AltCar Expo: Santa Monica, CA - 9/28 to 9/29/12

[rumpole]

To all who are going: Don't forget to take lots of nice pictures and post them for the rest of us. I would love to go, but I can't really swing a plane trip across country for it.

 

[tbleakne]

A few observations on this year's Alt Car Expo.

It was fun to meet cwerdna, visiting from the Bay Area, and fun to visit with mwalsh, 91040 and tbleakne, as always. We had a chance to chat with Dave Peterson (spelling?) (nice young guy from Nissan product planning who's on a panel Saturday), and Tim Gallagher, Nissan's west coast PR guy.

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I drove the ones marked (*)

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Toyota RAV 4 EV (about 4 ea) (*)
Toyota Prius hybrid, Toyota Prius V hybrid, Toyota Prius Plug-In hybrid, Toyota Prius C hybrid (I didn't

The stand-out EV at the drive event was.................. The Toyota RAV 4 EV. It had the longest lines to test drive, so get there early on Saturday and go to the RAV 4 line first. It was beautifully finished inside and out, well equipped, had great visibility, very promising driving range of over 100 miles (it should, with a pack size over 40 kWh), and it really hauls the mail, especially in Sport mode. I squealed the tires twice without really trying. I detected some creep from rest, but it was pretty slight creep (mwalsh disagreed, he thought that there wasn't any creep.). Brakes felt capable and strong. Regen didn't feel particularly strong (tbleakne agreed, and he put the car in B mode). Instruments are clear and visible but tbleakne commented that he found the regen power display too dim to see easily.

If I wanted an SUV sized EV, and if the range boost over a LEAF made much difference to me, I'd be all over a lease on the RAV. It's also the cheapest and fastest way to get your hands on Tesla technology. Downside is that there is no QC capability, but the standard onboard charger is 10 kW, three times faster than the LEAF's.

.

My comments on RAV4 EV:
I am concerned that its driving range compared to a new LEAF might be considerably less than 40/24, the ratio of the battery sizes.
+700 lbs will impact uphill range. The added weight is much more than just the Tesla battery pack. The doors are not Al, and there has been size creep over the original RAV4.
Unless Regen is robust, you won't be able to recover the uphill potential energy on downhill.
It appears the tires may not be low Rolling Resistance. If so, this, combined with added weight, will impact level range.
Although the drag coefficients are very similar, RAV4 EV has larger frontal area, perhaps 12-15% ?

The charger is 40A input at 240V, vs 16A for 2011/2012 LEAF, 32A for 2013 LEAF
2.5X or 1.25X, not 3X.
This, combined with lower miles/kWh, might make the 2013 LEAF out-perform in miles per hour of L2 charge, especially since 40A L2 will be rare outside Toyota dealerships.

Minor pluses over LEAF:
Driver/passenger dual climate control.
Power-folding side mirrors
LED running lights

Not sure weather it has battery temperature or battery capacity readouts.

 

[sparky]

Thanks for the write-ups Boomer and tbleakne.
I hadn't thought of going this year but maybe I will go early Sunday and try to get a quick session behind the wheel of the Honda Fit. Naturally, I'm bummed there's no Tesla presence; RAV4 battery notwithstanding. I figured the RAV4 wasn't a good value, and I'm disappointed in Toyota's recent change of heart with EVs. But perhaps looking at the finished product might change my mind.

 

[Boomer23]

Ok, as requested, pictures below. (I'm rarely without a camera.)

RAV 4 EV:

 

[Boomer23]

RAV4 EV interior and Federal sticker.

Note shifter straight from a Prius.

 

[Boomer23]

Ford C-Max Hybrid

 

[Boomer23]

Three Coda sedans and the Ford Focus EV alongside the C-Max Hybrid for size and style comparison

 

[Boomer23]

Prototype Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid: First showing in public.

Honda FCX Clarity Hyrdrogen Fuel Cell EV (maroon), with Honda Fit EV in the background (blue)

 

[91040]

The event ends today, Saturday!

Thanks for the write-ups Boomer and tbleakne.
I hadn't thought of going this year but maybe I will go early Sunday and try to get a quick session behind the wheel of the Honda Fit. Naturally, I'm bummed there's no Tesla presence; RAV4 battery notwithstanding. I figured the RAV4 wasn't a good value, and I'm disappointed in Toyota's recent change of heart with EVs. But perhaps looking at the finished product might change my mind.

 

[sparky]

The event ends today, Saturday!

Thanks for the write-ups Boomer and tbleakne.
I hadn't thought of going this year but maybe I will go early Sunday and try to get a quick session behind the wheel of the Honda Fit. Naturally, I'm bummed there's no Tesla presence; RAV4 battery notwithstanding. I figured the RAV4 wasn't a good value, and I'm disappointed in Toyota's recent change of heart with EVs. But perhaps looking at the finished product might change my mind.

Well, one less thing for me to do on Sunday I guess! Thanks for the heads up.

 

[cwerdna]

It was fun to meet cwerdna, visiting from the Bay Area, and fun to visit with mwalsh, 91040 and tbleakne, as always. We had a chance to chat with Dave Peterson (spelling?) (nice young guy from Nissan product planning who's on a panel Saturday), and Tim Gallagher, Nissan's west coast PR guy.
...
There's charging available in the parking lot at Alt Car, but all five or six EVSEs were claimed by 10 am Friday when we arrived. We were able to charge at nearby Santa Monica Place mall, where there are four Chargepoints and a Clipper Creek, and there are a few down at the Pier. As 91040 mentioned, there is an AV Quick Charger and about three AV level 2 EVSEs on the grounds, but they are inside the ride-and-drive perimeter and would be hard to get to without special permission. I assume that they are really there to charge the ride-and-drive cars.

Yeah, it was nice meeting you folks. It was cool that the young Nissan guy heard our thoughts on the AZ/TX degradation issue.

I'll have post more about the event and impressions when I get home. I'm currently at a friend's place in San Gabriel and am meeting w/15+ Priuschatters (and whoever they're bringing) in Irvine for dim sum on Sunday. Then, I'm driving back home to the Bay Area.

FWIW, the Wheego was by far the worst vehicle I drove. What a hunk of junk w/a very noisy AC compressor and non-adjustable (titled way too high) steering column. Their asking price is nuts vs. the price of a Leaf, FFE or i-Miev. Coda was the 2nd worst and not impressive either. The drivetrain was very loud and their regen was funky (I guess for those who like Tesla's style of 1 pedal driving, I guess it's ok).

The FFE was quite a nice car and quite refined.

The list of cars available for test drive had some mistakes. Smart ED was not available to drive and the one they had on display was the very slow version (w/Tesla technology in it).

As for charging, I talked to the AV guys. They had their AV L2 EVSEs + 1 CHAdeMO set up and someone else provided the generator. They were for the sole purpose of charging the test drive vehicles. If I had a Leaf, he did say that I probably could've gotten permission to use their CHAdeMO charger.

Nissan brought their big tow generator w/CHAdeMO charger from Arizona (I'll have to put up the pic later). It was being towed by a Nissan Armada. I saw one of the workers charging up a test drive Leaf.

Side note: I test drove a Leaf 2x, on two different days. I did mention to the 2nd guy that I had two Nissan before and my mom has a NAH and things seemed friendly.

Near the end, I mentioned how I didn't like NMAC's terms where if you transfer the lease, the primary guy is still on the hook. I mentioned that when I called NMAC to ask about that and told them my feedback is I don't like that stipulation. That seemed to have hit a nerve w/him and he strongly disagreed w/my POV (that sometimes people have circumstances and need to transfer, it's not like people are doing it for profit). I doubt my feedback via him will be making it up the chain... :/

Sparky: You missed out!

 

[Boomer23]

My most amusing conversation at the show:

I was at the Honda table inside the exhibit hall, chatting with the Honda rep lady and an attendee about my age, mid-60s, about the Honda Fit EV and BEVs in general. The man mentioned that he is interested in the idea of a BEV, but that he has range anxiety. That pushes my "on" switch, so I talked about my experience living with a BEV for 18 months, and how I don't let range anxiety stop me, that I choose which car to take based on the planned driving distance the LEAF's current SOC. I then asked him if he had a second car or if he needed one car to serve all of his needs. His response cracked me up. He said "Oh, we have four cars". OK, range anxiety in a four car family? :lol:

EV makers, you have a long road ahead of you... :roll: