Amended Settlement in Klee v. Nissan

[mwalsh]

It is amazing how there was not any warranty, and then after some real world data comes in they figure out a warranty period that will keep them from replacing most of the bad packs.

So far it feels there are more people here who actually got their packs replaced under warranty than those who do not/will not qualify. But it could be just a distorted perception as I'm biased being on the wrong side of 60k miles.

When the warranty first came out I was very pleased. Then I became angry when Nissan retroactively tied it to the settlement and started to take a real look at it. I figured exactly what Valdemar suggests above - that the warranty was engineered to favor Nissan - and decided to opt out of the settlement. Just take a look back at my posts from that time if you have a hard time believing that.

Then, as palmermd mentions, it started to look like Nissan had goofed and would be on the wrong side of the gambit, so when the opportunity to opt back in came up I decided to roll the dice and try for a replacment. It was work, for sure, and for a while there I didn't think it was going to happen for me. But whether through skill or luck I did manage it, and so here I sit with a car that is good for another few years. Ironically, I suppose, my life changed towards the end of last year and I no longer need the daily range I did when I first got the LEAF.

As for the winter and springtime deliveries that are now just starting to fall short of warranty coverage, I still think they've been impacted more by the climactic conditions at this time of year than anything else. If we start to see more cars that were summer and fall deliveries qualify than fail to, I think this hypothesis will be pretty well supported, and my advice to anyone with a winter or springtime car with 9 bars will continue to be drive the living heck out of the car during the heat of the last summer before your warranty expires.

 

[palmermd]

I think you completely missed my point. Seems to be a problem I have on these forums, that people read my posts exactly opposite to how I intend them.

My point was that Nissan waited for data before creating the warranty and created it such that it is in their favor, and most of the cars will not be eligible. That is exactly what is happening to mine. I'm going to miss the warranty by 5 months and 5,000 miles or so. The car is already having a hard time reaching destinations that were quite easy when it was new. It seems the only people who are getting these replacements are the ones "flogging" their cars to make sure it gets there, otherwise it would not. I've got about six weeks to go, and I don't think it will make it no matter what I do at this point. I'm stuck with a car that barely goes 50 miles and I did not get any free charge cards, and the car is worth about nothing in the resale market. I got a letter from the local Nissan dealer a month or so ago saying they would give me $7000 for it. What a laugh.

 

[JPWhite]

my advice to anyone with a winter or springtime car with 9 bars will continue to be drive the living heck out of the car during the heat of the last summer before your warranty expires.

I'm a July 2011 LEAF'er with 9 bars with every intention of driving the heck out of the LEAF. However at 82,800 miles and adding 2,000 miles/month I don't think I will qualify.

 

[mwalsh]

I think you completely missed my point. Seems to be a problem I have on these forums, that people read my posts exactly opposite to how I intend them.

My point was that Nissan waited for data before creating the warranty and created it such that it is in their favor, and most of the cars will not be eligible. That is exactly what is happening to mine. I'm going to miss the warranty by 5 months and 5,000 miles or so. The car is already having a hard time reaching destinations that were quite easy when it was new. It seems the only people who are getting these replacements are the ones "flogging" their cars to make sure it gets there, otherwise it would not. I've got about six weeks to go, and I don't think it will make it no matter what I do at this point. I'm stuck with a car that barely goes 50 miles and I did not get any free charge cards, and the car is worth about nothing in the resale market. I got a letter from the local Nissan dealer a month or so ago saying they would give me $7000 for it. What a laugh.

Yeah. I've re-read it over and over again, and I still don't get that ^ from what you wrote in the post I responded to.

 

[Evoforce]

I think you completely missed my point. Seems to be a problem I have on these forums, that people read my posts exactly opposite to how I intend them.

My point was that Nissan waited for data before creating the warranty and created it such that it is in their favor, and most of the cars will not be eligible. That is exactly what is happening to mine. I'm going to miss the warranty by 5 months and 5,000 miles or so. The car is already having a hard time reaching destinations that were quite easy when it was new. It seems the only people who are getting these replacements are the ones "flogging" their cars to make sure it gets there, otherwise it would not. I've got about six weeks to go, and I don't think it will make it no matter what I do at this point. I'm stuck with a car that barely goes 50 miles and I did not get any free charge cards, and the car is worth about nothing in the resale market. I got a letter from the local Nissan dealer a month or so ago saying they would give me $7000 for it. What a laugh.

I did not HAVE to do anything to degrade my pack on purpose. Apparently, the hotter climate I live in is too much for Nissan's battery as designed. That said, you can bet that if I was close to not making a new battery under warranty, I would HAVE to seriously consider using my pack to the fullest in order to qualify. I don't blame anyone that finds themselves in this situation when it was sold to consumers that it would last much longer...

The heat tolerant battery is a FAIL for hotter climates and Nissan promoted it would be better. Maybe there is something I don't know, but the 30kWh and 60kWh battery, as designed, leaves me VERY skeptical that they are any more durable for hotter climates. I hope I am wrong, and they can prove it to me soon, before I "pass" on buying Nissan and opt for something else.

I would have preferred to buy from Nissan because they were a leader in delivering a purely electric vehicle to the world. I like that they stepped up to the plate and now have helped drag others into the game. I really like and promote the Leaf to others, but their battery durability issues SUCK to have to explain and include, in the overall GREAT product called the Nissan Leaf... Nissan fix your battery and PROVE it to your enthusiasts and potential future customers.

 

[mwalsh]

The heat tolerant battery is a FAIL for hotter climates and Nissan promoted it would be better. Maybe there is something I don't know, but the 30kWh and 60kWh battery, as designed, leaves me VERY skeptical that they are any more durable for hotter climates. I hope I am wrong, and they can prove it to me soon, before I "pass" on buying Nissan and opt for something else.

While I've been willing to wait a while and see what happens with my own replacement pack, I'm already sort of in your camp - I started out at about 2kWh down from where I expected a brand new pack to start out and I've appeared to have been loosing capacity from day one, during winter no less! And I'm not optimistic that things will improve after I have given it a few months. OTOH, I got a new pack for free so anything is better than nothing. However, if I'd paid out of pocket I might be well on the way to being pretty PO'd right now.

 

[palmermd]

I fully understand that these packs are failing and getting replaced in the hot climates. Most everyone in Arizona is going to get theirs replaced. We've clearly seen this here on MNL, and if it were not for the work of all the Leaf owners in Arizona we would not have such a large working knowledge of the weakness of the battery. But the way Nissan created the warranty by waiting for a lot of data to come in before even developing one, they were able to see just how to set the limits such that they would have as few cars as possible require the replacement. For example, I live in what many would consider a hot climate. Not as hot as Arizona, but we have dozens of days over 100 in the summer, but we do get cooler winters, and even in summer when we have 100+ during the day it gets down into the 60's at night. My car will unfortunately not qualify to be replaced under warranty, but will be seriously degraded, and well beyond what they were publishing at the time I purchased the car. 80% remaining after 10 years or something like that, maybe it was 70% at 10 years. I'm at 70% in 5 years, but I don't qualify to get it fixed unless I get down to about 66%.

Sorry for venting today, but its been frustrating. I did notice that on the day that my battery warranty expires is the same day that Tesla is going to finally reveal some images of their Model 3. I'm hoping that this car will make it to 2018 when I can swap it for Model 3.

 

[GerryAZ]

Anyone who opted out (and did not opt back in) and loses the 9th bar before 5 years and 60,000 miles has a strong argument for warranty replacement (or at least repair to 9 bars) if, like me, they received the warranty information direct from Nissan long before receiving anything about the class action lawsuit. My 2011 dropped to 8 bars after I received the warranty information and before I received anything about the class action. Nissan Customer Service called me and asked me to take the car to the dealer so they could run some tests and schedule a battery replacement. I received the class action notification while waiting for the replacement battery to arrive from Japan. The Customer Service representative called me every week to update the status of the battery delivery so I asked him point blank about the class action and how it would impact the warranty already provided by Nissan. He told me that they did not know, but that my battery was on its way. I sent the opt out paperwork in after my new battery was installed and there were no questions raised by either Nissan or plaintiff attorneys. I received information from the plaintiff attorneys about the revised settlement and offering me the chance to opt back in after my 2011 was totaled. I remained out of the settlement class because I believe the whole lawsuit was just a way for the plaintiff attorneys to collect an obnoxiously large fee for very little effort. Especially after Nissan had already provided a retroactive warranty that matched the warranty included with 2013 and newer cars.

Gerry

 

[JPWhite]

I hope I am wrong, and they can prove it to me soon, before I "pass" on buying Nissan and opt for something else.

Me too.

But just in case I am right I'm gonna reserve my place in line for a Model 3 on the 31st March. :!:

 

[Reddy]

I fully understand that these packs are failing and getting replaced in the hot climates. Most everyone in Arizona is going to get theirs replaced. We've clearly seen this here on MNL, and if it were not for the work of all the Leaf owners in Arizona we would not have such a large working knowledge of the weakness of the battery. But the way Nissan created the warranty by waiting for a lot of data to come in before even developing one, they were able to see just how to set the limits such that they would have as few cars as possible require the replacement. For example, I live in what many would consider a hot climate. Not as hot as Arizona, but we have dozens of days over 100 in the summer, but we do get cooler winters, and even in summer when we have 100+ during the day it gets down into the 60's at night. My car will unfortunately not qualify to be replaced under warranty, but will be seriously degraded, and well beyond what they were publishing at the time I purchased the car. 80% remaining after 10 years or something like that, maybe it was 70% at 10 years. I'm at 70% in 5 years, but I don't qualify to get it fixed unless I get down to about 66%.

Sorry for venting today, but its been frustrating. I did notice that on the day that my battery warranty expires is the same day that Tesla is going to finally reveal some images of their Model 3. I'm hoping that this car will make it to 2018 when I can swap it for Model 3.

It sounds like our temperature conditions and battery degradation are similar. I need to look up the exact 5 yr warranty wording (I think it was 80% with all the appropriate weasel words), but you might consider filing with the BBB. Get a real 5 yr testing of the battery and submit for replacement. What's the worst that can happen?

 

[JPWhite]

I need to look up the exact 5 yr warranty wording (I think it was 80% with all the appropriate weasel words),

If my memory serves me right I don't think % is a weasel word. I believe it talks about losing 4 bars to be considered for warranty, [weasel] capacity bars [/weasel] being the weasel words.

I believe 4 bars represents 66% of original capacity.

 

[Reddy]

I need to look up the exact 5 yr warranty wording (I think it was 80% with all the appropriate weasel words),

If my memory serves me right I don't think % is a weasel word. I believe it talks about losing 4 bars to be considered for warranty, [weasel] capacity bars [/weasel] being the weasel words.

I believe 4 bars represents 66% of original capacity.

Sorry, I didn't say that clear enough. I don't mean the settlement warranty, but the one that came with the car back in 2010 long before the AZ cars started losing bars. For those who opted out of the settlement, that original warranty should still be valid. If I remember, I'll pull out the book in my car tonight.

 

[cwerdna]

I need to look up the exact 5 yr warranty wording (I think it was 80% with all the appropriate weasel words),

If my memory serves me right I don't think % is a weasel word. I believe it talks about losing 4 bars to be considered for warranty, [weasel] capacity bars [/weasel] being the weasel words.

I believe 4 bars represents 66% of original capacity.

Sorry, I didn't say that clear enough. I don't mean the settlement warranty, but the one that came with the car back in 2010 long before the AZ cars started losing bars. For those who opted out of the settlement, that original warranty should still be valid. If I remember, I'll pull out the book in my car tonight.

I’m confused by your posts. Prior to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192 from Jun 2013, there was no battery capacity at all. Sure, there was and still is an 8 year/100K battery defects warranty (e.g. bad cell, car unable to move due to a problem in the pack, etc.) but it does not cover “gradual” capacity loss.

 

[GerryAZ]

The retroactive capacity warranty for 2011 and 2012 Leafs that Nissan sent out before the class action notification had the same wording as the warranty for 2013 through 2015 Leafs--repair battery if capacity drops below 9 bars for 5 years or 60,000 miles. The only written documentation from Nissan with capacity in percent is the disclosure form that must be signed when purchasing a new Leaf. As I recall, the disclosure form for the 2015 was no different than the form for the 2011.

Gerry

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I think you completely missed my point. Seems to be a problem I have on these forums, that people read my posts exactly opposite to how I intend them.

My point was that Nissan waited for data before creating the warranty and created it such that it is in their favor, and most of the cars will not be eligible. That is exactly what is happening to mine. I'm going to miss the warranty by 5 months and 5,000 miles or so. The car is already having a hard time reaching destinations that were quite easy when it was new. It seems the only people who are getting these replacements are the ones "flogging" their cars to make sure it gets there, otherwise it would not. I've got about six weeks to go, and I don't think it will make it no matter what I do at this point. I'm stuck with a car that barely goes 50 miles and I did not get any free charge cards, and the car is worth about nothing in the resale market. I got a letter from the local Nissan dealer a month or so ago saying they would give me $7000 for it. What a laugh.

you pretty much just redefined warranty. a warranty is NOT supposed to cover most of us. so Nissan got it right

 

[palmermd]

Not true. If someone makes something and 100% of them fail to meet the stated expectation of the device when it was sold then they will have to replace ALL of them.

If they had a warranty that matched the stated expectation when they sold the cars in 2010/2011 then they would be replacing them all.


Where I will give them credit is that I purchased this car without any warranty whatsoever. So my bad for buying it. What is upsetting is that I am going to just miss their arbitrary cutoff and thereby having a fully degraded pack. Unfortunately I'm in the worst case situation. If I lived in the Pacific Northwest and had far less degradation it would not be so bad.

 

[DaveEV]

you pretty much just redefined warranty. a warranty is NOT supposed to cover most of us. so Nissan got it right

No, you just redefined warranty.

A warranty is supposed to provide assurance to customers that the product they purchased will perform as advertised for a period of time after purchase and will replace or repair said product if it fails to do so.

Warranty's say nothing about how many people it will cover.

 

[GRA]

you pretty much just redefined warranty. a warranty is NOT supposed to cover most of us. so Nissan got it right

No, you just redefined warranty.

A warranty is supposed to provide assurance to customers that the product they purchased will perform as advertised for a period of time after purchase and will replace or repair said product if it fails to do so.

Warranty's say nothing about how many people it will cover.

Indeed. Dave's definition of a warranty is the manufacturer's goal; typically, auto manufacturers aim for <1% warranty claims, and offer warranties accordingly. Nissan choose not to offer one, and ran up against people's expectations that a durable good should be durable, and live up to their marketing claims.

 

[QueenBee]

The retroactive capacity warranty for 2011 and 2012 Leafs that Nissan sent out before the class action notification had the same wording as the warranty for 2013 through 2015 Leafs--repair battery if capacity drops below 9 bars for 5 years or 60,000 miles. The only written documentation from Nissan with capacity in percent is the disclosure form that must be signed when purchasing a new Leaf. As I recall, the disclosure form for the 2015 was no different than the form for the 2011.

While not a formal written contract I would consider this to be written, though we know it to be a complete lie, unless you consider approximately 7 percentage points lower to be approximately 70%.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=253595

A vehicle whose battery has nine remaining bars indicated on the gauge is retaining approximately 70 percent of its original battery capacity.

And not written or a formal contract but Andy Palmer reiterates his earlier set expectations of 80% after 5 years and 70% after 10 years.

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/nissans-andy-palmer-explains-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-chelsea-sexton

 

[DaveEV]

While not a formal written contract I would consider this to be written, though we know it to be a complete lie, unless you consider approximately 7 percentage points lower to be approximately 70%.

It also depends on whether or not the LBC is underestimating capacity of the pack or not. It could very well be under reporting capacity.

In fact, if you look at TickTock's well kept data, at the point he lost his 4th bar, the most recent data point had 16.88 kWh from the wall to recharge from turtle. That comes to 24.1 kWh which is about what you'd expect to pull from the wall to recharge a new LEAF. It may be slightly lower since I recall some other data points around 25 kWh, so I don't think it's off by too much. I sure wish that were the case, though. I suppose if missed warranty and really wanted to fight them on it, it's probably your best bet.

TickTock's LeafLog