, only a fraction of all EVs are charging. The grid concerns are overblown.

 

[wsbca]

During the recent southern California power outage, my wife drove our Leaf home past a number of ICE's that were out of gas by the side of the road (many others were in line at gas stations that weren't pumping) - those folks had assumed they'd be able to get gas anywhere, anytime, whereas our vehicle started the day as it does every day, with it's (small) "tank" full. Granted, had the power not come back on (2am), she would not have been able to refill that night, but had the power remained out, she would not have been going in to work the next day anyway (or if she had, she still had another round trip worth of bars), and people without gas would still be out of gas with more joining them. As it was, we were able to refill by the next morning (and, again, anyone still low on gas at that time was still low on gas, not to mention the people whose cars were still abandoned on the freeway.)

I had it even better, as I was on my bike, so not only did I not have fuel worries, I didn't get stuck in traffic for hours.

The lack of understanding of EVs is sometimes amusing - she had people at work who were worried she would not be able to start and drive her car (home) because the grid was down....it's not a trolley! Others were surprised to see her arrive the next day, even though the grid had been back up long enough to perform our normal recharge several times over by then.

 

[smkettner]

'A Glut Of EVs Could Make America's Shoddy Power Grid Even Worse'

Or this could be the boost the companies need to make the needed upgrades. As many charge at night it should make the grid more efficient overall.

 

[Herm]

in a Mad Max scenario, if you had a few solar panels you could fuel your Leaf.. if you are in California your dead neighbors probably have a few they dont need.

Speaking of movies, the new Terra Nova TV series uses electric cars with tiny batteries, all powered by windmills.. and the cars can outrun dinosaurs.

 

[garygid]

If the Grid is down for very long, our whole way of life is in BIG trouble.

Water supplies, sewage, food rotting, transportation (air, ground), most industry, communications, etc. will be down.

A few ships, hospitals, etc. will be functional for a while, but most of us will be totally cut off.

 

[smkettner]

Good point Gary. And for those with solar panels some things will continue somewhat.
During a time of true national emergency I could see gasoline rationing far sooner and more restrictive than electric power.

 

[davewill]

Good point Gary. And for those with solar panels some things will continue somewhat.
During a time of true national emergency I could see gasoline rationing far sooner and more restrictive than electric power.

Not unless you have system with battery storage designed for off-grid operation. Most solar installations are completely useless with the grid down. I agree about the gas rationing in the event of emergency. A war in the wrong place could easily crimp oil supplies.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

The number of comments at the bottom of the page deriding the article suggests to me a turning of the tide. I think we need to keep our eye out for these articles and pounce on misinformation whenever it comes up. It's going to be increasingly difficult for the FUDsters to get away stuff like this as people become more savvy. I declare some progress in the fight!

 

[DaveEV]

Good point Gary. And for those with solar panels some things will continue somewhat.
During a time of true national emergency I could see gasoline rationing far sooner and more restrictive than electric power.

Not unless you have system with battery storage designed for off-grid operation. Most solar installations are completely useless with the grid down.

Would be nice if one could integrate something like a Sunny Island w/the LEAF for when the grid goes down...

Plug your LEAF in to it and the Sunny Island creates your own mini-grid. This lets your PV system run when the sun is shining (and potentially charge up the car if generating a surplus) or draw power from the car if the sun isn't shining or house demands exceed solar generation.

Expensive, though - the Sunny Island costs about $5k. Hard to justify for once-in-a-blue-moon blackouts.

 

[tps]

Would be nice if one could integrate something like a Sunny Island w/the LEAF for when the grid goes down...

Or just get something like an Outback Smartre...

 

[DaveEV]

Would be nice if one could integrate something like a Sunny Island w/the LEAF for when the grid goes down...

Or just get something like an Outback Smartre...

Yeah - but then you still have to buy a lead-acid battery pack. The point is to use your LEAF's battery pack for these situations so you don't have a depreciating asset sitting there doing nothing 99.9% of the time...

 

[tps]

Would be nice if one could integrate something like a Sunny Island w/the LEAF for when the grid goes down...

Or just get something like an Outback Smartre...

Yeah - but then you still have to buy a lead-acid battery pack. The point is to use your LEAF's battery pack for these situations so you don't have a depreciating asset sitting there doing nothing 99.9% of the time...

If the power was out and I couldn't charge the car, I probably wouldn't want to further discahrge it to keep my house running. However, maybe if it would make sense if I could charge the LEAF elsewhere and use its battery to transport power back to my house... For instance, if I could fully charge it at work (where we have a 75 kW backup generator) and run at least a few things in the house when I got home in the evening, that might be interesting. But I plan on doing most of my charging at home, and the power outages are far too short and infrequent to replan my charging scheme.

Many of us already have small versions of the "depricating asset" sitting around already in the form of UPS systems for Internet routers, etc. Laptops will make it through a power "burp" or even some blackouts, however the cable, DSL or FIOS modem won't. (The FIOS optical terminal has battery backup, but the Actiontec FIOS router does not.)

 

[DaveEV]

If the power was out and I couldn't charge the car, I probably wouldn't want to further discahrge it to keep my house running.

No, the point is to use the LEAF and a "Sunny Island" or similar to provide your own local grid with solar panels. The panels will charge your car or power your house when the sun is shining and your car will power the house when it does not. Having 24 kWh of battery is a large battery bank for this type of setup - you could run this way forever. If you need to drive somewhere you'll have to power down the house, but presumably in this sort of situation being able to run the fridge and a few lights will be more important - and you'll be able to charge the car during the day with solar.

 

[smkettner]

At least this is reasonably possible if desired with an electric vehicle. Not going to happen with a gasoline vehicle. When you are out of gas there will be no more until the outage has passed. And as seen in San Diego outage there are always people low on gasoline that will be immediatly stopped with more each day. The electric can use what source is available to make electric and recharge.

 

[tps]

If the power was out and I couldn't charge the car, I probably wouldn't want to further discahrge it to keep my house running.

No, the point is to use the LEAF and a "Sunny Island" or similar to provide your own local grid with solar panels. The panels will charge your car or power your house when the sun is shining and your car will power the house when it does not.

OK, I get it. This probably wouldn't help me that much, because much of the time when the sun is shining, my LEAF and its battery would be at the office; I'd need a separate pack for home. This would be great for those who are retired, work at home, work at night, or whose LEAF is otherwise at their house during the day when it could be charged from the solar array.

 

[DaveEV]

If the power was out and I couldn't charge the car, I probably wouldn't want to further discahrge it to keep my house running.

No, the point is to use the LEAF and a "Sunny Island" or similar to provide your own local grid with solar panels. The panels will charge your car or power your house when the sun is shining and your car will power the house when it does not.

OK, I get it. This probably wouldn't help me that much, because much of the time when the sun is shining, my LEAF and its battery would be at the office; I'd need a separate pack for home. This would be great for those who are retired, work at home, work at night, or whose LEAF is otherwise at their house during the day when it could be charged from the solar array.

The whole point was to allow your normally grid-tied PV system to work when when the grid was down - and to allow your LEAF to power your house when the grid is down and the sun isn't shining.

Presumably in both of those situations you'll be at home with your car.

The biggest problem is the cost of such a device - presently it seems that any type of similar device is too expensive to justify for very occasional use...

 

[tps]

much of the time when the sun is shining, my LEAF and its battery would be at the office;

The whole point was to allow your normally grid-tied PV system to work when when the grid was down - and to allow your LEAF to power your house when the grid is down and the sun isn't shining.

Presumably in both of those situations you'll be at home with your car.

Since my car would not be at home much of the time when the sun was shining, how would the battery get charged?

One doesn't need much of a battery if the goal is simply to run grid-tie inverters during the day in off-grid mode. What you need is a smallish off-grid inverter to provide the reference, and a very small battery, mainly to get things started, and a 120VAC battery charger to keep the battery topped off once the grid-tie inverters start up. Of course, you're wasting a little energy heating up the inverter, battery and battery charger.

However, doing what you're saying and using the LEAF's battery as part of an off-grid system is a good start at understanding the true value of the "infinite battery" which the electric utility provides to customers with grid-tie PV systems. Which is not to say that it's not a synergistic relationship, because highest PV generation comes around the time when the utility needs the power most...